>> Narrator: theCUBE presents KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon Europe, 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain. A coverage of KubeCon, Cloud NativeCon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. Your host of theCUBE, along with Paul Gillum, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for Silicon Angle, Enrico, Senior IT Analyst for GigaOm . This has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food, this is just unexpected. I mean, it escalated from what I understand, it went from capping it off at 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in it off finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for... Today's been a great dead coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage from theCUBE, but first off, we'll let the the new person on stage take the first question of the wrap up of the day of coverage, Enrico, what's different about this year versus other KubeCons or Cloud Native conversations. >> I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk a lot about day two operations, observability, monitoring, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around FinOps, around cost control, because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And if you don't have everything optimized, control, monitored, costs go to the roof and think about deploying the Public Cloud . If your application is not optimized, you're paying more. But also in that, on-premises if you are not optimized, you don't have any clear idea what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare, that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, really exciting actually, less infrastructure, more application. That is what Kubernetes is in here. >> Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. There is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that Enterprise Architects, Executives, need to take home and really chew on? >> Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. Docker was introduced nine years ago, and for the first three or four years it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward IT Managers, towards CIOs, this is very much geared toward developers. When you have the hearts and minds of developers the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest area of the entire computing industry right now, is in this area building Distributed services, Microservices based, Cloud Native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's a significant shift. I don't see the Managers here, the CIOs here. These are the people who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >> One of the interesting things that I've seen when we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with an icon from MoneyGram, who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect, and he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers, and they rejected it. They said, what is this? I just want to develop code. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers or the developers are here, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have Enterprise Architect here. I hear constantly that the Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >> Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, everything has changed to a point and now the developer understands, is neural. So, going through the application, APIs, automation, because the complexity of this application is huge, and you have, 724 kind of development sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on, et cetera, et cetera. And actually, to the point of developers bringing this new generation of decision makers in there. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow IT at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the Executive, says what are... They discover that the technology is already in place is a critical component, and then it's transformed in something enterprise, meaning paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure support contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these guys are the real decision makers, or they are at the base of the decision making process, at least >> Cloud Native is something we're going to learn to take for granted. When you remember back, remember the Fail Whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just crash from traffic, or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take Cloud Native for granted. We assume applications are going to be available. They're going to be performant. They're going to scale. They're going to handle anything we throw at them. That is Cloud Native at work. And I think we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have an internet that really works for you. >> Yeah, I think we're much earlier in the journey. We had Microsoft on, the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running Linkerd some of the initial problems and pain points around those challenges. Much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we see or hear or told? Or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example, where central IT is getting it. And not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to simply write code, build it, and Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the Holy Grail to make Kubernetes invisible and Cloud Native invisible, and the experience is much closer to Cloud. >> So I think that, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original traditional IT operations are disappearing. So it's just that traditional IT operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay, so it's a sort of walled garden, you don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal Cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private Cloud, the private Cloud as let's say the same identical paradigm of the Public Cloud is not possible, because there are no infinite resources or well, whatever we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can do automatic operationing and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So IT operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think an interesting time for all of it. >> Kubernetes and Cloud Native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities. Obviously with DevOps, those two are emerging. But now we're moving when you add in shift left testing, shift right testing, DevSecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is going to cause, I think IT organizations to have to do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're going to run on. >> So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >> Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year, of course, really, ever since the pandemic started. Interestingly, one of our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available, because people who were tied to their companies because of their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater and suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the startups, there are many small startups here, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the tech stock bust. Nevertheless, skills are a long term problem. The US educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >> So Enrico, last question to you. Let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out there. 200 plus sponsors I hear, I think is worth the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level Cloud builder? Or should it be at those levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >> I think that it's a good question. The answer is not that easy. I mean, being a developer today, for sure, grants you a salary at the end of the month. I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical figures in the data center, in the Cloud, that could really find easily a job today. So, developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be somebody that supports operation because you know automation, you know a few other things. So you can be a sysadmin of the next generation even if you are a developer, even if when you start as a developer. >> KubeCon 2022, is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer, practitioner, a investor, IT decision maker, CIO, CXO, there's so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder, I'm not going to say you're going to get sick of this because it's just, it's all great information, we'll help sort all of this. From Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host Enrico Signoretti, Paul Gillum, and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering ZertoCON 2018. Brought to you by Zerto. >> This is theCUBE, I'mm Paul Gillin. We're here at ZertoCON 2018 in Boston, final day of ZertoCON, a beautiful May day, and the key note we heard this morning by John Morency, Gardener analyst, talking about resilience, which is something you've been doing for the last 