>>mhm >>Hello and welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo alto California, I'm john for a year host of the cube, we're here with a great guest Jt gear, Ceo and founder and ops Hot Startup. Jt Welcome to the cube conversation. >>Hey, that sound, thanks for having me. It sounds like we know each other, we used to run into each other at meat out. So yeah, >>it's fun to talk to you because I know you're, you know, scratching the devops it from the beginning before devops was devops before infrastructure of code was infrastructure as code. All that's played out. So it's really a great ride. I know you had a good time doing it a lot of action though. If you look at devops it's kind of like this new, I won't say devops two point because it kind of cliche but you're starting to see the mature ization of companies besides the early adopters and the people who are hardcore adopting and they realize this is amazing and then they? Re platform in the cloud and they go great, let's do more and next thing, you know, they have an operations issue and they got a really kind of stabilize and then also not break anything. So this is kind of the wheelhouse of what you guys are doing in ops reminds me of no ops, no operations, you know, we don't want to have a lot of extra stuff. This is a big thing. Take a but take them in to explain the company, you're what you guys stand for and what you're all about. >>Yeah, so you know, our main focus is more on the operation side, so, you know the reason why you move to cloud or the reason why you have devops practices, you want to go fast. Um but you know when you're building cloud infrastructure, you have to make trade offs right? You have to maybe some environment, maybe you have to optimize for S L A. And maybe another workload, you have to optimize for um you know, maybe costs, right? So what we're on a mission to do is to make sure that companies are able to make the right trade offs, right? We help companies to make sure all their workload, every single resource in the cloud is aligned with the business needs, you know, so we do a lot of cool things by like, you know, bringing accountability mapping and we're close to different genes. But yeah, the end goal is, can we make sure that every single resource on data Bs is aligned with the business needs >>and they're also adding stuff. Every reinvent zillion more services get announced. So a lot, a lot of stuff going on, I gotta ask you while I got you here, what is the definition of cloud apps these days, from your standpoint and why is it important? A lot of folks are looking at this and they want to have stable operations. They love the cloud really can't deny the cloud value at all. But cloud ops has become a big topic. What is cloud apps and why is it important. >>Right? I mean, first of all, Like you just mentioned, right? Like Amazon keeps on launching more services. It's over 200. So the environment is very complex, Right? And then mm complexity within the services is uh pretty uh you really need to be the main expert for example, know everything about do So, you know, our question to us is, let's say if you find a critical issue, uh let's say you want to uh you know, enable multi AZ on your RDS for example. Uh and it's critical because you know, you're running a uh high availability workloads on AWS. How do you follow up on that right to us. Operation is how do you build a cloud backlog? How do you prioritize, how do you come together as a team to actually remediate those issues? No one is tackling that job, everyone's surfaces like, hey, here's 1000 things that are wrong with your environment. No one is focused on like how do you go from these issues to prioritization to backlog to actually coming together as a team. You know, I've been fixing some of those issues. That's that's what operation means is >>I know it's totally hard because sometimes I don't even know what's going on. I gotta ask you why, why is it harder now? Why are people, I mean I get the impression that people like looking the other way? I hope it goes the problem kind of goes away. What are the challenges? What's the big blocker from getting at the root cause or trying to solve these problems? What's the big thing that's holding people back? >>Yeah, I mean, when I first got into, you know, I t you know, I was working in data center and every time we needed a server, you know, we have to ask for approvals, right? And you finally got a server, but nowadays anyone could provision resources. And normally you have different people within the team's provisioning resources and you can have hundreds of different teams who are provisioning resources. So the complexity uh and the speed that we are, you know, provisioning resources across multiple people, it just continues to go higher and higher. So that's why uh you know, on the surface it might look that hey, this, you know, maybe the biggest instance uh is, you know, aligned with the business needs, you know, looking at the changes, it's hard to know, are those aligned with the business? They're not? So that's that's that's where the complexity and player. >>So the question I get a lot from people we talk about devops and cloud, cloud apps or cloud management or whatever kind of buzz words out there, it kind of comes down to cloud apps and cloud management seems to be the category, people focus on. How is cloud ops different then? Say