>>We're back at the red hat summit, 2022, the Cube's continuous coverage. This is day one. We're here all day tomorrow as well. My name is Dave LAN. I'm here with Paul Gillon. Matt Hicks is here. He's executive vice president of products and technologies at red hat. Matt. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. Nice to see you face to >>Face. Thanks. Thanks Dave. Thanks fall. It's uh, good to be here. >>So you took a different tack with your, uh, keynote today, had a homage to ate a love lace and Serena VA Ramian, which was kind of cool. And your, your point was they weren't noted at their time and nobody was there to build on their early ideas. I mean, ate a lovely, I think it was a century before, right. Ram illusion was a, you know, decade plus, but, and you tied that to open source. You can give us your kind of bumper sticker of your premise there. >>Yeah. You know, I think I have a unique seat in this from red hat where we see, we see new engineers that come in that sort of compete on a world stage and open source and the, the best, which is easy to track just in contributions are not necessarily from the background you would expect them from. And, and it, for me, it's always really inspiring. Like you have this potential in, in people and open source is a great model for getting that out. We told the history story, cuz it, I think when you look over history, just some of that potential that's been ignored before. Um, sure. It's happening right now. But getting that tied into open source models, we think can hopefully let us tap into a little more than, than we have in the past. So >>Greatly. So when you're thinking about innovation and specific to open source, is it a case where I wonder, I really know the history here of open source. Maybe you can educate me. Is it the case where open source observes, uh, a de factacto standard let's say, or some other proprietary approach and says, Hey, we can build that in open and that's so the, the inspiration, or is it an innovation flywheel that just invents? >>I think it's both at this stage. So in the, in the early days, if you take something like Linux, it was a little more of, you know, there was the famous memo of like, this is gonna be a hobbyist project. We're just gonna light up X 86 hardware and have an operating system we can work with. That was a little more of like this standards were there, but it was, can we just build a better operating system with it, be >>Better than Unix cuz would live up to the promise of units. >>That's right. Where in Unix you had some standardization to models, but it wasn't open in that same sense. Uh, Linux has gone well beyond a hobbyist project at this point. Uh, but that was maybe that clone model, um, to units these days though, if you take something like Kubernetes or take something like Ansible, that's just more pure innovation, you didn't necessarily have a Kubernetes model that you're building a better version of it was distributed computing and how can we really make that tick and, um, bring a lot of great minds into that to build it. Um, so I think you see both of 'em, which is it's one of the things that makes open source fun. Like it, it has a broad reach at this point. >>There's one major area of software that opensource has not penetrated yet. And that is applications. I mean, we, there have been, you know, sugar CRM there have been open E R P applications and, and such, none of them really taken off and in fact tend to be drawn back to being proprietary. Why do you suppose opensource has been limited to infrastructure and has hasn't branched out further? >>Yeah, I think part of it is, uh, where can you find a, a model where lots of different companies are, are comfortable contributing into, if you have one solution and one domain from one company you're gonna struggle more getting a real vibrant community built around that. When you pick an area like infrastructure or core platforms, you have a lot of hardware providers, the use cases span from traditional apps to AI. You have a lot of places to run that it's a massive companies. So >>Volume really, it, >>It really is. You just have an interest that spans beyond companies and that's where we've seen open source projects really pick up and build critical mass. How about crypto >>Dows? I mean, that's right. Isn't that the, a form of open source? I mean, is it, isn't that the application really what exactly what you're talking about? It is true or >>It, well, if you look at cryptography encryption algorithms even go to, um, quantum going forward, I think a lot of quantum access will be driven in an open source model. The machines themselves, uh, will be machines, but things like kids kit, uh, that is how most people will access that. So it is a powerful model for getting into areas that are, um, pretty bleeding edge on it as well. >>We were talking, go ahead. We were talking before Andy mentioned that hardware and software increasingly intersecting. That was the theme we heard at the, at the keynote this morning. Yeah. Why do you believe that's happening and how do you see that? How does that affect what you do? >>Uh, I, I think the reason that's happening is there is a push to make decisions closer and closer to users on it because on one side, like law of physics and then on the other of it's just a better experience for it. And so whether that is in transportation or it's in telecommunications, so you see this push outside of data centers to be able to get at that data locally for it. Uh, but if that's