11 years at Gardener, I understand. >> Yeah, that's right Paul. >> My career at Gardener has really been focused primarily on recovery, continuity, resilience. I've had the good fortune to have done well over 10,000 inquiries with about 3300 organizations across the world. And if nothing else, it's given me a good opportunity to see what's happening, what's not happening in that area, how services and how the technologies of all things, it's been a lot of fun. >> You said something that struck me this morning, you said that two years ago you were sort of a voice in the wilderness talking about resilience. Today it's a mainstream topic. What has changed in that time? >> I think a couple things, number one, so what's happened to resilience in the past couple years, what's changed, number one, the impact in digital business. With digital business, given that it's always on operation, that it scans both production data centers and public clouds, the trying to apply some older technologies or methodologies like disaster recovery to a digital business, and always on digital business, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I think what happened was that we began to see both internally as well as externally, a significant rise in customer inquiries, specific to resilience. So, for example, from the calendar year 2017 to 2018, year over year, we've seen a 30, 35% increase in customer related inquiries. Actually we began to sense that something was really going on at our infrastructure and operations data center, so back in 2015 I had about 40 inquiries during that conference and resilience came up in about 75%, and it wasn't just financial services, it wasn't just healthcare, it wasn't just telecom providers, it was lots of different verticals. And so at that time, my conclusion was that something interesting is going on here, but I don't think sometimes that what's happening at a lot of individual clients, sometimes always translates or flows back what Gardener covers from a research standpoint, but I think with e-business, with the focus especially around cyber resilience, threat attack mitigation, if nothing else, cyber attack resilience is probably getting one of the most significant drivers to create the need for resilience. And I think what's happened there is that it's actually pulled through some of the operations availability, some of the data integrity management and so on. So I think without a doubt, cyber resilience has been probably the most significant driver that's really changed. >> When you think back six or eight years ago, it wasn't uncommon for Amazon to go down, or Twitter, the Fail Whale, some big services would go offline sometimes for hours. We don't hear about that anymore. And is that because it's a common place? Or are these organizations now so good at resilience that they virtually eliminate a down time? >> Down time never gets eliminated. We had an interesting discussion with Amazon a few years back, and the perspective that they shared with us was: "Look, we're getting better at sustaining "continuity and availability, "but we'll be the first to admit "that things happen, unexpected things happen, "and they can be the result of an external event "which you can't control, "it can be the result of an internal event.' What's happened is that there's a separation of duties that's interesting to note. So if you look at Amazon and Microsoft and Google, they do a great job at keeping the infrastructure, the cloud services, the infrastructure, the service, alive and humming and scalable, and elastic and so on. However, when you look at what's going on in the context of either a virtual machine, or a container or some other type of compute instance, that's where the provider's responsibilities end from an availability point of view, from a data integrity point of view. And so that's where even though the providers themselves have great service levels, so Amazon may report five nines, six nines, whatever happens to be in terms of unplanned down time, you can still have disruptions for specific customers within virtual private clouds that may be the result of, it could be an external attack, it could be a mass supply change. And so this duality in terms of unplanned downtime from the cloud providers perspective, but from the cloud customers perspective, and the two quite often are very different. >> Interesting point. Now also seeing the emergence of some new computing paradigms, containers, a huge phenomenon right now, serverless computing, microservices in which computers instances may be spun up for literally milliseconds for connections, is that going to create a resilience problem? Or does it, in fact, solve resilience problems? >> I think it could be a little of both. Certainly when you make the compute service less complex in their fewer moving parts, and you leave the orchestration of the service fulfillment function in the hands of the provider who can do a better job at that. That could certainly have an impact on improving the level of resilience. Not just from the provider's point of view, obviously, but from the provider's customer point of view. But with microservices or containers or what have you, there's still the issue of sustainable data integrity. How do I know that my data is what I expect it to be, where I expect it to be, has there been any unplanned change? Because some of the changes in data can be the result of things that have happened internally as well as externally with a given service service provider customer. And so, from that point of view, certainly the fewer moving parts are reduced complexity, the orchestration automation a provider provides no doubt that will help. I think at the same time, there's still some issues, especially around data integrity, cyber tech mitigation, data protection, that I think will still be specific issues and opportunities for cloud provider customers to focus on. >> Now we're about to see companies very excited about the inner and outer things and the possibility of getting into streaming data, really large scale data collection about to come online. What kind of new resilience challenges will that present? >> I think, getting back to what we were talking about earlier, when we look at streaming services or inner and outer things, it's the additional complexity, it's the value chain, if you will. The service deliver chain between the source and the destination, so more moving parts creates opportunity for greater complexity. There's no one entity that is responsible from the serviced assurance point of view for each and every component part. So certainly there's a huge opportunity from a new business opportunity, and a service fulfillment point of view, but from a resilience point of view, given that you have more moving parts that you have distributed entities responsible for managing that, it does create some new risk, new issues, but also new opportunities. Have we as an industry solved all those yet? Not really, I think this is very much a work in progress. >> We've got also, the tremendous focus now on information governance, particularly the new regulations coming online, companies trying to get a better handle on the data that they've got, do these disciplines merge at some point, resilience and governance? >> Very much so, very much so. It gets back to the question, one of the key questions around resilience is who is responsible and accountable for making business and operations resilience within an organization happen? And one of the things that we've seen if you look at it from a senior management point of view, really the responsibility, I think, is co-owned by both the chief risk officer and the chief information officer, and probably you could add the chief information security officer on top of that. But since resilience in many ways is top down, it's not just at the infrastructure level. It has culture implications, it has business process implications, it even has implications on what the individuals within the organization need to know about, what they need to be aware of. All of that is related to effective, top down governance. And in the key note this morning we spoke about that bank that I've worked with. They had that problem in spades in terms of different businesses, different geographies, where to start in terms of the governance model. Where to start, what services and what geographies with what business opportunities? But even with that initial focus, had the bank entirely address it's resilience challenge? Not really and that's a process that likely will take several years to complete. >> And plenty for you to talk about with your clients, those inquiries in the coming years. >> John: Absolutely, absolutely. >> No shortage of changes there. John Morency, thanks very much for joining us. >> My pleasure, Paul. >> We're here in ZertoCON 2018 in Boston, I'm Paul Gillin, this is theCUBE. (upbeat techno music)