the traditional cloud management and what impact does it have for customers and why should they care and what do they need an option. >>Right. So one of the things we do uh and and we do think that cloud operation is sort of an evolution from cloud management. We make sure that Every single resource 1st, first of all blondes and workload. So and you know, workload could be a group of microservices uh and then uh you know every single workload has owners like define owners who are responsible for making sure they managed budget that they're responsible for security that normally doesn't exist. Right? Cloud is this black box, you know where multiple people are provisioning resources, you know, everyone tries to sort of build sort of a structure to kind of see like what are these resources for? What are these resources for as part of onboarding to end up? So what we do, we actually, you know, analyze all your metadata. We create like 56 workloads and then we say here is a bucket where there's there, this is totally unassigned, right? And then we actually walked them through assigning different roles and also we walk them through to kinda looking under this unallocated resources and assign resources for those as well. So once you're done, every single resource has clear definition, right? Is this a compliant? Uh you know hip hop workload, what are the run books, what is this for? John I don't know if he heard that before. Sometimes there are workloads running and how people don't know, I don't even know who is the owner, right? So after you're done with an office and after you're managing and uh, you know, uh, managing your workload on and off, you have full visibility and clear understanding of what are the. It's funny, it's >>funny you mentioned the workloads being kind of either not knowing the owners, but also we see people um, with the workloads sometimes it's like throwing a switch and leaving the hose on the water on. And next thing you know, they get the bill. They're like, oh my God, what happened? Why did I leave? What, what is this? So there's a lot of things that you could miss. This brings up the point you just said and what you said earlier aligning resources across the cloud uh and and having accountability. And then you, you mentioned at the top of this interview that aligning with the business needs. I find that fastest. I would like to take him in to explain because it sounds really hard. I get how you can align the resources and do some things, identify what's going on, accountability kind of map that that's, that's good tech. How does that, how do you get that to the alignment on the business side. >>Yeah. I mean we start by, first of all, like I said, you know, we use machine learning to play these workloads? And then we asked basic questions about the workload. You know, what is this workload for? Uh Do you need to meet with any kind of compliance is for this workload? Uh What is your S. O. A. For this workload? You know, depending on that. We we make recommendations. Uh So we kind of ask those questions and we also walk them through where they create roles. Like we asked who was responsible for creating budgets or managing security for this workload and guess what also the you know the bucket where resources are allocated for. We ask for you know, owners for that as well like in this bucket who's the owner for who's going to monitor the budget and things like that. So you know we asked, you know, we start by just asking the question, having teams complete that sort of information and also you know, why do you a little bit more information on how this aligns with the business needs? You know, >>talk about the complexity side of it. I love that conversation around the number of services. You said 200 services depending how you count what you call services in the thousands of so many different things uh knobs to turn on amazon uh web services. So why are people um focused on the complexity and the partnering side? Because you know, it's the clouds at E. P. I. Based system. So you're dealing with a lot of different diverse resources. So you have complexity and diversity. Can you talk me through how that works? Because that's that seems to be a tough beast to tame the difference between the complexity of services and also working with other people. >>Yeah for sure like this this normal to have um you know maybe thousands of lambda functions in their application. We're working with a customer where within last month there were nine million containers that launched and got terminated right there, pretty much leveraging, auto scaling and things like that. So these environments are like very complex. You know, there's a lot of moving pieces even, you know, depending on the type of services they're using. So again what we do, you know we when we look at tags and we look at other variables like environments and we look at who's provisioning resources, those resources and we try to group them together and that way there's accountability uh you know if the cost goes up for one workload were able to show that team like your cost is going up uh And also we can show uh unallocated bucket that hey within last week Your cost is you know, $4,000 higher in the unallocated bucket. Where would you like to move this these resources to just like an ongoing game. You >>know, you know jt I was talking with my friend jerry Chen is that Greylock partners