>> Announcer: Live from Miami Beach, Florida, it's theCUBE covering VeeamON 2019. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Welcome back to Miami everybody. This is Dave Volante with Peter Burris and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise, and we're here at VeeamON 2019 in Miami at the Fontainebleau Hotel. Raj Perumal is here. He's the CIO of Ducks Unlimited, Canada-based wetland and waterfowl conservation. Great to have you on theCUBE, thanks. >> Thank you. >> The keynote yesterday was awesome. You guys were talking about some of things that you're doing. We're going to get into that. You made a great statement. You said "the wetlands are the kidneys of the world." >> Raj: Yes. >> You know, explain that. >> (laughs) Sure, so, most people are very familiar with the Amazon rain forest, right? When you think about saving the planet and saving the environment, that's where everyone's mind or eyes go to, right? Well, wetlands are Mother Nature's way of essentially filtering water, stopping overland flooding, and so on. So, that's why we say they are the kidneys of the earth. >> Yeah, and so talk a little bit about the trends in the earth. It's been very challenging, right? I mean despite the great work that you're doing, you're still fighting this battle which sometimes might feel unwinnable. But give us the data, yeah. >> Absolutely, urban expansion, right? At the end of the day, you know as humans we're going across the planet. We're constantly building more cities, more parking lots, more everything, right? So wetlands are getting replaced with various things. Same thing with various resource mining, et cetera. Wetlands go away. So what Ducks Unlimited likes to do is adopt a no net loss policy. So what we do is we work closely with governments in various provinces across Canada. So if someone destroys an acre of wetlands, we can try and restore maybe four or ten acres for every one destroyed. It's better not to destroy it in the first place, but if it's going to happen, restore it somewhere else. >> Dave: So, some of the stats I saw. You've done 12,000 projects since you started this in the 1930's. 163.5 million acres that you have preserved. And as I say, still the wetlands loss is enormous. Is it not regulated to the point where public policy can help? >> Raj: Well, there's policy and there's law. And when it comes to Canada, there's policy but there's always exceptions. So what ends up happening is, you have these policies that say you can't do this, but then there's exception, exception, exception, exception. And usually corporations can get a way through some various exception and actually get through. Ducks Unlimited helped pass a law in Quebec not too long ago, so we actually have it in law in Quebec where it is actually being supported. >> So, the old adage that if you can't measure it, it doesn't get done. >> That's right. >> One of the most amazing things about some of these digital transformations is satellite imagery, other types of weather and related data, are making it possible to track typology in unbelievable minute detail. >> Absolutely. >> Peter: Now that's got to help you, but at the same time, it's got to really dramatically require a greater focal point on things like data protection. Especially since operational time series for wetlands is not measured in nanoseconds. It's measured in years. >> That's right. >> So you got to be able to use this technology to both enhance your mission right now, but also be able to show over time how things are changing. Have I got that right? >> That's absolutely correct. With climate change as an example, and yes, that's a real thing. With climate change, you're measuring, We want to keep data like over 30 years. And that's where we actually see true change. We're just talking about five, ten years. That's just weather, that's not climate change, right? So we need to keep that data. So yes, we have a whole GIS department, Geographical Information Systems, where we have satellite imagery, drone imagery of Canada, going years and years and years back. We have to keep all of that data and we can never get rid of it. >> So what does this mission have to do with Veeam? >> Sure, absolutely. So with all of that data, GIS data is very imagery intense. So think of it like x-rays or CAD. So it takes up a lot of space. So we have to back up that data. Every map has layers and layers and layers, so it's almost like a Google Maps for the environment. You can think of it that way. We run something called the Canadian Wetland Inventory. It's the largest inventory of wetlands, mapping of wetlands, in Canada. And we leave that as open data, so anyone can access the data and use it. So we use Veeam to back all of that up, and also to maintain our disaster recovery and so on for all our different operations. That's just one aspect of our operations, another big part, and you talked about the 12,000 projects we were doing. We started a division called conservation technology which is all about using technology to monitor the wetlands. So putting internet of things sensors out in the wetlands, gathering that data automatically through satellite and cellular networks, analyzing it with artificial intelligence and machine learning. Once we have that, we can get those insights, give them to our scientists or PhDs where the big minds can go and crunch that and go and look at it and go, okay, this is what's happening in the world. We need to back that data up too. And once again, going back to what I said before, we need to keep that data over long periods of time so we can actually see patterns and figure out what's going on with our planet. >> Do you do video on the ground as well? I mean, you're right Peter. With satellite imagery, you can get pretty minute detail. But then, like the ground truth, sometimes you got to go on the ground. . Are you capturing video on the ground? >> A little bit, not a lot. >> Dave: The changes in flora and fauna? Do you see that as useful in the future? Or is it just too much data or not as useful to sort of deploy those kind of cameras? >> I would love to be able to capture all of that data real-time. The problem with that is in Canada, our internet infrastructure is quite poor in the rural areas. In some places, you have better-than-dial-up speeds. That's it. So unfortunately, we can't bring that data back. So a lot of the times, we can't capture