>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is theCUBE's continuous virtual in-depth coverage of the people, processes, and technologies that are changing our world. Right now we're going to talk about modernization and the Synergy with Cloud. And we're pleased to welcome Doug Armbrust, who's the VP GTS Cloud Synergy. Hey Doug, how you doing? >> Great, Dave. I'm excited to be on theCUBE, thanks for having me. >> It's our pleasure. Hey, let's talk a little bit of tech. What are some of the technologies that your clients are applying on their path to modernization? >> Sure. I'll give you three examples and three that we're seeing a lot of interest in from a services standpoint. One is automation. Automation is an area that's been a focus for Several decades but We're seeing a renewed excitement around the opportunity for automated operations. Really, I'll talk about two other technologies but the extension of automation and to some of the newer cloud technologies. So that's one. Two is cloud. Cloud has been a terminal industry for a while now and folks have been at various points of a journey to cloud-centric models and technologies. We're seeing an even accelerated transition to not just public cloud but also private cloud technologies, and in particular, need to interconnect those with one another and with a traditional environments. The last one, I think there's been a bit of a referendum on the technology over the last year is around containers, specifically Kubernetes, as a standard for that space. A cementing of direction around containers. Clearly, people are different stages of implementation and experimentation with the technology but I do see a referendum on this being a fundamental part of future technology and direction. >> So, okay. So automation, cloud, and containers. I'm going to ask you a follow up on containers because it's clear that when you look at all the data, it's off the charts in terms of adoption and ultimately our scenario is okay, it gets subsumed into the stack. But where Where the customers ultimately want to go? Obviously, they're upskilling but what's the outcome that they're trying to achieve? >> Yeah, it's a good question. General question of the ask a modernization. I like modern things. We'd like to live in a modern house, my wife likes a farmhouse so guess where we live. (laughs loudly) We live in a farm house with Modernized appliances and infrastructure. >> New cost to live with. (laughs loudly) >> Ultimately, enterprises, they're working back from an objective, and that objective, had this term digital transformation for about a decade. Underneath that umbrella, it's about being able to move and respond quickly. It's about being able to create innovation and accelerate innovation. I think probably most important is deliver on a customer experience and end customer experience. 10 years ago, what I expected when I went to a restaurant was a If I could look them up on the internet and find their location, use my GPS, get there, I was good to go. A year ago, I'm looking for Use an app, them to remember my favorite place to sit. Very different expectations and that pressure on enterprise, to meet those end expectations is really at the heart of The modernization and part of that's Infrastructure modernization containers is interesting because it brings together, not just infrastructure, brings together how application development cycles are being implemented. It has implications for security that Can be positive if done right. We do see that as A key area to meet the end and business objectives. It's going to take some time. IDC, I think is the most bullish. They took like 80% of workloads. By 2023, we'll shift to containers. I believe that for newly created workloads. I think developers have got this in their hands and they understand the efficiencies for their own work as well as when this moves to production. This sort of DevSecOps model, kind of comes with containers if done right. There's a legacy that's going to be around a long time, helping customers understand those operating models and how to live with them both is going to be important over the next five to 10 years. >> You're talking about those drivers responsiveness, the innovation, et cetera. I live in an old house too and there's another component here which is that 80%, reasonable people could discuss that, because there's a risk component, right? I can modernize my house but I could jack up one into the house but it might mess up something that I just did. And so, CIO is obviously a risk-averse, they want to modernize but at the same time, they want to get from point a to point b with minimum disruption. To that end, I wonder if you could talk about what you saw during the pandemic. We're still in the pandemic but you had a reduction in budgets, virtually across the board, minus four, minus 5% in spending, had a shift toward work from home, whatever, VDI, laptops, rushed endpoint security, that whole thing. A lot of organizations try to do both. They said, "Hey, we're actually going to double down on digital transformation." We see this as a lean and opportunity. We got liquidity. How did COVID influence modernization initiatives in your client base? >> It impacted different clients in different ways. Some, as you mentioned, I almost view it as very Darwinian in the sense that those who had modernized and had capabilities, more deeply automated were ready for the transition that they had to go through so they were able to quickly shift to work from home. They were able to deliver on new client experiences, the analogy before in digital transformation, those pressures never went away, but COVID just brought new ones, and they expected all of those things but now they expected the restaurant They expect the restaurant to bring that food to my door and do it in a safe manner. The challenges it brought on organizations were In many cases, new. Some who were in a good position could accelerate work in place and leverage that. Others had a harder time, right? Those who couldn't translate technology to immediate returns, to