is a V. C. Has been on the cube many times a couple of years ago. We're talking about how you can build a business within the cloud, in the shadows of the clouds, what he called it, but I called it more the enabling side and and that's happened now, you're seeing the massive growth. I'm also talking to some C X O C IOS or CSOs and they're like trying to figure out which companies that are evolving and growing to be to buy from, get to get the technology. Uh and they always say to me john I'm looking for game changing kind of impact. I'm looking for the efficiency and you know, enablement, the classic kind of criteria. So how would you guys position yourself to those buyers out there that might want to look at you guys as a solution and ups what game changing aspect of what you do is out there, how would you talk to that that C I O or C. So or buyer um out in the end the enterprise and the thieves ran his piece. What would you say to them? >>Yeah, I think the biggest uh advantage and I think right now it's a necessity, you hear these stories where, you know, people provision resources, they don't even know which project is it for. It's just very hard to govern the cloud environment, but I believe we're the only tool. Mhm where you want to compromise on the speed, right? The whole reason um cloud but they want to innovate faster. No one wants to follow that. Right? But I think what's important. We need to make sure everything is aligned with the business value. Uh, we allow people to do that. You know, we, we, we can both fast at the same time. You can have some sort of guard rails. So there are proper ownership. There's accountability. People are collaborating and people are also rightsizing terminating resources, they're not using. It's like, you know, I think if companies are looking for a tool that's gonna drive better accountability on how people build and collaborate on cloud, I think reply the best solution. >>So people are evolving with the cloud and you mentioned terminating services. That's a huge deal in cloud. Native things are being spun up and turned off all the time. So you need to have good law, You have a good visibility, observe ability is one of the hottest buzzwords out there. We see a zillion companies saying, hey, we're observe ability, which is to me is just monitoring stuff. They can sure you're tracking everything. So when you have all this and you start to operationalize this next gen, next level cloud scale, cost optimization and visibility is huge. Um, what is the, what is the secret sauce uh, for that you guys offer? Because the change management is a big 12 teams are changing too cost team accountability. All this is kind of, it's not just speeds and feeds, there's, it's kind of intersection of both. What's your take on that reaction to that? >>Yeah, I think it's the Delta. Right? So change management, What you're really looking for is not a, like a fire hose, you're looking for. What changed what the root cause who did it, what happened? Right. Because it's totally normal for someone to provision maybe thousands or even millions containers. But how many of those got shut down? What is the delta and uh, you know, if there is a, there is an anomaly, what is the root cause? Right? Uh, how we fix it. So you know the way we've changed managers, change management is a lot different. We really get to the root cause analysis and we really help companies to make, really show what changed and how they can take action to a media. But if there were issues, >>I want to put a little plug in for you guys. I noticed you guys have a really strong net promoter score. You have happy customers also get partners. A lot of enablement there. You kind of got a lot of things going on. Um, explain what you guys are all about. How did you get here? What's the day in the life of a customer that you're serving? Why then why are the scores so high? Um, take us through a use case of someone getting that value. >>Yeah. So I, I come from like a consulting background, john so you know, I was migrating companies to read the Bs when the institute was in beta and then I, you know, founded a consulting company over 100 employees. Really successful interview. S premier partner called in clouds. And so Enos was born there because because you know it was, it was born out a consulting company, there are a lot of other partners who are leveraging the tools to help their customers and it goes back to our point earlier, john like amazon has to wonder services, right? We are noticing customers are open to work with partners and uh you know with different partners that really helped them to make sure they're making the right decisions when they are building on cloud. So a lot of the partners, a lot of the consulting companies are leveraging uh and hopes to deliver value to their customers as far as uh you know how we actually operate. You know, we pay attention to uh you know what, what customers are looking for, what, where are the next sort of challenges uh you know, customers are facing in a cloud environment world like super obsessed, you know, like we're trying to figure out how do we make sure every single resource is aligned with the business value without slowing companies down so that really drives us, we're constantly welcome customers to stay true to the admission >>and that's the ethos of devops moving fast. The old quote Mark Zuckerberg used to have move