>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson, day four of MWC '23. Show's winding down a little bit, but it's still pretty packed here. Lot of innovation, planes, trains, automobiles, and we're talking 5G all week, private networks, connected breweries. It's super exciting. Really happy to have Warren Jackson here as the Edge Gateway Product Technologist at Dell Technologies, and Scott Waller, the CTO of the 5G Open Innovation Lab. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Really interesting stories that we're going to talk about. Let's start, Scott, with you, what is the Open Innovation Lab? >> So it was hatched three years ago. Ideated about a bunch of guys from Microsoft who ran startup ventures program, started the developers program over at Microsoft, if you're familiar with MSDN. And they came three years ago and said, how does CSPs working with someone like T-Mobile who's in our backyard, I'm from Seattle. How do they monetize the edge? You need a developer ecosystem of applications and use cases. That's always been the thing. The carriers are building the networks, but where's the ecosystem of startups? So we built a startup ecosystem that is sponsored by partners, Dell being one sponsor, Intel, Microsoft, VMware, Aspirant, you name it. The enterprise folks who are also in the connectivity business. And with that, we're not like a Y Combinator or a Techstars where it's investment first and it's all about funding. It's all about getting introductions from a startup who might have a VR or AI type of application or observability for 5G slicing, and bring that in front of the Microsoft's of the world, or the Intel's and the Dell's of the world that they might not have the capabilities to do it because they're still a small little startup with an MVP. So we really incubate. We're the connectors and build a network. We've had 101 startups over the last three years. They've raised over a billion dollars. And it's really valuable to our partners like T-Mobile and Dell, et cetera, where we're bringing in folks like Expedo and GenXComm and Firecell. Start up private companies that are around here they were cohorts from our program in the past. >> That's awesome because I've often, I mean, I've seen Dell get into this business and I'm like, wow, they've done a really good job of finding these guys. I wonder what the pipeline is. >> We're trying to create the pipeline for the entire industry, whether it's 5G on the edge for the CSPs, or it's for private enterprise networks. >> Warren, what's this cool little thing you got here? >> Yeah, so this is very unique in the Dell portfolio. So when people think of Dell, they think of servers laptops, et cetera. But what this does is it's designed to be deployed at the edge in harsh environments and it allows customers to do analytics, data collection at the edge. And what's unique about it is it's got an extended temperature range. There's no fan in this and there's lots of ports on it for data ingestion. So this is a smaller box Edge Gateway 3200. This is the product that we're using in the brewery. And then we have a bigger brother of this, the Edge Gateway 5200. So the value of it, you can scale depending on what your edge compute requirements are at the edge. >> So tell us about the brewery story. And you covered it, I know you were in the Dell booth, but it's basically an analog brewery. They're taking measurements and temperatures and then writing it down and then entering it in and somebody from your company saw it and said, "We can help you with this problem." Explain the story. >> Yeah, so Scott and I did a walkthrough of the brewery back in November timeframe. >> It's in Framingham, Mass. >> Framingham, Mass, correct. And basically, we talked to him, and we said, what keeps you guys up at night? What's a problem that we can solve? Very simple, a kind of a lower budget, didn't have a lot money to spend on it, but what problem can we solve that will realize great benefit for you? So we looked at their fermentation process, which was completely analog. Somebody was walking around with a clipboard looking at analog gauges. And what we did is we digitized that process. So what this did for them rather than being completely reactive, and by the time they realized there was something going wrong with the fermentation process, it's too late. A batch of scrap. This allowed them to be proactive. So anytime, anywhere on the tablet or a phone, they can see if that fermentation process is going out of range and do something about it before the batch gets scrapped. >> Okay. Amazing. And Scott, you got a picture of this workflow here? >> Yeah, actually this is the final product. >> Explain that. >> As Warren mentioned, the data is actually residing in the industrial side of the network So we wanted to keep the IT/OT separation, which is critical on the factory floor. And so all the data is brought in from the sensors via digital connection once it's converted and into the edge gateway. Then there's a snapshot of it using Telit deviceWISE, their dashboarding application, that is decoding all the digital readings, putting them in a nice dashboard. And then when we gave them, we realized another problem was they're using cheap little Chromebooks that they spill beer on once a week and throw them out. That's why they bought the cheap ones 'cause they go through them so fast. So we got a Dell Latitude Rugged notebook. This is a brand new tablet, but they have the dashboarding software. So no matter if they're out there on the floor, but because the data resides there on the factory they have access to be able to change the parameters. This one's in the maturation cycle. This one's in the crashing