>> Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 18, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. We are in San Francisco at Moscone, US. It's a spectacular day in San Francisco. It's a day to play hooky frankly, or play hooky and watch theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer, and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE Abby Fuller, Developer Relations from AWS. Abby, great to have you here. >> Happy to be here. >> So you were a speaker at DockerCon 2018. Tell us a little bit about that and your role in Developer Relations. >> So I work in Developer Relations for AWS. So I used to be a devops engineer, and now I go around talking to customers and developers and other software engineers, and teaching them how to use things with AWS, or this morning it was teaching everyone how to build effective Docker images. >> So I read in your bio on the DockerCon website of the speakers that you're a container fan. We know you're a music fan, but you're also a container fan. What is it about that technology that you just go, "Oh, this is awesome, "and I can't wait to teach people "about the benefits of this"? >> So I switched over to container as a customer before I started working at AWS, and the biggest reasons for me, the first one was portability, so that I could do everything that I needed to run my application all in one place. So I think a big problem for a lot of developers is the whole what works on my machine? So being able to package everything together so that it worked on my machine, but also on a staging environment, a QA environment, and on your machine, that was the biggest thing for me. And that it removed some of the spaghetti code that came before, and it just made everything, it was all packaged nicely, I could deploy it a little bit more easily, a little bit faster, and I eliminated a lot of the why doesn't it work now when it worked before? >> Abby, one of the paradoxes of where we are in 2018 is AWS has been around for a decade, but yet here at the show, about half the folks raised their hand to the question, this is your first DockerCon? Are you just getting started with Docker and containers? So as an evangelist, Evangelist Developer Relations, you're the front line of talking with people at the grassroots. So can you talk a little bit about some of the different personas you encounter? Are you meeting people who are just getting started with their container journey? Or are you spending a lot of time kind of finessing the details about that API, APIs and changes and things like that at AWS? >> I think my favorite part about talking to AWS customers is that you get the whole range, right? So you get people that are just starting and they wanna know how do I build a container? How do I run it? How do I start from zero? And then you get the people that have been doing it for maybe a year or maybe two years, and they're looking for like advanced black belt tips, and then you get the other group which is not everyone is building a greenfield application, so then you get a really interesting subset where they're trying to move over from the whole monolith to micro services story. So they're trying to containerize and kind of adopt agile containerize approaches as they're moving over, and I think the best part is being able to talk to the whole range 'cause then it's never boring. >> What are some of the big barriers that you see for organizations that are maybe on the very very beginning of the journey or maybe before it, when you're talking with customers or developers, what are some of the things that you're hearing them say, "Ah, but what about these? "How can you help me eliminate these challenges?" >> Two big ones for me. The first one is the organizational changes that go around the infrastructure change. So it doesn't always work to just containerize what you already had, and then call it a day. So a lot of people are decomposing, they're going with micro services at the same time as they're going with containers. And I think wrapping your head around that kind of decomposition is the first kind of big challenge. And I think that we really just had to educate better. So show people, so here are some ways that you can break your service up, here are some things to think about when you're figuring out service boundaries. And I think the other one is that they often want a little bit of help when they're getting started. So either educational resources or how can AWS manage part of their infrastructure? Will they focus on the container part? So it's really interesting and it runs a whole gamut. >> Abby, you in Developer Relations, I love the trend, the community orient and trend, they're great, of peers helping peers, you're out there, you're wearing a Bruce Springsteen shirt right now, you made a Wu Tang joke in your talk today which is something that one did not do a few years back, right? You had to kinda dress up, and you were usually a man, and you wore a tie. >> Got my blazer on today. >> You look very sharp. Don't get me wrong. But as you talk to people, one, what's your day like or week like? How many miles do you have this year? That's private. But also as people come up to you, what do they ask you? Are you a role model for folks? Do people come up and say, "How can I do this too?" >> Yeah, so miles for this year. I think like 175,000. >> Already just in June? >> Already this year. So, this is a lot of what I do. I talk to all kinds of customers. I do bigger events like this, I do meet-ups, I do user groups, I go to AWS summits, and dev days and builders days, and things like that. I meet with customers. So day-to-day changes everyday. I'm obviously big on Twitter, spend a lot of time tweeting on planes. It really