the draw, I think also we're seeing hardware architectures are changing. There are, um, standards like arm that are lower power that lets you run pretty powerful compute at the edge as well. And I think it's that combination saying we can do a lot at the edge now and that actually benefits us building user experiences in a lot of different domains is, is making this pull to the edge, uh, really quickly. But it's, it's a, it's an exciting time to be seeing that happening >>And, and, and pretty powerful is almost an understatement. When you think about what the innovations that are going on. Right. I mean, in, in, in, in particular, at the edge mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I mean, you're seeing Moore's law be blown. Everybody says Moore's law is dead, but you're seeing the performance of when you combine the GPU and the CPU and the NPU and the Excel. I mean, it blows away anything we've historically known. Yeah. So you think about the innovations in software that occurred as a result of Moore's law. What are the new beachheads that we could potentially see in open source? >>I think when you start taking the, um, AI patterns on this and AI is a broad space, but if you go even to like machine learning of optimization type use cases, you start, uh, leveraging how you're gonna train those models, which gets you into, you know, CPUs and GPU and TPUs in that world. And then you also have the, how am I gonna take that train model, put it on a really lightweight device and efficiently ask that model questions. And that gets you into a different architecture design. Uh, but that combination, I think we're gonna see these domains build differently where you have mass compute training type capabilities, and then push that as close to the user, as you can, to make decisions that are more dynamic than traditional codes. >>So a lot of the AI that's done today is modeling that's done in the cloud. Yep. And what you're talking about at the edge, and you think about, you know, vehicles is real time influencing. Yep. And that's, that's massive amounts of data. It's a different architecture. Right. And requires different hardware presumably and different software. So, and you guys, well, Linux is obviously there. Yeah. >>That's, that is the, where we get excited about things like the GM announcement you are in the square, in that, um, aspect of running compute right at the end user and actually dealing with sensor and data, that's changing there to help, you know, in this case, like driver's assistance capabilities with it. But I think that the innovation we'll see in that space will be limitless on it. So it's, it's a nice combination of it too. And you'll still have traditional applications that are gonna use those models. I think of it almost as it's like the new middleware, we have our traditional middleware techniques that we know and patterns. Um, they will actually be augmented with things like, um, machine learning models and those capabilities to just be more dynamic. So it's a fun time right now seeing >>That conversion a lot of data too. And again, I wonder how much of that is even gonna be persisted prob probably enough, cuz there's gonna be so much of it, how much it'll come back to the cloud a lot, but maybe not most of it, but it's still massive amounts relative to what we've seen before >>It is. And this is, you know, you've heard our announcement around OpenShift streams in those capabilities. So in red hat, what we do, we will always focus on hybrid with it because a lot of that data it'll be dropped at the edge cuz you won't need it, but the data you act on and the data you need, you will probably need at your indice and in your cloud. And maybe even on premise and capabilities like Kafka and the ability to pick and stream and stay consistent. We think there's a set of really exciting services to be able to enable that class of development where, um, hopefully we'll be at the center of, of that. >>You, you announced, uh, today an agreement with GM, uh, to, to build on their all to five platform, uh, auto industry, very proprietary historically, uh, with their technology. Do you think that this is an opportunity to crank that open? >>A absolutely. I think in, I've been involved with opensource for, for a while, but I think all of them started in a very proprietary model. And then you get to a tipping point where open source models can just unlock more innovation than proprietary models and you see 'em tip and flip. And I think in the automotive industry and actually in a lot of other industries, the capabilities of being able to combine hardware and software fast with the latest capabilities, it'll drive more innovation than just sticking to proprietary models. So yeah, I believe it will be one of many things to come there. >>You've been involved in open surf for a while. Like how long of a while people must joke about when they look at you, Matt, they must say, oh, did you start when you were five? Yeah. >>It's >>Uh, you get that a lot. >>I, I do, uh, it's my, my children, I think aged me a bit, but uh, but yeah, for me it was the mid nineties. That's when I started with, uh, with open source. >>It was uh, wow. So >>It's been a long, long >>Run. You made the statement in your keynote, that software development is, is, is messy. I presumably part of your job is to make it less messy. But now we talk about all this, these new beachheads, this new new innovations, a lot of it's unknown. Yeah. And it could be really messy. So who are the, who is