cycle where they're bringing the temperature back down, stopping the fermentation process, getting it ready to go to the canning side of the house. >> And they're doing all that from this dashboard. >> They're doing all from the dashboard. They also have a giant screen that we put up there that in the floor instead of walking a hundred yards back behind a whole bunch of machinery equipment from a safety perspective, now they just look up on the screen and go, "Oh, that's red. That's out of range." They're actually doing a bunch of cleaning and a bunch of other things right now, too. So this is real time from Boston. >> Dave: Oh okay. >> Scott: This is actually real time from Boston. >> I'm no hop master, but I'm looking at these things flashing at me and I'm thinking something's wrong with my beer. >> We literally just lit this up last week. So we're still tweaking a few things, but they're also learning around. This is a new capability they never had. Oh, we have the ability to alert and monitor at different processes with different batches, different brews, different yeast types. Then now they're also training and learning. And we're going to turn that into eventually a product that other breweries might be able to use. >> So back to the kind of nuts and bolts of the system. The device that you have here has essentially wifi antennas on the back. >> Warren: Correct. >> Pull that up again if you would, please. >> Now I've seen this, just so people are clear, there are also paddle 5G antennas that go on the other side. >> Correct. >> That's sort of the connection from the 5G network that then gets transmogrified, technical term guys, into wifi so the devices that are physically connected to the brew vats, don't know what they're called. >> Fermentation tanks. >> Fermentation tanks, thank you. Those are wifi. That's a wifi signal that's going into this. Is that correct? >> Scott: No. >> No, it's not. >> It's a hard wire. >> Okay, okay. >> But, you're right. This particular gateway. >> It could be wifi if it's hard wire. >> It could be, yes. Could be any technology really. >> This particular gateway is not outfitted with 5G, but something that was very important in this application was to isolate the IT network, which is on wifi and physically connected from the OT network, which is the 5G connection. So we're sending the data directly from the gateway up to the cloud. The two partners that we worked with on this project were ifm, big sensor manufacturer that actually did the wired sensors into an industrial network called IO-Link. So they're physically wired into the gateway and then in the gateway we have a solution from our partner Telit that has deviceWISE software that actually takes the data in, runs the analytics on it, the logic, and then visualizes that data locally on those panels and also up to their cloud, which is what we're looking at. So they can look at it locally, they're in the plant and then up in the cloud on a phone or a tablet, whatever, when they're at home. >> We're talking about a small business here. I don't know how many employees they have, but it's not thousands. And I love that you're talking about an IT network and an OT network. And so they wanted, it is very common when we talk about industrial internet of things use cases, but we're talking about a tiny business here. >> Warren: Correct. >> They wanted to separate those networks because of cost, because of contention. Explain why. >> Yeah, just because, I mean, they're running their ERP system, their payroll, all of their kind of the way they run their business on their IT network and you don't want to have the same traffic out on the factory floor on that network, so it was pretty important. And the other thing is we really, one of the things that we didn't want to do in this project is interrupt their production process at all. So we installed this entire system in two days. They didn't have to shut down, they didn't have to stop. We didn't have to interrupt their process at all. It was like we were invisible there and we spun the thing up and within two days, very simple, easy, but tremendous value for their business. >> Talk about new markets here. I mean, it's like any company that's analog that needs to go digital. It's like 99% of the companies on the planet. What are you guys seeing out there in terms of the types of examples beyond breweries? >> Yeah, I could talk to that. So I spent a lot of time over the last couple years running my own little IoT company and a lot of it being in agriculture. So like in Washington state, 70% of the world's hops is actually grown in Washington state. It's my hometown. But in the Ag producing regions, there's lack of connectivity. So there's interest in private networks because the carriers aren't necessarily deploying it. But because we have the vast amount of hops there's a lot of IPAs, a lot of hoppy IPAs that come out of Seattle. And with that, there's a ton of craft breweries that are about the same size, some are a little larger. Anheuser-Busch and InBev and Heineken they've got great IoT platforms. They've done it. They're mass scale, they have to digitize. But the smaller shops, they don't, when we talk about IT/OT separation, they're not aware of that. They think it's just, I get local broadband and I get wifi and one hotspot inside my facility and it works. So a little bit of it was the education. I have got years in IT/OT security in my background so that education and we come forward with a solution that actually does that for them. And now they're aware of it. So now when they're asking questions of other vendors that are trying to sell them some type of solution, they're inherently aware of what should