kind of fuel that ongoing progress, had to make some hard decisions. I would say that's probably the single trend, projects are very carefully reviewed. There's that view of "Will this help me now and into the future?" That's always present but it's present in a stronger manner than we would've have seen it for some time. In that envelope, can I come back to within those three technologies? Automation has certainly We've seen a jump because of its nature. What we see in automation projects is A faster time to implement and achieve some of the agility and flexibility that cloud provides but can take a longer timeframe if you haven't gotten far along in your cloud journey. Containers, even longer timeframe. So a lot of folks are looking at automation projects, particularly those that weren't as well positioned for sort of a quick turn and then taking that automation work and extending it into cloud and containers, as those initiatives progress. >> There are definitely some historical parallels and I could even go back to Y2K and look at all the application rationalization exercises that were going on back then. The technologies were different. You didn't have the modern cloud, containers have been around forever but not in the form of Kubernetes. The automation was scary back then but nonetheless, people were trying to use scripts or whatever they could do. But now, it's almost like an automation mandate, if you were in a digital business, you were out of business. So what are the What are some of the learnings that you've seen from these modernization journeys that you're taking customers on that you might be able to share. >> Let me comment on automation first, I'll say it more generally. I think automation, you're right, we're not finding enterprises that are doing things manually. Everybody's gotten at least to kind of that scripting point. And then we see That has its own journey. Then there's centralization and folks trusting the automation to enable self-service. That's sort of a Kind of a tipping point to who is ready for COVID and who wasn't. Those who had hardened their automation to enable self-service generally could then call on that self service to meet the new demands that they were facing. The next stage and we see less folks there, we get into this sort of Infrastructure as code. We talk about areas of intelligence in your automation. You talk about trust, not as many have progressed to where they trust their automation to Proactively, maybe sometimes reactively respond to a situation or set of You have to be very integrated at that point and you have to really believe in your automation. You then talk about integrating AI to sense, respond, make decisions and bring those back into your automation technologies. I'd say, that's still very future but folks are very intrigued by that. Your more general question, what's sort of some of the learnings. Really goes back to Modernization needs to have a business school. That's become maybe more clear than it was a year and a half ago. In the absence of that, IT projects have always had some degree of failure. It's just the evidence of that failures, probably a little bit more poignant. Related to that, is there needs to be a strategic plan and in particular with modernization, it's easy to get caught up with the modern side. And Dave, you were kind of alluded to this before. If you're not thinking about the old, the connection to the legacy, that's a very common kind of failure signature. It's a marching ahead with the modernization, without a strategic plan and connect those things and an ability to kind of tackle a piece at a time. Sometimes budgets go away and that's a problem. Each step in the journey is really the third lesson. Needs to have incremental value. It needs to kind of pay back something to help fund the next stage of modernization. I'd say the last one and it's self-serving for us as a services company. It's helpful to have a partner on these journeys. In my particular area of focus, in a year and a half, we've had 1,600 engagements. A lot of those engagements are people coming to us after making what they now view as mistakes. Some of the three areas I just mentioned. And being able to bring somebody in with experience with maybe some complimentary skills that can partner within an enterprise can be very helpful to avoid some of the pitfalls. >> I think, your point is right on. I've seen horror stories where people Literally, we're going to go off the mainframe. They got decades old COBOL code that's working just fine and they literally risked their business trying to brute force migrate off and they never could We're not going to freeze the code. It's just horror stories. But today's different, you can actually build an abstraction layer, leverage cloud services, and Kubernetes, and the like, use microservices to actually connect the old to the new. And that's the hardest part, again, old house analogies. I've done a lot of connecting the old to the new, that's the hardest part. You got to be really careful but today the technologies are enabling to do that and one of them is Obviously, things like OpenShift. The definition of open, again, a little history here, it used to be Unix was open and then Windows and then Linux, the LAMP stack. But really That piece of your portfolio is a critical part to enable these types of moves. >> Absolutely. It's exciting that technologies are there and there's a path forward. And it's great to Great to work with a partner, who's maybe, done that 10 or 15 times, or more and have them help guide you on that path. But the good news is there is Enabling technologies to transform in a number of ways, depending on what the business objectives are for an enterprise. >> Cool. All right, Doug, we've got to go. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It's great to see you. >> Okay, same Dave. >> All right. >> Appreciate it. >> Keep it right there everybody. This is Dave Vellante. You're watching IBM Think 2021. The virtual edition covered on theCUBE. (bouncy music)