fast, break stuff and then he revised it to move move fast and make it stable, which is essentially operational thing. Right, so you're starting to see that maturity, I noticed that you guys also have a really cool pricing model, very easy to get in and you have a high end too. So talk us through about how to engage with you guys, how do people get involved? Just click and just jump in there, buying software buying services, take a minute to explain how people can, can work with you. >>Yeah, it's just, it's just signing up on our site, you know, our pricing is tier model, uh you know, once you sign up, if you do need help with, you know, remediating high risk issues we can bring in partners, we have a strong partner ecosystem. Uh we could definitely help you do interviews to the right partners but it's as simple as just signing up and just taking me out. First thing I guess. >>Jt great chatting with you have been there from early days of devops, born in the field, getting, getting close to the customers and you mentioned ec two and beta, they just celebrate their 15th birthday and I remember one of my starts that didn't actually get off the off the blocks, they didn't even have custom domains at that time was still the long remember the long you are else >>everything was ephemeral like when you restart server, everything will go away a cool >>time. And I just remember saying to myself man, every entrepreneur is going to use this service who would ever go out and buy and host the server. So you were there from the beginning and it's been great to see the success. Thanks for coming on the cube >>all That's >>okay. Jt thanks so much as a cube conversation here in Palo alto. I'm john for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>mhm Yes. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual john for your host of the cube paul. Comey who's here is the president and Ceo of red hat cube alumni paul always great to have you on the leader of red hat now President and Ceo for a year I think about a year now we're looking at under your belt now part of IBM Great to see you. >>You too nice to see you again john. >>So we've talked many times on the Cuban now. It's kind of playing out in real time. The software world with open source has gone mainstream. The conversation was moved to the cloud. Okay. People move to the cloud. Cloud native emerges devil has been around for a while. But now the conversation is cloud for the enterprise that uh, the enterprises, it's a tough world. You gotta, it's complicated is a lot of legacies, a lot of value and you want the new stuff. This is what the conversation is now. It's shifted to I got cloud, it's hybrid. What's your reaction to that? >>Well, you know, it really is, as you say, it's complicated but it's evolving and really, really fast. I mean, you know, I think you remember we've been here a lot. You first remember first software is eating the world and open source software is eating the world and in every every company is becoming a software company. All true. But that evolution continues today with the proliferation of hybrid cloud environments that it encompasses everything from data centers to public cloud services to And even now we'll talk about two for far flung edge deployments. That's all now part of the cloud. I mean, this is all what makes up hybrid. I like to always say that Hybrid really is the new data centers but now see IOS and I thi leaders, they need to reconsider what their roles, what their role here is and the way we look at it as every C I O now needs to be a cloud operator because because Hybrid is what their environment is now today, that used to be all in their data center. So, so but one of the things that really makes a choice even more important and its leaders, they need to address address specific needs, um not only to the organization, but even as they change and evolve in this because it really is a dynamic environment, I mean think about it and just mentioned edge and how how important that is to see IOS, we weren't even talking about that two years ago, so, so it's not a single answer here, right? Um and and you know, and there as there wasn't a single answer when it was all in one building or in one data center, but now it's even it's even more complex. So, so we need to enable really a new wave of cloud operators here with technologies that can be deployed as cloud services as well as on premises. We'll talk more about this too, but and we'll talk about this at the summit. We talked about the summit. Cloud services become really important, especially managed services, for example, because, um because we're so complex, Hybrid brings so much power, but it is complex. You know, see I need help with this, they need help managing this now. And so that's really where a lot of our focus is today. >>It's interesting you say there's no single answer. I would agree with you because it's now you can actually do a lot more customization with cloud and Hybrid. I think there's a general sentiment and directionally correct answer uh in the industry is that hybrid is operating model right? And I think you guys are have a whole division of SRS google talks about this all the time and their cloud site reliability engineers. And I think you're seeing that in educational institutions which we'll talk about. But I think this idea of cloud scale as the new I. T. And you mentioned hybrids, the