>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with co-host this week is John Troyer. I'm happy to welcome to the program, first time guest. It's Anne Bertucio, who is the Kata Containers Community Manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, it's our pleasure and the containers has been a discussion we've been having for a few years now. I remember when we were last year in Vancouver, three years ago that the joke was it was Docker, Docker, Docker year. Tell us a little bit first your role, how long you've been with the foundation, and what you're covering there. >> Absolutely, I've been with the foundation for going on three years at this point. The Kata Containers Project we announced in December. It's come up and come in there as a community manager helping them figure out since December to the launch now, in less than six months we had to figure out how are we going to work together. How are we going to merge two code bases and we have to create a new open source project and new community. So leading that has been a big part of my work. >> So there's a whole track on Containers now. Give us a little bit of flavor for our audience that couldn't be sitting in the keynote and attend all the sessions. What were they missing? >> I think the major theme was security. Mia, she's the PM of security at Google. She opened it up saying containers don't contain. And I almost wished we'd been on a game show. Like containers don't contain. That was the theme of the day and we talked about where did Kata come from? Kata came from how do we answer that question. I think people got so excited about performance and portability about containers. We forgot about security a little bit and now we're seeing some of the ramifications and it's time to make this the year of security. >> So you talk about bringing two code basis together. Can you talk a little bit about what some of the ingredients are here to get to our dish that we finally call Kata Containers Projects? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we have ren-V from Hyper and we had Clear Containers from Intel. And they both looked at things a little differently like Hyper has a fracty implementation that was really critical to their customers. Clear Containers are becoming a little bit from runC Vert containers. And what we arrive at for 1.0 is the OCI compatible runtime is going to put a lightweight VM around your container, and we're thrilled to look beyond 1.0 and to things like supporting hardware accelerators. >> So it may be just to raise it up one level before we go on. How do containers in some sense, let's repeat maybe what you said, see if I get it right. >> Anne: Yeah. >> It's wrapping a container and a lightweight VM. And that gives us the isolation and security that's traditionally associated with a virtual machine with all the APIs and flexibility and performance, and all the other goodness of a container. One container in one VM is the first implementation. >> Yeah, I think the easy way to think about, you're talking about Docker Docker Docker. So in Kata, really instead of using runC as your runtime, we would just say Kata runtime, and now we have our Docker containers but they're wrapped in these light weight VMs each with their own kernel. >> I think back to the early days when we were trying to figure out what these whole containers were and was that the death of virtualization? It was like VMs, gosh they take minutes to spin up, and container is super fast. Security, oh VMs yeah, there's security there but we need to move fast, fast, fast. So explain how this helps bring together the peanut butter and chocolate, if we will? >> Absolutely, oh I love peanut butter and chocolate but that's really what it is. Like you were saying virtualization, yes. Super secure, slow. I think I have a clip art chart with a sad turtle on it. A little bit slower. The container is super fast, we're getting a little nervous about security. I think we maybe see groups and name spaces are good, but people who are enterprise environments. They've been putting full blown VMs around their containers 'cause they were saying well it's not enough. And I need two isolation boundaries, not just one. >> Right, in terms of some of the use cases then. I imagine multitenancy would be one and then perhaps even, I think some of the newest trend defense in depth of even an individual app putting different zones in different components or different risk zones in their own containers, their own VMs. Even inside an individual app just making sure that the different components can only talk to each other in ways that they're suppose to. >> Absolutely, I think it's anytime where you're running untrusted code, or you have questions about what's going on there or you just want a heightened security. Kata is an easy used case then. >> Sure, I guess my VMware call it microsegmentation would be their buzz word on it. >> Oh I got to think about what mine is going to be. >> Or we can all use the same words, it's good. >> So Anne, Intel Clear Containers was a piece of this. Of course Intel partners with everyone there. Give us a little bit also the ecosystem and the team that makes this up. Is this, people out there will be like, oh, well but Docker has their solution and VMware has their solution. How does this fit into the broader ecosystem? >> Our team is incredibly diverse. I've just been thrilled with 1.0. We had 40 contributors from a good diversity of companies. Our architecture committee, it's Google, it's Huawei, Hyper, Intel and Microsoft and I