the video. But where we can, we do. >> Dave: Okay, but so you are putting sensors there and so talk more about that data. What are you doing with that data? Does that come back into a cloud? Yes, so we pull that into the cloud, Microsoft Azure, where we analyze it and do that AI and machine learning, and then spit it out from there. So we are in the hybrid cloud. So we have some stuff internally, some in the public cloud. A little mixture of everything. That's where Veeam comes into play. >> So I had a couple questions. One is on the data source side and one is on the data sync side, starting with the data sync. Certainly, climate scientists and others, folks who are looking at geopolitics and other types of things, are taking this kind of information and they're using it as a source for even more complex and advanced applications. Are you seeing communities evolve and emerge and evolve in response to the availability of your data? >> Absolutely, people are clamoring for more though. Everyone wants real-time data. A lot of our data is manually gathered at this point. We have people driving out to a specific project in the middle of nowhere, gathering the data manually, driving back and then uploading it because that's the only way we can do it. So, absolutely, we are seeing people wanting more use of it and making use of that data, but they want it live. They want it right now. We kind of live in an instant-on society, right? But once again, the challenges of rural areas kind of tie our hands. >> Well that was my second question. Do you see an opportunity to do crowdsourcing of video or other types of information? >> Absolutely. >> So is that becoming a way and are you using artificial intelligence? Start taking an extended number of data sources as people go out and take pictures of ducks, or whatever else it is, and then ingesting that into your system. Does that become part of the flow? >> Yeah, absolutely, so that kind of takes us back to the 1930's when Ducks first started. We had the key men of old that actually kind of stewarded their local areas for conservation. So, absolutely, we can use crowdsourcing in this day and age, and it's something we want to explore. We're not doing it yet, but we're getting there. >> How is your data pipeline? 1930's, you know the data, the data model in 1930's is a lot different than it is today. The keynote speaker today talked about the sort of bending of the innovation curve and how the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years we're going to see more change than we've ever seen before. We'll see. But the data model that you guys are doing, I mean at least in the last 10 years you've seen new technologies come out, new processes. How are you evolving that data model? >> It's more like data models. (laughs) For the various line of business because we do so many different things, right? But essentially what we're trying to do-- >> The big thing is keeping it all connected. Keeping it all in sync. Implementing things like master data management. We're a big partner with Dell Boomi for example. So we leverage them to move our data back and forth between all our systems, et cetera, while Veeam backs it up. So I would say it's hugely important to be continually pushing the envelope and how you move data and how you synchronize data, how you authenticate that data and how you verify that data. Especially in science, you want to make sure that it's not being tampered with. You got to make sure that the data is consistent and true. >> Raj, how long have you been in this role? >> At Ducks Unlimited? A little over two years, but in the industry, over 25. >> So Veeam at Ducks preceded you, is that right? >> No, I brought it in. >> Dave: So you brought it in? Talk about that. Why did you bring it in and what was going on before? Maybe tell us a before and after. >> Sure, absolutely. So I actually used to be on the reseller side of the business. I used to be a CIO for one of the larger IT consulting companies in Canada. And during my time there, I brought Veeam into the province of Manitoba and spent a lot of time with various different customers, putting Veeam into various different projects and company types. So lots of exposure to the product. So when I came into Ducks Unlimited Canada, I already came in knowing what was possible, and gave the existing backup product a shot because I didn't necessarily want to rip and replace everything on my team with the CIO coming in day one. >> Dave: New sheriff in town! Ugh, who's this guy? >> But when it wasn't doing exactly what I needed it to do, we decided to bring Veeam in and the rest is basically history. >> Talk more about that. What was the business impact of bringing-- >> Oh sure, absolutely, so before Veeam, we were spending over 40 hours a week just administering backups. >> Peter: 40 hours a week? >> Yeah, easily. And we have large data sets, and so as I was talking about in the keynote, with those large data sets, if you're doing a backup or a restore, especially a restore, if it fails, you can blow a day trying to get that data back. And so you've lost a day. So that's how you easily end up losing that much time. Especially with an organization where you have 27 locations across Canada, and 500 staff, and 4,500 volunteers all accessing this data in some way, shape, or form. So by moving to Veeam, all those tasks that we used to do before, just worked. Veeam always says "it just works." It's true. And so what ended up happening is stuff that was taking the team a week, all of a sudden was taking them minutes. Like literally minutes. And it's unbelievable. That FT, that full-time equivalent staff member all of a sudden becomes freed up to do the work I was talking about in conservation technology and other areas of our business. We're directly impacting science on the planet, so a lot more fun that just supporting regular IT. >> So you have that 40 hours, was arms and legs of the team? And how large was the team? >> 16. >> So six, zero? >> Raj: 16. >> 16! Okay, so it was 16, pieces of 16. Which a lot of times, people hear that and they're like oh, it's going to reduce jobs. I don't want to talk about that. But these guys must have hated that. That job, the 40 hours-- >> Absolutely, they're doing mund-numbing work, right? >> Dave: It's interruptive and-- >> Yeah, and so now they're doing a lot funner stuff, right? >> What funner stuff are they