new data center. You know, I don't I don't want to offend my I. T. Friends out there but they're kind of all realizing it to that if they don't understand how to operate cloud scale they'll be irrelevant and they're and they understand that their jobs are not just provisioning storage, networking and servers. Those are now involved in a hybrid architecture. And by the way, there is no one recipe, it's dependent. Each enterprise can have its own set of architecture based on their workloads again. So I buy that no single answer, but there is hybrid and I think it's pretty well understood. I mean, do you agree with that? >>I absolutely agree with that. But let's take a look at this, unpack it a little bit and take a look at the building blocks a bit. Right. Um, you know, we talked about open sources, what's driving all of this now and and everything we're talking about here is built in and around Lennox and it was only possible because Lennox was so open, so available and became so powerful, that's now been the platform that all this new innovation is built around. I mean, I oftentimes saying it's true the cloud just wouldn't be here had Lennox not only made its way in the open source development environment, but made its way into the enterprise to enable it to companies like us that make it enterprise ready, secure etcetera. So I think that's really an important thing to understand here. So when you talk about skills that the Ceos need certainly SRE skills, operation skills etcetera, but they also need Lennox skills and even open source skills. So so I think I think that's important, everything that's coming down the road and in in this space in um in his open source based and built in and around Lennox things like ai quantum computing, autonomous vehicles um IOT in and out to the edge all built on a foundation of Lennox and open source. So we see it in the enterprise everywhere now. I mean a survey where you know we did a survey out there and looking at the survey of C I O s out there, open is predominant out there, Lennox is predominant out there in hybrid is predominant and growing in a pretty big clip every year. >>You know, paul, I want to get your reaction to something because this may be kind of a dot connecting moment for me because I want to get your thoughts on this because it's a it's a pattern I'm seeing emerging now multiple times and usually I thought this was kind of a one off, but I'm starting to see it. So I'm going to get your thoughts on this. You guys have been super successful with open source in the enterprise, Super successful over decades, building a community and an ecosystem now with open source with with cloud Native, specifically we're seeing end users participating more in the, in the contribution starts out with the hyper scale ear's but now you're seeing kind of, I would call general purpose mainstream enterprises contributing projects, not necessarily their expertise, but they've been participating in taking the goodness of open source and bringing that into the into the enterprise. And I'll see you relying on you guys as well. But now I'm starting to see the pattern where people are relying on you to bring your community to them and they merge their communities with you guys and being kind of a steward there, is that a pattern? Do you see that evolving? Because we've heard that on multiple interviews on the cube where we've heard end users say we love the red hat ecosystem and and that seems to be more and more about they want to be building their ecosystem. So you did it for yourselves, you did it for the industry. Now, enterprises want this service is this is this is a pattern. And what's your reaction to that? >>It actually is a pattern because it's actually one of the reasons why innovation is moving so quickly right now. As I just said, you know, you know, this whole area here in infrastructure and cloud and development environments, Hybrid included. It's all built in and around, it's all built in and around Lennox. And in the past, what's happening and driven by open source development in the past? What happened? Look at the old fashioned way, right, where a company like us would be in a company, software company, not like us, but any old software company would be, you know, in their stovepipe, talking to their customers, getting their requirements and then bringing those requirements back from the customer base and then trying to work that into their products over time, get that back out to the customer to test it and try it, see it as it works. That's probably a five year, there's probably a five year journey, uh, for big, big requirements for big change requirements you look at now with, with actually end users now participating in upstream development, they're building their requirements into that upstream, which is our development environment. And actually that's what feeds our products. And so we've cut out the middleman, if you will completely in there now when we're building those requirements into our future future, R and D work in the upstream and then we bring that down into a product back into their enterprise for them to use in production. So it cuts out years of time for that innovation to get from concept to building to product, rising to production. And, and I think, you know, john, that's one of the big reasons why that customer base participating is one of the big reason why we're seeing