be done so they're not vulnerable to ransomware attacks, et cetera. So it's known as the Purdue Model. >> Well, what should they do? >> We came in and keep it completely separated and educated them because in the end too we'll build a design guide and a starter kit out of this that other brewers can use. Because I've toured dozens of breweries in Washington, the exact same scenario, analog gauges, analog process, very manual. And in the end, when you ask the brewer, what do they want out of this? It keeps them up at night because if the temperature goes out of range, because the chiller fails, >> They ruined. >> That's $30,000 lost in beer. That's a lot to a small business. However, it's also once they start digitizing the data and to Warren's point, it's read-only. We're not changing any of the process. We augmented on top of their existing systems. We didn't change their process. But now they have the ability to look at the data and see batch to batch consistency. Quality doesn't always mean best, it means consistency from batch to batch. Every beer from exhibit A from yesterday to two months from now of the same style of beer should be the same taste, flavor, boldness, et cetera. This is giving them the insights on it. >> It's like St. Louis Buds, when we were kids. We would buy the St. Louis Buds 'cause they tasted better than the Merrimack Buds. And then Budweiser made them all the same. >> Must be an East coast thing. >> It's an old guy thing, Dave. You weren't born yet. >> I was in high school. Yeah, I was in high school. >> We like the hops. >> We weren't 21. Do me a favor, clarify OT versus IT. It's something we talk about all the time, but not everyone's familiar with that separation. Define OT for me. >> It's really the factory floor. You got IT systems that are ERP systems, billing, you're getting your emails, stuff like that. Where the ransomware usually gets infected in. The OT side is the industrial control network. >> David: What's the 'O' stand for? >> Operation. >> David: Operation? >> Yeah, the operations side. >> 'Cause some people will think objects 'cause we think internet of things. >> The industrial operations, think of it that way. >> But in a sense those are things that are connected. >> And you think of that as they are the safety systems as well. So a machine, if someone doesn't push the stop button, you'd think if there's a lot of traffic on that network, it isn't guaranteed that that stop button actually stops that blade from coming down, someone's going to lose their arm. So it's very tied to safety, reliability, low latency. It is crafted in design that it never touches the internet inherently without having to go through a security gateway which is what we did. >> You mentioned the large companies like InBev, et cetera. You're saying they're already there. Are they not part of your target market? Or are there ways that you can help them? Is this really more of a small to mid-size company? >> For this particular solution, I think so, yeah. Because the cost to entry is low. I mean, you talk about InBev, they have millions of dollars of budgets to spend on OT. So they're completely automated from top to bottom. But these little craft brewers, which they're everywhere in the US. Vermont, Washington state, they're completely manual. A lot of these guys just started in their garage. And they just scaled up and they got a cult kind of following around their beers. One thing that we found here this week, when you talk around edge and 5G and beer, those things get people excited. In our booth we're serving beer, and all these kind of topics, it brings people together. >> And it lets the little guy compete more effectively with the big giants. >> Correct. >> And how do you do more with less as the little guy is kind of the big thing and to Warren's point, we have folks come up and say, "Great, this is for beer, but what about wine? What about the fermentation process of wine?" Same materials in the end. A vessel of some sort, maybe it's stainless steel. The clamps are the same, the sensors are the same. The parameters like temperature are key in any type of fermentation. We had someone talking about olive oil and using that. It's the same sanitary beverage style equipment. We grabbed sensors that were off the shelf and then we integrated them in and used the set of platforms that we could. How do we rapidly enable these guys at the lowest possible cost with stuff that's at the shelf. And there's four different companies in the solution. >> We were having a conversation with T-Mobile a little earlier and she mentioned the idea of this sounding scary. And this is a great example of showing that in fact, at a relatively small scale, this technology makes a lot of sense. So from that perspective, of course you can implement private 5G networks at an industrial scale with tens of millions of dollars of investment. But what about all of the other things below? And that seems to be a perfect example. >> Yeah, correct. And it's one of the things with the gateway and having flexibility the way Dell did a great job of putting really good modems in it. It had a wide spectrum range of what bands they support. So being able to say, at a larger facility, I mean, if Heineken wants to deploy something like this, oh, heck yeah, they probably could do it. And they might have a private 5G network, but let's say T-Mobile offers a private offering on their public via a slice. It's easy to connect that radio to it. You just change the sims. >> Is that how the CSPs fit here? How are they monetized? >> Yeah, correct. So one of our partners is T-Mobile and so we're working with them. We've got other telco partners that are coming on board in