(soothing music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is theCUBE's continuous virtual in-depth coverage of the people, processes, and technologies that are changing our world. Right now we're going to talk about modernization and the Synergy with Cloud. And we're pleased to welcome Doug Armbrust, who's the VP GTS Cloud Synergy. Hey Doug, how you doing? >> Great, Dave. I'm excited to be on theCUBE, thanks for having me. >> It's our pleasure. Hey, let's talk a little bit of tech. What are some of the technologies that your clients are applying on their path to modernization? >> Sure. I'll give you three examples and three that we're seeing a lot of interest in from a services standpoint. One is automation. Automation is an area that's been a focus for... Several decades but... We're seeing a renewed excitement around the opportunity for automated operations. Really, I'll talk about two other technologies but the extension of automation and to some of the newer cloud technologies. So that's one. Two is cloud. Cloud has been a terminal industry for a while now and folks have been at various points of a journey to cloud-centric models and technologies. We're seeing an even accelerated transition to not just public cloud but also private cloud technologies, and in particular, need to interconnect those with one another and with a traditional environments. The last one, I think there's been a bit of a referendum on the technology over the last year is around containers, specifically Kubernetes, as a standard for that space. A cementing of direction around containers. Clearly, people are different stages of implementation and experimentation with the technology but I do see a referendum on this being a fundamental part of future technology and direction. >> So, okay. So automation, cloud, and containers. I'm going to ask you a follow up on containers because it's clear that when you look at all the data, it's off the charts in terms of adoption and ultimately our scenario is okay, it gets subsumed into the stack. But where... Where the customers ultimately want to go? Obviously, they're upskilling but what's the outcome that they're trying to achieve? >> Yeah, it's a good question. General question of the ask a modernization. I like modern things. We'd like to live in a modern house, my wife likes a farmhouse so guess where we live. (laughs loudly) We live in a farm house with... Modernized appliances and infrastructure. >> New cost to live with. (laughs loudly) >> Ultimately, enterprises, they're working back from an objective, and that objective, had this term digital transformation for about a decade. Underneath that umbrella, it's about being able to move and respond quickly. It's about being able to create innovation and accelerate innovation. I think probably most important is deliver on a customer experience and end customer experience. 10 years ago, what I expected when I went to a restaurant was a... If I could look them up on the internet and find their location, use my GPS, get there, I was good to go. I'm looking for... Use an app, them to remember my favorite place to sit. Very different expectations and that pressure on enterprise, to meet those annex and expectations is really at the heart of... The modernization and part of that's... Infrastructure modernization containers is interesting because it brings together, not just infrastructure, brings together how application development cycles are being implemented. It has implications for security that... Can be positive if done right. We do see that as... A key area to meet the end and business objectives. It's going to take some time. IDC, I think is the most bullish. They took like 80% of workloads. By 2023, we'll shift to containers. I believe that for newly created workloads. I think developers have got this in their hands and they understand the efficiencies for their own work as well as when this moves to production. This sort of DevSecOps model, kind of comes with containers if done right. There's a legacy that's going to be around a long time, helping customers understand those operating models and how to live with them both is going to be important over the next five to 10 years. >> You're talking about those drivers responsiveness, the innovation, et cetera. I live in an old house too and there's another component here which is that 80%, reasonable people could discuss that, because there's a risk component, right? I can modernize my house but I could jack up one into the house but it might mess up something that I just did. And so, CIO is obviously a risk-averse, they want to modernize but at the same time, they want to get from point a to point b with minimum disruption. To that end, I wonder if you could talk about what you saw during the pandemic. We're still in the pandemic but you had a reduction in budgets, virtually across the board, minus four, minus 5% in spending, had a shift toward work from home, whatever, VDI, laptops, rushed endpoint security, that whole thing. A lot of organizations try to do both. They said, "Hey, we're actually going to double down on digital transformation." We see this as a lean and opportunity. We got liquidity. How did COVID influence modernization initiatives in your client base? >> It impacted different clients in different ways. Some, as you mentioned, I almost view it as very Darwinian in the sense that those who had modernized and had capabilities, more deeply automated were ready for the transition that they had to go through so they were able to quickly shift to work from home. They were able to deliver on new client experiences, the analogy before in digital transformation, those pressures never went away, but COVID just brought new ones, and they expected all of those things but now they expected the restaurant... They expect the restaurant to bring that food to my door and do it in a safe manner. The challenges it brought on organizations were... In many cases, new. Some who were in a good position could accelerate work in place and leverage that. Others had a harder time, right? Those who couldn't translate technology to immediate returns, to