innovation move like we've never seen it before in the enterprise, which in the old days that was a stodgy place where they didn't want to move very quickly. >>Yeah. And the values there, I mean I think it's clear what the pandemic we get to this towards the the last last talking track here. But with the pandemic I think it's pretty clear what the value is and the speed to capture opportunities and growth. I think enterprises are realizing that I think the power of the ecosystem is a modern error kind of phenomenon that is now kind of showing its its value and clearly in the market. And I think people who harness communities and ecosystems not try to fork them but connect them and and intersect them and kind of played well together. So again this is an open source concept kind of re imagined so we'll keep an eye on that. So, um, I want to get to your comment in the kino you mentioned at the top here every C I. O. It has to be a cloud operator. You know, that reminds me of all the start ups and all the positioning statements. Every company needs to be a software company. Every company needs to be a media company. Every company needs to be a cloud operator. So I love that. What does it mean? Because I could say, hey paul, I have a cloud, I'm working on amazon Or is that it? Or wait a minute as yours got, I got 365 over here and I'm using big query over here. I might use oracle over here. I mean all these multi cloud conversations. So it's confusing. >>Yeah. Tell me what, you know, if you look at, if you look at it, we were really one of the first ones to really build around this hybrid, this hybrid concept. And the reason why we were one of the first ones is because what amazon hit the world 12 or 13 years ago or something like that, They were the first major cloud and at the time that the narrative was that, you know, every application was going to move to the cloud tomorrow. Right well, because as I said earlier, everything is built in and in and around open source. And legs were very involved with our customers as they tried to move those first applications to the cloud. So certainly is a lot of value and moving to the cloud. But our customers quickly realized with us helping them, quickly realized that you know what, this is great. But not every application suited for the cloud, um for any cloud, but also I may want to run multiple clouds because another cloud provider over here might have a better service than this particular service over here, vice versa. And so we were in the middle of that. So one of the decisions we made seven or eight years ago, everything we did in that last seven or eight years around the portfolio, whether it was building products, m and A, requiring new companies etcetera, was built around that hybrid portfolio. What that means is a common platform that sits both on premise and bare metal machines. Virtual machines, private clouds on premise multiple clouds across out in the enterprise, that common platform so that developers, operators and the security people have that common platform to build with because just like in Lenox, even though they are all derived from open source upstream, they're all different, they all make different choices and how they're going to configure themselves. So, so that's important. So now we're out there with these multiple clouds. One of our surveys we see our Ceo is telling us now that You're using on the average I think six Clouds today and they expect that to go 8-10 over the next 3-5 years. So how are they going to manage that? How are they going to secure that? How are their operations people going to operate with that? That's all the things that we've been working on over the last number of years. So from that common platform, which is sort of the basis which is open shift to underneath it, which is the Linux operating system, which is well that spans all those footprints that I talked about. And then also you look at one of the latest trends is as well as manage services because what customers are now telling us is okay I got this environment that this hybrid is now my data center. It means I have to worry about these apps all in different footprints. Um I want to the platform to act like a cloud in some cases I don't want to I don't want to even manage it. I want you to manage it for me because for many reasons I want great up time. I might not have the right skill sets in my organization and so I want you to manage it. And so that's where we develop managed services and that's where we have set a large group today large SRE group that's providing those managed services no matter where our platform runs for our customers. Also, what I talked about in my keynote today is that to support that thought process is that we're doing a lot of research in this and so, you know, in a typical computer science research world, you know, of the past, you might really be into the into the real computer science of Research. We with the consortium around mass Open cloud with Boston University, MIT, Harvard Northeastern with this consortium. We're running mass Open cloud on all Red Hat with the collaboration of these universities and we're really focusing on the sorry aspect of it. What do we need to manage it? What do we need around automation to manage it? What do we need around ai to manage it? What do we need for tools to manage it? And and that's really goes down to what I fully briefly said in