our lab. And so we'll do the same thing. We're going to take this back and put it in the lab and offer it up as others because the baseline building blocks or Lego blocks per se can be used in a bunch of different industries. It's really that starter point of giving folks the idea of what's possible. >> So small manufacturing, agriculture you mentioned, any other sort of use cases we should tune into? >> I think it's environmental monitoring, all of that stuff, I see it in IoT deployments all over the world. Just the simple starter kits 'cause a farmer doesn't want to get sold a solution, a platform, where he's got to hire a bunch of coders and partner with the big carriers. He just wants something that works. >> Another use case that we see a lot, a high cost in a lot of these places is the cost of energy. And a lot of companies don't know what they're spending on electricity. So a very simple energy monitoring system like that, it's a really good ROI. I'm going to spend five or $10,000 on a system like this, but I'm going to save $20,000 over a year 'cause I'm able to see, have visibility into that data. That's a lot of what this story's about, just giving visibility into the process. >> It's very cool, and like you said, it gets people excited. Is it a big market? How do you size it? Is it a big TAM? >> Yeah, so one thing that Dell brings to the table in this space is people are buying their laptops, their servers and whatnot from Dell and companies are comfortable in doing business with Dell because of our model direct to customer and whatnot. So our ability to bring a device like this to the OT space and have them have that same user experience they have with laptops and our client products in a ruggedized solution like this and bring a lot of partners to the table makes it easy for our customers to implement this across all kinds of industries. >> So we're talking to billions, tens of billions. Do we know how big this market is? What's the TAM? I mean, come on, you work for Dell. You have to do a TAM analysis. >> Yes, no, yeah. I mean, it really is in the billions. The market is huge for this one. I think we just tapped into it. We're kind of focused in on the brewery piece of it and the liquor piece of it, but the possibilities are endless. >> Yeah, that's tip of the spear. Guys, great story. >> It's scalable. I think the biggest thing, just my final feedback is working and partnering with Dell is we got something as small as this edge gateway that I can run a Packet Core on and run a 5G standalone node and then have one of the small little 5G radios out there. And I've got these deployed in a farm. Give the farmer an idea of what's possible, give him a unit on his tractor, and now he can do something that, we're providing connectivity he had never had before. But as we scale up, we've got the big brother to this. When we scale up from that, we got the telco size units that we can put. So it's very scalable. It's just a great suite of offerings. >> Yeah, outstanding. Guys, thanks for sharing the story. Great to have you on theCUBE. >> Good to be with you today. >> Stop by for beer later. >> You know it. All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, we're here live at the Fira in Barcelona MWC '23 day four. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE! Covering RedHat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Alright welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat 2018. I'm John Furrier, the co host of theCUBE with John Troyer, co-founder of TechReckoning Advisory Firm. Next guest is Chris Wright, Vice President and CTO Chief of Technology of his Red Hat. Great to see you again, thanks for joining us today. >> Yeah, great to be here. >> Day one of three days of CUBE coverage, you got, yesterday had sessions over there in Moscone South, yet in classic Red Hat fashion, good vibes, things are rocking. Red Hat's got a spring to their step, making some good calls technically. >> Chris: That's right. >> Kubernetes' one notable, Core OS Acquisition, really interesting range, this gives, I mean I think people are now connecting the dots from the tech side, but also now on the business side, saying "Okay we can see now some, a wider market opportunity for Red Hat". Not just doing it's business with Linux, software, you're talking about a changing modern software architecture, for application developers. I mean, this is a beautiful thing, I mean. >> Chris: It's not just apps but it's the operator, you know, operation side as well, so we've been at it for a long time. We've been doing something that's really similar for quite some time, which is building a platform for applications, independent from the underlying infrastructure, in the Linux days I was X86 hardware, you know, you get this HeteroGenius hardware underneath, and you get a consistent standardized application run time environment on top of Linux. Kubernetes is helping us do that at a distributive level. And it's taken some time for the industry to kind of understand what's going on, and we've been talking about hybrid cloud for years and, you really see it real and happening and it's in action and for us that distributed layer round Kubernetes which just lights up how do you manage distributed applications across complex infrastructure, makes it really real. >> Yeah it's also timing's everything too right? I mean, good timing, that helps, the evolution of the business, you always have these moments and these big waves where you can kind of see clunking going on, people banging against each other and you know, the glue layers developing, and then all of a sudden snaps into place, and then it just scales, right? So you're starting to see that, we've