there a new breed of developer that's emerging? Are they gonna come over from the cloud developers or is it the, is it the OT crowd and the, and the OT crowd? That's gonna be the new developers. >>I, I wish I knew, but I would say, I think you, I do think you'll get to almost like a laws of physics type challenge where you won't learn everything. You're not gonna know, uh, the depths of 5g implementation and Kubernetes and Linux on that. And so for us, this is where ecosystem providers are really, really critical where you have to know your intersection points, but you also have to partner really well to actually drive innovation in some of these spaces cuz uh, the domains themselves are massive on it. So our areas we're gonna know hybrid, we're gonna know, you know, open source based platforms to enable hybrid. And then we're gonna partner with companies that know their domains and industries really well to bring solutions to customers. So >>I'm curious about partnering, uh, cuz Paul cor may mentioned that as well as, as being critical, do you have sort of a template for partnering or is each partnership unique? >>Um, >>I think at this point, uh, the market's changing so fast that, uh, we do have templates of, uh, who are you going to embed solutions with? Who are you going to co-sell with? And co-create uh, the challenge in technology though, is it shifts so quickly. If you go back five years, maybe even 10 years, public cloud probably wasn't as dominant. Um, as it is now, now we're starting to see the uptick of edge solutions, probably being, having as much draw as public cloud. And so I think for us, the partnership follows the innovation on those curves and finding the right model where that works for customers is the key thing for us. But I wish there was more of a pattern. We could say it stays stable for decades, but I think it changes with the market on, we do that. >>But you know, it's funny cuz you you've, you see every 15 years or so the industry gets disrupted. I mean we certainly saw it with mainframes and PC and then the internet and then the cloud, uh, you guys have kind of been there. Well Linux throughout, I mean, okay. It built the, built the internet, built the cloud, it's building the edge. So it's almost, I don't wanna say your disruption proof cause that's just, that's gonna jinx you, but, but in, but you've architected the products in a way that they're compatible with these new errors. Mm-hmm <affirmative> of industry, >>Everything needs an operating >>System. Everything needs an operating system, but you've seen operating systems come and go, you know, and, and Linux has survived so many different waves. Why, how >>You know, I, I think for us, when you see open source projects, they definitely get to a critical mass where you have so much contribution, so much innovation there that they're gonna be able to follow the trends pretty well. If you look at a Linux, whatever the next hardware innovation that comes out is Linux has enough gravity that, um, it's open, it's successful, you're gonna design to it. The capability will be there. I think you're seeing similar things in Kubernetes now where if you're going to try to drive application innovation, it is a model that gives you a ton of reach. You have thousands of contributors. That's been our model though is find those projects be influential in, 'em be able to drive value in life cycles. But I think it's that open source model that gives us the durability where it can keep changing and tracking to new patterns. So, so >>Yeah, there's been a lot of open source that wasn't able to sustain. So I think you guys obviously have a magic formula. That's true. >>We, there is a, there is some art to picking, I think millions of projects. Uh, but you've gotta watch for that. >>Yeah. Open source is also a place place where failed products go to die. Yeah. <laugh> so you have to be sure you're not, you're not in that corner. >>Yeah. Well >>Look at Kubernetes. I mean the fact that that actually happened is it's astounding to me when you think about it, I mean even red hat was ready to go on a different path. What if that had happened? Who knows? Maybe it never would've maybe to your point about Ava Lovelace, maybe it would've taken a decade to, or run revolution. >>You know, I think in some of these you have to, you have to watch really closely. We obviously have a lot of signals of what will make good long term health. And I, I don't think everyone looks at those the same. We look at 'em from trademark controls and how foundations are structured and um, who the contributors are and the spread of that. And it's not perfect. But I think for us, you have to have those that longevity built in there where you will have a spike of popularity that has the tendency to just, um, fall apart on it. So we've been yeah. Doing that pretty >>Well conditions for a long life is something that's a that's maybe it's an art form. I don't know if it's a data form. It's a culture. Maybe, maybe it's >>Cultural. Yeah. Probably a combination some days I think I'm like this could part art, part science. Yeah. But, uh, but it's certainly a fun space to be in and see that happen. It, um, yeah, it's inspiring to me. Yeah. >>Matt Hicks. Great to have you back on the cube and uh, good job on the keynote really, um, interesting angle that you took. So >>Congratulations. Thanks for having me. >>Yeah. You're very welcome. All right. Keep it right there. Dave ante for Paul Gillon red hat summit, 2022 from Boston. You're watching the cube.