kind of fuel that ongoing progress, had to make some hard decisions. I would say that's probably the single trend, projects are very carefully reviewed. There's that view of... "Will this help me now and into the future?" That's always present but it's present in a stronger manner than we would've have seen it for some time. In that envelope, can I come back to within those three technologies? Automation has certainly... We've seen a jump because of its nature. What we see in automation projects is... A faster time to implement and achieve some of the agility and flexibility that cloud provides but can take a longer timeframe if you haven't gotten far along in your cloud journey. Containers, even longer timeframe. So a lot of folks are looking at automation projects, particularly those that weren't as well positioned for sort of a quick turn and then taking that automation work and extending it into cloud and containers, as those initiatives progress. >> There are definitely some historical parallels and I could even go back to Y2K and look at all the application rationalization exercises that were going on back then. The technologies were different. You didn't have the modern cloud, containers have been around forever but not in the form of Kubernetes. The automation was scary back then but nonetheless, people were trying to use scripts or whatever they could do. But now, it's almost like an automation mandate, if you were in a digital business, you were out of business. So what are the... What are some of the learnings that you've seen from these modernization journeys that you're taking customers on that you might be able to share. >> Let me comment on automation first, I'll say it more generally. I think automation, you're right, we're not finding enterprises that are doing things manually. Everybody's gotten at least to kind of that scripting point. And then we see... That has its own journey. Then there's centralization and folks trusting the automation to enable self-service. That's sort of a... Kind of a tipping point to who is ready for COVID and who wasn't. Those who had hardened their automation to enable self-service generally could then call on that self service to meet the new demands that they were facing. The next stage and we see less folks there, we get into this sort of... Infrastructure as code. We talk about areas of intelligence in your automation. You talk about trust, not as many have progressed to where they trust their automation to... Proactively, maybe sometimes reactively respond to a situation or set of... You have to be very integrated at that point and you have to really believe in your automation. You then talk about integrating AI to sense, respond, make decisions and bring those back into your automation technologies. I'd say, that's still very future but folks are very intrigued by that. Your more general question, what's sort of some of the learnings. Really goes back to... Modernization needs to have a business school. That's become maybe more clear than it was a year and a half ago. In the absence of that, IT projects have always had some degree of failure. It's just the evidence of that failures, probably a little bit more poignant. Related to that, is there needs to be a strategic plan and in particular with modernization, it's easy to get caught up with the modern side. And Dave, you were kind of alluded to this before. If you're not thinking about the old, the connection to the legacy, that's a very common kind of failure signature. It's a marching ahead with the modernization, without a strategic plan and connect those things and an ability to kind of tackle a piece at a time. Sometimes budgets go away and that's a problem. Each step in the journey is really the third lesson. Needs to have incremental value. It needs to kind of pay back something to help fund the next stage of modernization. I'd say the last one and it's self-serving for us as a services company. It's helpful to have a partner on these journeys. In my particular area of focus, in a year and a half, we've had... 1,600 engagements. A lot of those engagements are people coming to us after making what they now view as mistakes. Some of the three areas I just mentioned. And being able to bring somebody in with experience with maybe some complimentary skills that can partner within an enterprise can be very helpful to avoid some of the pitfalls. >> I think, your point is right on. I've seen horror stories where people... Literally, we're going to go off the mainframe. They got decades old COBOL code that's working just fine and they literally risked their business trying to brute force migrate off and they never could... We're not going to freeze the code. It's just horror stories. But today's different, you can actually build an abstraction layer, leverage cloud services, and Kubernetes, and the like, use microservices to actually connect the old to the new. And that's the hardest part, again, old house analogies. I've done a lot of connecting the old to the new, that's the hardest part. You got to be really careful but today the technologies are enabling to do that and one of them is... Obviously, things like OpenShift. The definition of open, again, a little history here, it used to be... Unix was open and then Windows and then Linux, the LAMP stack. But really... That piece of your portfolio is a critical part to enable these types of moves. >> Absolutely. It's exciting that technologies are there and there's a path forward. And it's great to... Great to work with a partner, who's maybe, done that 10 or 15 times, or more and have them help guide you on that path. But the good news is there is... Enabling technologies to transform in a number of ways, depending on what the business objectives are for an enterprise. >> Cool. All right, Doug, we've got to go. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It's great to see you. >> Okay, same Dave. >> All right. >> Appreciate it. >> Keep it right there everybody. This is Dave Vellante. You're watching IBM Think 2021. The virtual edition covered on theCUBE. (bouncy music)