the beginning, is that every C I O N I T uh executive now has to be their own cloud operator because they are effectively stitching all these disparate clouds together. So that's where a big part of our focus takes us all the way from, You know, upstream development to product to the research we're doing for the next 3-5 plus years. >>You know, I gotta say the hybrid cloud is a new data center which is implying I T in the cloud operators with C X O S and C IOS is interesting because it's validated by Mckinsey's recent report that came out that said there's a trillion dollars of untapped value in one retrofitting existing infrastructure and operations and to net new operate use cases that the cloud enables. So there's clearly not two categories of value proposition that businesses are facing. One is, you know, kind of take care of the existing and then also bring in the new that cloud enables. So, you know, I think that's really key and that will drive the business leaders to foresight, if you will to be agile and adaptive to that. So so totally agree on that. I love this open cloud initiative, you mentioned the mass open cloud which I know is kind of like this beanpot for techies, um people who know what that means, uh it's in the boston area these institutions um this is gonna be a training and an opportunity to train the next generation and if you take it to the next level cybersecurity is also in this kind of net new novelty, interdisciplinary components. So you got engineering which is like devops engineering and then Systems Engineering and Computer Science intersecting together with kind of this data discipline. So it hits cybersecurity which is a board level conversation, it hits the new business model opportunities which is a driver, this is new, this is there's no pre existing curriculum. What how do you explain that to heads of the departments and the deans of these institutions saying, you know, it's an engineering thing. No, it's computer science thing. No, it's a it's a business school thing with data science. What's your what's your conversation with folks in the industry when you say this is a different thing? >>Uh you know, the university, you know, the university is getting, it was actually one of the one of the first things this is you know what you'll see. You know, I talked to uh dr bob Brown from President bu earlier in an interview and and this is what we imagined with them early on and even they brought those disciplines together now in in in what they call a harry institute, where to bring data, computer science engineering as you say. And now even operations, it's almost like, you know, systems engineering on steroids, it's a really big spanning system. And so so the universities are starting understand that's why these universities in the consortium, that's why we're working here. But also, you know, the industry's kind of learning it the hard way because now that they get some of their developers starting to move some of their application developments out into one, maybe two clouds and having the now they have to figure out how they're going to do all those things that we talked about, develop, secure operated. So they're they're learning the hard way that this is the new discipline because that's reality. I also think that, you know, as I said, like anything in tech, we always say this is going to happen tomorrow. I also think, like I said, when when cloud first came came out, everybody saying, I'm moving every app to the cloud tomorrow. We even had customers that bought into that said we're moving going full board but they realized once they get into it it wasn't practical. Don't take me wrong. Cloud brings a ton of value here but from a practical perspective it's going to be some apps and across many clouds and and so now they're having to deal with the I. T. Execs and the C. I. Was having to deal with it. So they're learning really fast because of the reality that they have to deal with. Now having said all that to it also brings up why managed services you're seeing so popular right now because as that's moving so fast they just don't have the skills necessary in many cases to really operate and run in this in this type of environment. It brings so much power but the skills aren't necessarily there in the industry. So that now you see the connection between the industry where we sit and even the university now looking at this whole big problem as as you put said, john, actually a new discipline, >>I think, I think, and I think one final leg of a three legged stool is at the business schools because when you think about systems programming, you mentioned that and you know, I love to go back in history and look at the history of operating systems. And you know, paul, we've talked us in the past and you guys know a lot about operating systems from a technology standpoint, it's not just about a productivity suite for a user or a department with the system, it's a company that needs to be programmed. So when people want to globally operate their business, that software defined this isn't now and this is now happening, right? So this the new leaders in these companies that want to run these global companies that scale operate them, just like operating the business not necessary. Operating a tech or shiny new toy, have to build the operating system for the business. To me, I think that's where I see IBM looking at cloud