depends. This is a lot of what I do and I think people, I don't think you can ever really call yourself a role model, right? I love showing people that there's pass into tech that didn't start off with a computer science degree, that there's tons of ways to participate and be part of the tech community, 'cause it's a great community. >> You're not just a talker, you're a coder too. >> Yeah, yeah, so every job before this one with the exception of my very first job which was in sales. I was a dev ops engineer right up until I took the job at AWS, and I like to think that I never left, I'm just no longer on call. But I build my own demos, I write my own blog posts, I do all my own slides and workshops, so still super active, just not on call, so it's the best of all the worlds. >> So you went to Tufts, you didn't major in computer science. >> No. >> You are, I would say, a role model. You might not consider yourself one-- >> Well you can say it, yeah. >> I can say it exactly. It's PC if I say it. But, one of the things that's exciting to have females on the show, and I geek out on this is, we don't have a lot of females in tech. I mean, I think the last stat that I saw recently was less than 25% of technical roles are held by women. What was your career path if we can kinda pivot on that for a second, 'cause I think that's quite interesting. And what are some of the things that you've said, "You know what, I don't care. "I enjoy this, I wanna do this,"? 'Cause in all circumstances you are a role model, but I'd love to understand some of the things you encountered, and maybe some of your advice to those that'll be following in your footsteps. >> Yeah, so I went to school for politics. Programming was a little bit of a side hobby before that, mostly of the how can I do this thing, do this thing that it's not supposed to be doing? So I did that, I went to school. I took a computer science class my very last semester in school. I did not know that it was a thing before then, so I'm I guess a little slow in the comp sci uptake. And I was like, oh wow cool, this is an awesome, this could be an awesome career, but I don't know how to get into it. So I was like okay, I'm gonna go to a startup, and I'm gonna do whatever. So I take a sales job. I did that for maybe nine or 10 months. And I started taking on side projects. So how to write email templates in HTML that I could use that directly showed an impact to my sales job. Then the startup, as startups do, got acquired. And as part of the acquisition I moved my little CRM engineering job to the product team. And then, I'm gonna be honest, I bothered the CTO a lot. And I learned side projects. I was like I've learned Python now, what can you have for me? So I basically bothered him a lot until he helped me do some projects, and totally old enough now to admit that he was very kind to take a chance on me. And then I worked hard. I did a lot of online classes. I read a lot of books. I read a lot of blogs. I'm a big proponent in learning by doing. So I still learn things the same way. I read about it, I decide that I wanna use it, I try it out, and then at the point where I get where I don't quite know what's happening, I go back to documentation. And that got me through a couple of devops jobs until I got to evangelism. And I think the biggest advice I have for people is it's okay to not know what you want right away which is how I have a politics degree. But you can work at it. And don't be afraid to have mentors and communities and peers that can help you 'cause it's the best way to participate, and it's actually whether you have a comp sci job or not, it's still the best way to participate, and that you can have, there are so many nontraditional paths to tech, and I think everyone is equally valuable, because I think I write better coming from a liberal arts degree than I would have otherwise. So I think every skill that you bring in is valuable. So once you figure out what you want, don't be afraid to ask for it. >> The thing I'm hearing here is persistence. And it just reminded me, a quick pivot, of I hosted theCUBE at Women Transforming Technology just a couple weeks ago at VMWare, and they just made a massive investment, 15 million into a lab, a research lab at Stanford, to look at the barriers that women in tech are facing. And one of our guests, Pratima Rao Gluckman, just wrote a book called Nevertheless, She Persisted. It reminded me of you because that's one of the things that I'm hearing from you is that persistence that I think is a really unique thing there. Sorry, I just had to take a little side. >> I saw you looked that up. And actually I saw the title and I have not read it yet, but I have a flight back to New York after this so I'll have to find that. >> You've got time. >> Yeah. >> Over and over again as I talk with folks about IT and tech careers, right? It's that thinking expansively about your job, trying things, being a continuous learner, that is the thing that actually works. Maybe pivoting back to the tech for a sec then, obviously here container central, DockerCon 2018, Kubernetes actually was a big news this morning at the keynote, a big announcement, how Docker EE is gonna connect to Amazon EKS among others, kind of being able to manage the Kubernetes clusters up there in the cloud. And EKS actually just had, it just had its general availability I believe, right? In the last week or so? >> Yeah, so, excited to see EKS in the keynote this morning. We're always happy to deepen our partnerships. Yeah, and we've been in preview since re:Invent, and then we announced the general though of EKS, so Amazon Elastic Container Service for Kubernetes, long acronym. So EKS, we announced the GA last Tuesday. >> The interesting thing