seen this in other ways, TCPIP, Linux itself, and you guys are certainly making that comparison, being Red Hat, but what happens next is usually an amazing growth phase. Again, small little, and move the ball down the field, and then boom, it opens up. As a CTO, you have to look at that 20 mile stair now, what's next? What's that wave coming that you're looking at in the team that you have on Red Hat's side and across your partners? What's the wave next? >> Well there's a lot of activity going on that's beyond what we're building today. And so much of it, first of all, is happening in Open Source. So that itself is awesome. Like we're totally tuned into these environments, it's core to who we are, it's our DNA to be involved in these Open Source communities, and you look across all of the different projects and things like machine learning and blockchain, which are really kind of native Open Source developments, become really relevant in ways that we can change how we build functionality and build business, and build business value in the future. So, those are the things that we look at, what's emerging out of the Open Source communities, what's going to help continue to accelerate developers' ability to quickly build applications? Operations team's ability to really give that broad scale, policy level view of what's going on inside your infrastructure to support those applications, and all the data that we're gathering and needing to sift through and build value from inside the applications, that's very much where we're going. >> Well I think we had a really good example of machine learning used in an everyday enterprise application this morning, they kicked off the keynote, talking about optimizing the schedule and what sessions were in what rooms, you know, using an AI tool right? >> Chris: That's right. >> And so, that's reality as you look at, is that going to be the new reality as you're looking into the future of building in these kind of machine learning opportunities into everyday business applications that, you know, in the yesteryear would've been just some, I don't know, visual basic, or whatever, depending on how far back you look, right? You know, is that really going to be a reality in the enterprise? It seems so. >> It is, absolutely. And so what we're trying to do is build the right platforms, and build the right tools, and then interfaces to those platforms and tools to make it easier and easier for developers to build, you know, what we've been calling "Intelligent Apps", or applications that take advantage of the data, and the insights associated with that data, right in the application. So, the scheduling optimization that you saw this morning in the keynote is a great example of that. Starting with basic rules engine, and augmenting that with machine learning intelligence is one example, and we'll see more and more of that as the sophisticated tools that are coming out of Open Source communities building machine learning platforms, start to specialize and make it easier and easier to do specific machine learning tasks within an application. So you don't have to be a data scientist and an app developer all in one, you know, that's, there's different roles and different responsibilities, and how do we build, develop, life cycle managed models is one question, and how do we take advantage of those models and applications is another question, and we're really looking at that from a Red Hat perspective. >> John F: And the enterprises are always challenged, they always (mumbles), Cloud Native speaks to both now, right? So you got hybrid cloud and now multi-cloud on the horizon, set perfectly up with Open Shift's kind of position in that, kind of the linchpin, but you got, they're still two different worlds. You got the cloud-native born in the cloud, and that's pretty much a restart-up these days, and then you've got legacy apps with container, so the question is, that people are asking is, okay, I get the cloud-native, I see the benefits, I know what the investment is, let's do it upfront, benefits are horizontally scalable, asynchronous, et cetera et cetera, but I got legacy. I want to do micro-servicing, I want to do server-less, do I re-engineer that or just containers, what's the technical view and recommendation from Red Hat when you say, when the CIO says or enterprise says, "Hey I want to go cloud native for over here and new staff, but I got all this old staff, what do I do?". Do I invest more region, or just containerize it, what's the play? >> I think you got to ask kind of always why? Why you're doing something. So, we hear a lot, "Can I containerize it?", often the answer is yes. A different question might be, "What's the value?", and so, a containerized application, whether it's an older application that's stateful or whether it's a newer cloud-native application (mumbles), horizontally scalable, and all the great things, there's value potentially in just the automation around the API's that allow you to lifecycle manage the application. So if the application itself is still continuing to change, we have some great examples with some of our customers, like Keybank, doing what we call the "Fast moving monolith". So it's still a traditional application, but it's containerized and then you build a CICD model around it, and you have automation on how you deliver and deploy production. There's value there, there's also value in your existing system, and maybe building some different services around the legacy system to give you access, API access, to data in that system. So different ways to approach that problem, I don't think there's a one size fits all. >> So Chris, some of this is also a cultural and a process