differently and saying, hey, this is an operating system under the covers for the business. The applications are multi fold from, you know, an application for productivity to an edge device, industrial or consumer user work at home. I mean it's a plethora of applications. What's your reaction to that? And you you see the same thing? >>I mean frankly, I think this is an area that a lot of the infrastructure players missed in the past. And I think I think this is what IBM saw with with bringing us in as well. It's all about the application. You know, I said earlier that, you know, we said every every company was a software company is true. And so that means the companies are running their businesses on these applications. So it's all about the app and I think a lot of infrastructure companies miss that. And and so with Hybrid now you have that ability to run the app wherever makes the most sense for for a whole host of reasons. And so now, but now comes the complexity of all of that. I think, I think IBM with bringing us in saw that that Hybrid was maybe as big, if not a bigger opportunity than cloud itself because of of the complexity it's going to bring, the power is going to bring. But also the complexity is gonna bring. I see that's why, you see Arvind, I sort of doubling down the entire IBM company on on hybrid services that are that are going to be really important here, that they provide these applications on top that are going to be really important, but that have to be architected in such a way that they can run in a hybrid environment. And finally there's all the infrastructure and tools and development pieces that we bring to the table. So, So yeah, I think I think are really, really understood that as they made the decision to bring redheaded, >>I talked to a center all the time and they also have this kind of concept of re factoring and reprogramming your business. Uh, it's not, it's a holistic view. This is kind of what's happening. So my final question for you is as as that becomes software enabled and programmed if you will with applications the business with many different subsystems in there. Um a lot of companies now looking at the light at the end of the tunnel with the pandemic and they're seeing vaccines coming out. Some say vaccines will be pretty much everywhere, everyone over 12 by the fall. So we're back to real life. There's gonna be a pullback of some projects on doubling down on others. As you as you mentioned, what are we doing? We're starting to see hybrid as companies come out of the pandemic, they're all jockeying to make sure that they have either done their work to re factor or reposition, reprogrammed their business and be set up for net new opportunities. >>What >>do you see as a growth model or growth opportunities for companies? You want to come out with a growth strategy out of the gate of the pandemic. What's your thoughts? >>Well, I mean, I think you have to plan for companies have to plan for your workforce to be anywhere, but in order to be anywhere in and to be productive, you need you need services like we're on right now for example, but you need the infrastructure to be able to do that. You need you need a way for your customers if you buy the fact that every company is a software company, you're running a business through their applications either way for your customers to be able to interact with you anywhere from where they are anywhere in a real time way. And so I think that's why from our perspective, things like that we're pushing a lot on the edge. Now, that's why you're seeing the hybrid cloud moved all the way out into the edge and you can see it in every vertical, you know, in the telco space. The edge means you gotta do, you have data and compute that needs to be done on the set on the cell tower in the manufacturing world. You have the state and compute that needs to be done on the factory floor, in the retail vertical. We see the edge really being significant in all these verticals, but but that edge is now extends that hybrid data center that we've been talking so much about. So even though you have all these edge devices way out there on the edge, it's a critical part of the business. So you have to have, your developers need need to be able to develop for it, you need to secure it, you need to and you need to operate it and manage it. So now, you know, in a very short period of time, hybrids taken on another dimension, bringing you out to all these points on the edge which is the same but slightly different in every vertical. Now comes complexity and that's why automation is so important because with that power comes complexity but it's going to take automation to keep it all running, >>paul. Great insight. Thanks for coming on the cube. Open innovation out in the open with with you guys again continue. And the focus of the evolution of software and the cloud with enterprise I. T. Clearly a lot of innovation and your contribution to academia and the mass open cloud and all the open cloud initiatives, phenomenal. The world's going. Open source and continues and continues. Doesn't stop. The operating system of businesses is coming and you guys are well positioned. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks again john. Always a pleasure. >>Okay paul, Cormier, President Ceo of Red Hat here on the Cuban, john for your host. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm mm.