about AWS is somebody just compared it, I saw a tweet today to an industrial supply store and it's a huge warehouse full of tools that you can use, and that includes containers. But for containers, the three pieces that are the largest are EKS, ECS, and Fargate. Can you kinda tease those out for us really briefly? >> Yeah so envision if you would a flow chart. So if you wanna run a managed container on AWS, first you pick your orchestration tool, so EKS or ECS. ECS is the one that we've been working on for quite a few years now, so Elastic Container Service. Once you've chosen your orchestration tool, for ECS you have another set of choices which is either to run your containers in the EC2 mode which is manager, cluster, infrastructure as well, so the underlying EC2 hosts. And Fargate mode, where you only manage everything at the container level and task definition level, so no cluster management. >> And that's all taken care of for you. >> That's all taken care of for you. So Fargate I think is not actually a service in the traditional way that we would say that ECS is a service, and more of like an underlying technology, so that's what enables you to manage everything at just the container level and not at the cluster level. But I think the best way of describing it is actually is, there's a really nice quote floating around that said, "When I ask someone for a sandwich, "they don't wanna know the whole sandwich logistics chain, "so how do I get turkey, how do I get cheese, "how do I get mayo on the bread, "they just want the sandwich." So Fargate for, I think, a lot of people, is the sandwich. So I just want the sandwich, just give me your container, don't worry about the rest. >> So we've already established Abby has a lot of miles already in half a year, so I'm thinking two things. One, we should travel with her 'cause we're probably gonna get free upgrades. And two, you speak with a lot of customers. So tell us about that customer feedback loop. >> Something that I really love about working at Amazon is that so much of our roadmap is driven by customer feedback. So actually something that was really cool is that this morning, so ECS announced a daemon-scheduler, so run tasks one per host on every host in the cluster, so for things like metrics, containers, and log containers. And something that is so cool for me is that I asked for that as a customer, and I just watched us announced it this morning. It's incredible to see every single time that the feedback loop is closed, that people ask for it and then we build it. The same thing with EKS, right? We want you to have a great experience running your infrastructure on AWS, full stop. >> Can you give us an example of a customer that's really been impactful in terms of that feedback loop? One that really sticks out to you as a great hallmark of what you guys are enabling. >> I think that all of our customers are impactful in the feedback loop, right? Anyone from a really small startup to a really large enterprise. I think one that was really exciting to me was a very small Israeli startup. They went all in on managing no EC2 instances very quickly. They're called The Tree. So they were my customer speaker at the Tel Aviv summit, and they managed zero EC2 instances. So they have Fargate, they have Lambda, they managed no infrastructure themselves. And I just think it's so cool to watch people want things, and then adopt them so quickly. And the response on Twitter after the daemon-scheduler this morning is like, my favorite tweet was, "This is customer feedback done right." And I love seeing how happy people are when they ask for something or are saying, "Now that you've added that, "I can delete three Lambda functions "because you made it easy." And I love seeing feedback like that. So I think everyone is impactful, but that one stuck out to me as someone that adopted something incredibly quickly and have been so, they're just so happy to have a need solved for them. >> Well that's the best validation that you can get is through the voice of the customer. So to hear that must feel good that not only are we listening, but we're doing things right in a way that our customers are feeling how valuable they are to us. >> Happy customers are the best customers. >> They definitely are. >> Yeah. >> We learn a lot from the ones that aren't happy, and there's a lot of learnings there, but hearing that validation is icing on the cake. >> Always. >> Last question for you. With some of the announcements that came out today, and as this conference and its figure has grown tremendously, when I was walking out of the general session this morning, I took a photo because I don't think I've seen a general session room that big in a long time, and that was just at the Sapphire last week which has 20,000 attendees. I was impressed with how captivated the audience was. So last question, what excites you about some of the things that Docker announced today? >> So I think that's interesting. Something that's excited me in general is watching the community itself flourished. So there's many, there's Kubernetes CGroups, and there's user groups, the discussion online is always incredibly rich and vibrant, and there are so many people that are just so excited for anything. It's all companies building what they're looking for. And I love seeing things like the Docker Enterprise Edition announcement this morning where the demo is EKS, but I just love seeing customers get the choice to do whatever they want. They have all the options out there, and that you can see how much more rich and vibrant everything is. From even a couple years ago, there's more people every year, there's more sessions every year, the sessions are bigger every year. And I just love that. And I love seeing when people get so excited, and then seeing people that came to your talk two years ago, come back and give their own talk I think is amazing. >> Oh, talk about feedback. That must have felt really good. >> I think it's not a reflection on me, it's a reflection on the community. And it's a very supportive community, and it's a very excited and curious audience. So if you see their reception to other people that talk a lot being like, oh we're really happy to have you, then the next year you're like, well I have a story and I wanna tell it, so I'm gonna sit in my own session, and I think that's the best. >> Well Abby, it's been such a pleasure to have you on theCUBE, thank you. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for stopping by. And your energy is infectious so you'll have to come back. >> Anytime. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer, live from San Francisco at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, we'll be right back after a short break. (upbeat music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE! Covering women transforming technology. >> Hi, welcome to theCube. Lisa Martin on the ground at the 3rd Annual Women Transforming Technology event at VMware in Palo Alto, and I'm joined by an author and a senior VMware engineer, Pratima Rao Gluckman. Welcome to the Cube, Pratima. >> Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here >> It's great to have you here. So you have been an engineer here for about ten years. You knew from when you were a kid, love this, engineer, you knew you wanted to be that. You fell in love with your first programming class. It was like a Jerry McGuire, you complete me kind of moment I'm imagining. Tell me a little bit about your career in engineering and specifically as a female. >> Okay, so I was raised, born and raised, in India, and I grew up in an environment where I was gender blind. You know, my oldest sister played cricket for the country. >> Lisa: Wow! >> And it was a man's game! You know and a lot of people kind of talked about that, but it wasn't like she couldn't do it, right? So, I always grew up with this notion that I could do anything, and I could be whoever I wanted to be. And then I came to the United States, and that whole narrative stayed with me, the meritocracy narrative. Like you work hard, you know, society, the world will take care of you, and good things will happen, but it wasn't until 2016 was when I had this aha moment, and that's when I suddenly felt, suddenly I was aware of my gender, and I was like, okay I'm a female in tech, and there's lots of challenges for women in tech. And I didn't quite realize that. It was just that aha moment, and VMware has been a great company. I've been with VMware for nine years, I started as an engineer, and I moved into engineering management. We had Diane Greene who founded the company, the culture was always meritocratic, but I think something in 2016 kind of made me just thinking about my career and thinking about the careers of the women around me, I felt like we were stuck. But at the same time be focused on the women that were successful, for instance Yanbing Li, who's our senior VP and general manager of our storage business. And we were talking about her, and I said, this is what I said, I said, "There are some women who are successful despite everything "that we're dealing with, and I just want "to know their stories, and I'm going to write this book." The moment I said that it just felt right. I felt like this was something I wanted to do, and the stories in this book are inspiring stories of these women, just listening to Laila Ali this morning, her inspirational story, and this book has around 19 stories of these executive women, and they're just not role models, I mean every story offers strategies of how to thrive in the tech world. >> So interesting that first of all I love the title, Pratima, of this book, "Nevertheless She Persisted." So simple, so articulate, and so inspiring. So interesting, though, that you were working as an engineer for quite a few years before you realized, kind of looked around, like, whoa, this is a challenge that I'm actually living in. Yanbing is a CUBE alumni, I love her Twitter handle. So you said all right, I want to talk to some women who have been persistent and successful in their tech careers, as kind of the genesis of the book. Talk to us about, maybe, of those 19 interviews that range from, what, c-levels to VPs to directors. What are some of the stories that you found, what kind of blew your mind of, wow, I didn't know that you came from that kind of background? >> So when I started off I was very ambitious. I said I'd go interview CEO women, and I did a lot of research, and I found some very disturbing facts. You know, Fortune Magazine lists Fortune 500 companies, and they rank them based on their prior year's fiscal revenues, and from that data there were 24 women CEOs in 2014. That number dropped to 21 in 2015, and it dropped again in 2016, but it went up slightly in 2017 to 32 women, which is promising, but back in 2018 we're down to 24. So we have very very few women CEOs, and when I started off I said I'll talk to the CEO women, and I couldn't find any CEO women, my network, my friends' network, And so I dropped one level and I said let me go talk to SVPs and when I looked at VMware and VMware's network, Yanbing was one of them, so she's in the book, and then I reached out to contacts outside of my network. So I have some women from LinkedIn, I have Google, I have Facebook, I have some women from startups. So I have around four CEOs in the book, I've got, and what's great about this book is it's got a diverse set of women. Right? They have different titles; I've