shift. I was impressed this morning, we've already talked with two Red Hat customers, Macquarie and Amadeus, and you know Macquarie was talking about, "Oh yeah we moved 40 applications in a year, you know, onto Open Shift", and it turns out they were already started to be containerized and dockerized and, oh yeah yeah you know, that is standard operating procedure, for that set of companies. There's a long tail of folks who are still dealing with the rest of the stuff we've had to deal, the stack we've had to deal with for years. How is Red Hat, how are you looking at this kind of cultural shift? It's nice that it's real, right? It's not like we're talking about microservices, or some sort of future, you know, Jettison sort of thing, that's going to save us all, it's here today and they're doing it. You know, how are you helping companies get there? >> So we have a practice that we put in place that we call the "Open Innovation Lab". And it's very much an immersive practice to help our customers first get experience building one of these cloud native applications. So we start with a business problem, what are you trying to solve? We take that through a workshop, which is a multi-week workshop, really to build on top of a platform like Open Shift, real code that's really useful for that business, and those engineers that go through that process can then go back to their company and be kind of the change agent for how do we build the internal cultural shift and the appreciation for Agile development methodologies across our organization, starting with some of this practical, tangible and realist. That's one great example of how we can help, and I think part of it is just helping customers understand it isn't just technology, I'm a technologist so there's part of me that feels pain to say that but the practical reality is there's whole organizational shifts, there's mindset and cultural changes that need to happen inside the organization to take advantage of the technology that we put in place to build that optimize. >> John F: And roles are changing too, I'll see the system admin kind of administrative things getting automated way through more operating role. I heard some things last week at CubeCon in Copenhagen, Denmark, and I want to share some quotes and I want to get your reaction. >> Alright. >> This is the hallway, I won't attribute the names but, these were quotes, I need, quote, "I need to get away from VP Engine firewalls. I need user and application layer security with unfishable access, otherwise I'm never safe". Second quote, "Don't confuse lift and shift with running cloud-native global platform. Lot of actors in this system already running seamlessly. Versus say a VM Ware running environment wherein V Center running in a data center is an example of a lift and shift". So the comments are one for (mumbles) cloud, you need to have some sort of security model, and then two, you know we did digital transformation before with VM's, that was a different world, but the new world's not a lift and shift, it's re-architect of a cloud-native global platform. Your reaction to those two things, and what that means to customers as they think about what they're going to look like, as they build that bridge to the future. >> Security peace is critical, so every CIO that we're talking to, it's top of mind, nobody wants to be on the front page of The Wall Street Journal for the wrong reasons. And so understanding, as you build a micro-services software architected application, the components themselves are exposed to services, those services are API's that become potentially part of the attack surface. Thinking of it in terms of VPN's and firewalls, is the kind of traditional way that we manage security at the edge. Hardened at the edge, soft in the middle isn't an acceptable way to build a security policy around applications that are internally exposing parts of their API's to other parts of the application. So, looking at it for me, application use case perspective, which portions of the application need to be able to talk to one another, and it's part of why somebody like Histio are so exciting, because it builds right in to the platform, the notion of mutual authentication between services. So that you know you're talking to a service that you're allowed to talk to. Encryption associated with that, so that you get another level of security for data and motion, and all of that is not looking at what is the VPN or what is the VLAN tag, or what is the encapsulation ID, and thinking layer two, layer three security, it's really application layer, and thinking in terms of that policy, which pieces of the application have to talk to each other, and nobody else can talk to that service unless it's, you know, understood that that's an important part for how the application works. So I think, really agree, and you could even say DevSecOps to me is something that I've come around to. Initially I thought it was a bogus term and I see the value in considering security at every step of build, test and deliver an application. Lift and shift, totally different topic. What does it mean to lift and shift? And I think there's still, some people want to say there's no value in lift and shift, and I don't fully agree, I think there's still value in moving, and modernizing the platform without changing the application, but ultimately the real value does come in re-architecting, and so there's that balance. What can you optimize by moving? And where does that free up resources to invest in that real next generation application re-architecting? >> So Chris, you've talked about machine learning, right? Huge amounts of data, you've just talked about security, we've talked about multi-cloud, to me that says we might have an issue in the future with the data layer. How are people thinking about the data layer, where it lives, on prem, in the cloud, think about GDPR compliance, you know, all that sort of good stuff. You know, how are you and Red Hat, how are you asking people to think about that? >> So, data management is a big question. We build storage tooling, we understand how to put the bytes on disc, and persist, and maintain the storage, it's a different question what are the data services, and what is the data governance, or policy around placement, and I think it's a really interesting part of the ecosystem today. We've been working with some research partners in the Massachusetts Open Cloud and Boston University on a project called "Cloud Dataverse", and it has a whole policy question around data. 