doing? >> Absolutely, so once again being involved directly with conservation technology and our IOT play and all of that AI and machine learning research. All the sexy stuff in IT that's happening now, right? So they're very happy. >> You guys got a pretty interesting IOT use case. So how, I'm curious as to, you know we've been watching various companies come in and announce their grand IOT strategies and say "Okay we're going to bring this box to the edge." What are your thoughts on IOT, the edge, all those sort of buzz words. How do you look at it from a practitioner and a customer standpoint? >> It's very much like building a mobile app. So, you know everyone says we need an app for their company, right? They don't know why they need an app. They just say they need an app. And then they go and build that app and then nothing happens with it, right? And then it all fails. IOT is much the same way. Internet of things, AI, machine learning, it's all the buzz words. But then you need to understand what you want to get out of it in the first place. Like where are you trying to go? What are you trying to do? What are you trying to accomplish? And then if IOT fits that, AI, machine learning, if that fits that, then great. And if it doesn't, then don't waste your time. That's my thought. >> So, specifically, what's your IOT strategy? What can you accomplish with edge? >> Absolutely, if we can get instant live data streaming into the cloud and actively analyzing it on the fly using cloud services like Azure, AI, machine learning IOT et cetera, or even Amazon services, a lot of different services out there. If we can do that on the fly and feed that into the Canadian Wetland Inventory that I was talking about before, using open data initiatives, we can now feed data to the planet about what's happening real-time to academia, to governments, et cetera, so they can make decisions with evidentiary-based statistics, right? Right now it's very hard for, this is why the fight over climate change, people go "There is such a thing." Other people go, "No there isn't", and this happens because there's not enough data available to the general public, right? So by having this open data and making it available to the general public, not just the scientific communities, I think that would go a long way to helping get support for these causes. >> That's awesome, changing the world. What are the skill sets you need to achieve that vision? Is it data science-heavy? Can you sort of outsource some of that? Is the tooling simplified enough now? Talk about that. >> It's a little bit of networking, little bit of data science, a lot of GIS, and a lot of old fashioned networking and talking to people, right? So that's really what makes up the team and allows us to do what we do. >> Are you hiring data scientists? >> Not at the moment, no. We have everyone we need. >> But you have data scientists on staff. >> Yes, exactly. Because even before the IOT thing, we have scientists on staff that do just that, right? It's just in the traditional sense, before that. >> So did you sort of create that role? Take somebody who's good in math and computers and stats and say "Hey, you're the data scientist now. Go do some training and make it happen." Or did you actually hire in a data scientist? >> We actually created that role, so we have numerous people that feed different aspects of that, but the main man that's actually running that for me is our right hand man and your manager of IT. He started as a biologist that became a GIS guy that became my manager of IT. So he has a little bit of experience in all these different areas and he's like the perfect person to run the conservation technology division for us. >> Cool. >> And he's here today. >> Oh really? So what do you think of VeeamOn? Have you been to previous Veeam shows? >> Yeah, most of them actually. >> Dave: Really? >> It's great, yeah. >> Oh, that's awesome, seeing the CIO crowd hang out with all us backup wonks. So, thoughts from the show, takeaways? >> Sure, absolutely. Well, first of all, if anyone isn't using Veeam, they should be using it already. I got to say that right now. So many people waste their time picking and choosing and hemming and hawing. Just use it, it just works. So please do that. You won't regret it whatsoever. Veeam has done some really great things. I love the announcements with Orchestrator in version 2 there, and some of the good things that are coming with the restore plans and the scopes, et cetera. And that's fantastic. So I think there's a lot of great things that Veeam is bringing to data management and data availability. >> Yeah, so they made a big deal out of being able to do restores from the backup corpus. Not having to go to a replicated chunk of data. Why is that important for you, and will you take advantage of that? >> It's just the speed. It's just the speed, so I don't have to bring it back from another place, right? It's just instant. >> Yeah, okay, so then you're going to use that other place for disaster recovery or just a second copy for just in case? >> Yup! >> But you've got basically a local copy that you can bring back instantaneously. Okay, great. And I presume that supports your sort of compressed RTO and RPO. Which, as long as I've been in this business, they've shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. >> Yup, that's right. >> Shrunk the RPO. Great, okay, I'll give you final words. Cool stuff you're working on, things you'd like to see our industry do better, you pick it. >> Sure, cool stuff we're working on. So, talking about what we're doing at Ducks Unlimited with IT and really kind of changing the shape of IT and how it's involved in science, and I talked about Wetland Inventory, that live data, et cetera. If we can build a model like that here, imagine what we can do across the world, right? I'd love to take that model and take it to other countries where they can do the same type of work, so altruistically, and share that data, that whole open data initiative, so other people can go and save wetlands. If we can get everyone working together that way, I think we'll all be better off. >> That's awesome, Raj, thank you so much for coming to theCUBE, sharing your insights and experiences. Appreciate it. All right, keep it right there buddy. We'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE live from VeeamON 2019 from Miami. We'll be right back.