got directors, senior directors, VPs, Senior VPs, GMs, and CEOs. And some of them have PhDs, some of them have a Master's Degree, and some actually don't have formal training in computer science. I thought this would be interesting because a woman with any background can relate to it. Right? And so that was helpful. And so that's kind of how I went off and I started to write this book. And when I interviewed these women, there was a common theme that just kept emerging, and that was persistence. And they persisted against gender bias, stereotype threat, just the negative messages from media and society. I mean like Laila Ali was talking about just even the messages she got from her dad. >> Right. >> Right? Someone who was so close to her who basically said "Women can't box." And that didn't stop her; I mean she persisted. When I was listening to her, she didn't use the word, but, you know, she said she was believing in herself and all that, but she persisted through all those negative messages, right? And she said no one can tell her what to do. (laughs) >> Yeah her confidence is very loud and clear, and I think that you do find women, and I imagine some of them are some of the interviewees in your book, who have that natural confidence, and as you were saying when Muhammad Ali was trying to talk her out of it, and trying to, as she said, "He tried to get me think it was my idea," but she just knew, well no, this is what I want to do. And she had that confidence. Did you find that a lot of the women leaders in this book had that natural confidence? Like you grew up in an environment where you just believed "I can do this, my sister's playing cricket." Did you find that was a common thread, or did you find some great examples of women who wanted to do something, but just thought "Can I do this?" And "How do I do that?" What was the kind of confidence level that you saw? >> I was surprised because I had a question on imposter syndrome, and I asked these women, Telle Whiteney, who's the CEO, she was the CEO, ex-CEO >> Lisa: Grace Hopper >> Yes. The founder of Grace Hopper. I asked her about imposter syndrome and this is what she told me, she said "I feel like I'm not good enough" and that actually gave me goosebumps. I remember I was sitting in front of greatness and this is what she was telling me. And then I asked her "How do you overcome it?" and she said "I just show up the next day." And that actually helped me with this book because I am not an author. >> That's persistence. >> I mean I am an author now but 2 years ago when I started to write this, writing is not my forte. I'm a technologist, I build teams, I manage teams, I ship products, I ship technical products, but everyday I woke up and I said, "I'm feeling like an imposter." It was just her voice right? Yanbing also feels the same way, I mean she does feel times where she feels like, "I'm lacking confidence here." Majority of the people actually, pretty much all the women, this one woman, Patty Hatter, didn't feel like she had imposter syndrome but the rest of them face it everyday. Talia Malachi who's a principal engineer at VMWare, it's very hard to be a PE, she said that she fights it every day, and that was surprising to me, right? Because I was sitting in front of all these women, they were confident, they've achieved so much, but they struggle with that every day. But all they do is they persist, they show up the next day. They take those little steps and they have these goals and they're very intentional and purposeful, I mean just like what Layla said, right? She said, "Everything that I've done in the last 20 years "has been intentional and purposeful." And that's what these women did. And I learned so much from them because 20 years ago I was a drifter (laughs) you know I just kind drifted and I didn't realize that I could set a goal and I could reach it and I could do all these amazing things, and I didn't think any of this was possible for me. But I'm hoping that some girl somewhere can read this book and say "You know what this is possible", right? This is possible and you know role models, I think we need lots of these role models. >> We do I think, you know imposter syndrome I've suffered for it for so long before I even knew what it was and I'll be honest with you even finding out that it was a legitimate issue was (exhales) okay I'm not the only one. So I think it's important that you, that these women and youth are your voice, in your book, identified it. This is something I face everyday even though you may look at me on the outside and think, "She's so successful, she's got everything." And we're human. And Laila Ali talked about of having to revisit that inner lawyer, that sometimes she goes silent, sometimes the pilot light goes out and needs to be reignited or turned back up. I think that is just giving people permission, especially women, and I've felt that in the keynote, giving us permission to go, "Ah, you're not going to feel that everyday, "you're not going to feel it everyday." Get up the next day to your point, keep persisting and pursuing your purpose is in and of itself so incredibly empowering. >> Right but also imposter syndrome is good for you and I talk about that a little bit in the book. And you know why it's good for you? It's you getting out of your comfort zone, you're trying something different, and it's natural to feel that way, but once you get over it, you've mastered that, and Laila talked about it too today she said, "You get uncomfortable to the point "where you get comfortable." >> Lisa: Yes. >> So every time that you find that you have this imposter syndrome, just remember that greatness is right around the corner. >> Yep. I always say "Get uncomfortably uncomfortable". >> Pratima: Yes. >> And I loved how she said that today. So one of the big news of the day is VMWare with Stanford announcing that they are investing $15,000,000 in a new Women's Leadership Innovation Lab at Stanford. Phenomenal. >> Pratima: Yes. >> And they're really going to start studying diversity and there's so many different gaps that we face, wage gap, age gap, gender gap, you know mothers vs motherless gap, and one of the things that was really interesting that, I've heard this before, that the press release actually cited a McKinsey report that says, "Companies with diversity "on their executive staff are 21% more profitable." >> Yes. >> And that just seems like a, no duh, Kind of thing to me for organizations like VMWare and your other partners in this consortium of Wt Squared to get on board to say, "Well of course." Thought diversity is so important and it actually is demonstrated to impact a companies' profitability. >> Right, yeah. And that's true, I just hope that more people listen to it and internalize it, and organizations internalize that, and what VMWare's doing is fantastic. I mean I'm so proud to be part of this company that's doing this. And you Shelly talked about change right? She said, "I think, right now the way I feel "about this whole thing, is we need to stop talking about "diversity and inclusion, we just need to say "enough is enough, this is important, let's just do it." >> Lisa: We should make this a part of our DNA. >> Exactly. Just make it, why do we have to fight for all this, right? It's just pointless and you know, men have wives and daughters and mothers and you know, It impacts societies as a whole and organizations, and we have so much research on this and what I like about what the Stanford Research Lab is doing is, they're actually working with woman all the way from middle-school to high-school to the executive suite, and that's amazing because research has now shown, there was a report in March 2014 by a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, for Judith Warner, and so she documented, just with the rate of change, like I talked with all the percentages and the number of women CEOs, just with that rate of change, the equality of men and women at the top will not occur until 2085. >> Lisa: Oh my goodness. >> That's 63 years from now. That means all our daughters would be retired by then. My daughters was born on 2013 and so she won't live in a world of female leaders that's representative of the population. And so that realization actually really, really, really broke my heart and that made me want to write this book, to create these role models. And what Stanford is doing, is they're going to work on this and I'm hoping that they can make that transition sooner. Like we don't have to wait 'till 2085. I want this for my daughter. >> It has to be accelerated, yes. >> It has to be accelerated and I think all of us need to do that, our daughters should be in the 20s, 30s when this happens, not when they're in their 70s. >> Lisa: And retired. >> And retired, I mean we don't want that. And we don't know how that number's going to get pushed further, right? Like if we don't do anything now... It. (exhales) >> Lisa: Right. 2085 becomes, what? >> I know! It's insane. >> In the spirit of being persistent, with the theme of this 3rd annual Wt Squared being Inclusion in Action, you're a manager and in a people or hiring role, tell me about the culture on your team and how your awareness and your passion for creating change here, lasting change. How are you actually creating that inclusion through action in your role at VMWare? >> So what I do is when I have to hire engineers on my team, I talk to my recruiter, have a conversation, I'm like, "I need more diversity." It's just not women, I want diversity with the men too. I want different races, different cultures because I believe that if I have a diverse team I'm going to be successful. So it's almost like I'm being selfish but that is very important. So I have that conversation with my recruiters, so I kind have an expectation set. And then we go through their hiring process and I'm very aware of just the hiring panel, like who I put on the panel, I make sure to have at least a women on the panel and have some diversity. My team right now is not really that diverse and I'm working hard to make that because it is hard, you know the pipeline has to get built at a certain point, and then start getting those resumes, but I try to have at least one female on the panel, and during the selection process the first thing I'll tell them is, let's get the elephant out of the room, age, gender, whatever, like let's take that out, let's just talk about skills and how well this person has done in an interview. And that's how I conducted and you know I've had fairly good success of hiring women on the team. But I've also seen that it's hard to retain women because they tend to drop-out faster than the men and so it's constant, it's just constant work to make that happen. >> Yeah. I wish we had more time to talk about retention because it is a huge issue. So the book is Nevertheless, She Persisted. Where can people get a copy of the book? >> So you can get it on Amazon, that's, I think, the best place to get it. You can also get it from my publisher's site which is FriesenPress. >> Excellent well Pratima thank you so much for stopping by. >> Thank you. >> And sharing your passion, how your persisting, and how you're also helping more of us learn how to find that voice and pursue our passions, thank you. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching. We are TheCUBE on the ground at VMWare for the Third Annual Women Transforming Technology Event. I'm Lisa Martin thanks for watching. (upbeat music)