'Cause there, scientists want to share data sets, but you have to control and understand who you're sharing your data sets with. So, it's definitely a space that we are interested in, understand, that there's a lot of work to be done there, and GDPR just kind of shines a light right on it and says policy and governance around where data is placed is actually fundamental and important, and I think it's an important part, because you've seen some of the data issues recently in the news, and you know, we got to get a handle on where data goes, and ultimately, I'd love to see a place where I'm in control of how my data is shared with the rest of the world. >> John F: Yeah, certainly the trend. So a final question for you, Open Source absolutely greatness going on, more and more good things are happening in projects, and bigger than ever before, I mean machine learning's a great example, seeing not just code snippets, code bases being you know, TensorFlow jumps out at me (mumbles), what are you doing here this year that's new and different from an Open Source standpoint, but also from a Red Hat standpoint that's notable that people should pay attention to? >> Well, one of the things that we're focused on is that platform layer, how do we enable a machine learning workload to run well on our platform? So it starts actually at the very bottom of the stack, hardware enablement. You got to get GPUs functional, you got to get them accessible to virtual machine based applications, and container based applications, so that's kind of table stakes. Accelerate a machine learning workload to make it usable, and valuable, to an enterprise by reducing the training and interference times for a machine learning model. Some of the next questions are how do we embed that technology in our own products? So you saw Access Insights this morning, talking about how we take machine learning, look at all of the data that we're gathering from the systems that our customers are deploying, and then derive insights from those and then feed those back to our customers so they can optimize the infrastructure that they're building and running and maintaining, and then, you know, the next step is that intelligent application. How do we get that machine learning capability into the hands of the developer, and pair the data scientist with the developers so you build these intelligent applications, taking advantage of all the data that you're gathering as an enterprise, and turning that into value as part of your application development cycle. So those are the areas that we're focused on for machine learning, and you know, some of that is partnering, you know, talking through how do we connect some of these services from Open Shift to the cloud service providers that are building some of these great machine learning tools, so. >> Any new updates on (mumbles) the success of Red Hat just in the past two years? You see the growth, that correlates, that was your (mumbles) Open Shift, and a good calls there, positioned perfectly, analysts, financial analysts are really giving you guys a lot of props on Wall Street, about the potential revenue growth opportunities on the business side, what's it like now at Red Hat? I mean, do you look back and say, "Hey, it was only like three years ago we did this", and I mean, the vibes are good, I mean share some inside commentary on what's happening inside Red Hat. >> It's really exciting. I mean, we've been working on these things for a long time. And, the simplest example I have is the combination of tools like the JBoss Middleware Suite and Linux, well they could run well together and we have a lot of customers that combine those, but when you take it to the next step, and you build containerized services and you distribute those broadly, you got a container platform, you got middleware components, you know, even providing functionality as services, you see how it all comes together and that's just so exciting internally. And at the same time we're growing. And a big part of-- >> John F: Customers are using it. >> Customers are using it, so putting things into production is critical. It's not just exciting technology but it's in production. The other piece is we're growing, and as we grow, we have to maintain the core of who we are. There's some humility that's involved, there's some really core Open Source principles that are involved, and making sure that as we continue to grow, we don't lose sight of who we are, really important thing for our internal culture, so. >> John F: Great community driven, and great job. Chris, thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. Chris Wright, CTO of Red Hat, sharing his insights here on theCUBE. Of course, bringing you all a live action as always here in San Francisco in Moscone West, for Red Hat Summit 2018, we'll be right back. (electronic music) (intense music)