think we've, I was saying in the other note the other day. I was on a call for a architecture committee and we had AMD, ARM and Intel all talking about the same solution. So it's the beauty of open source that we've brought all of these groups together. >> One of the things that also struck us especially if we've been here. The diversity of the show is always really good. The main keynote, it's not oh, did they brought up some people of diversities. Oh no, these are the project leads and therefore they're doing this. Can you touch on some of the diversity and activities at the show itself? >> In terms of technologies, we're looking at or? >> No, I just, so there is, I'm just saying you talked about the community, the diversity of companies as well, the diversity of people. So we've got lots of the women inclusion. >> Oh sure. >> Things like that. >> Yeah, I know we had the executive producer of Chasing Grace was here and I know she's been, Jennifer Clower, is that correct? >> Stu: Yes, Jennifer Clower. We actually interviewed her last week at a different show. >> Oh fantastic. Yeah her document has been incredibly well received. I know she's making the rounds to get the word out there about what's going on with Women in Tech. And we were more than thrilled to host her and have her here and be apart of conversation. >> Clear Community is a big part of OpenStack, the OpenStack Summit and care of the OpenStack Foundation. In terms of Kata Containers, you work for the OpenStack Foundation. Is Kata officially then part of the OpenStack or does that have a different governance model? >> That's a great question. This is an area of confusion because it's the first time the foundation is broken out and there's the OpenStack Project, and there's Kata Containers the Project, but we both live at the OpenStack Foundation. >> John: Okay. >> I think the guiding principles though, and it's really helped us over the last four months is that the OSF, OpenStack Foundation, we believe in open source, open design, open development and open community. And Kata, we were like that's a great home. We believe in that as well. >> Any customers that are yet talking about their early usage of Kata that you can share? >> I think we have a lot of customers from runV and Clear Containers and Kata is going to be their next path forward. So with 1.0 out yesterday, I'm excited to see. We should see some upgrades real soon here. >> What's the path for them to get from where they are to the 1.0? Is that pretty straightforward? >> It should be, yeah, we think so. And they have their support from Intel and from Hyper to help them out with that as well. >> Stu: Okay. >> I was going to ask is Kata Containers, is it integrated in an API or is OpenStack necessary for it or is it independent of, from an infrastructure perspective, OpenStack, the stack? >> Yeah, it's completely independent, but it's also compatible. >> John: Okay. >> You can run on Azure, Google, OpenStack, agnostic of the infrastructure underneath it. >> John: Great. >> Anne, want to give you a final word. Takeaways from the show that you'd want people to have. >> Absolutely, I think the final word is containers are fantastic, it's probably time to take a look at your container architecture. Think about it from a security perspective, and I would encourage everyone to go check out Kata Containers and see if that's the solution for them. >> Anne Bertucio, really appreciate you joining and sharing with us everything happening. It can work with or without the OpenStack Containers. Absolutely a big trend, but security absolutely top of mind from everyone we've talked to. If it's not top of mind of a company, I'm always a little bit worried about them. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (uptempo techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, with my cohost John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, fresh off the container keynote, Chris Hodge, who's the senior strategic program manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> Alright, so short trip for you, then John's coming from the Bay Area, I'm coming from the east coast. You're coming up from Portland, which is where it was one of the attendees at the Portland OpenStack Summit, they said, "OpenStack has arrived, theCUBE's there." So, shout out to John Furrier and the team who were there early. I've been to all the North America ones since. You've been coming here for quite a while and it's now your job. >> I've been to every OpenStack Summit since then. And to the San Francisco Summit prior to that, so it was, yeah, I've been a regular. >> Okay so for those people that might not know, what's a Foundation member do these days? Other than, you know, you're working on some of the tech, you're giving keynotes, you know, what's a day in the life? >> Yeah, I mean, I mean for me, I feel like I'm really lucky because the OpenStack Foundation, you know, has you know, kind of given me a lot of freedom to go interact with other communities and that's been one of my primary tasks, to go out and work with adjacent communities and really work with them to build integrations between OpenStack and right now, particularly, Kubernetes and the other applications that are being hosted by the CNCF. >> Yeah, so I remember, and I've mentioned it a few times this week, three years ago we were sitting in the other side of the convention center, with theCUBE and it was Docker, Docker, Docker. The container sessions were overflowing and then a year later it was, you know, oh my gosh, Kubernetes. >> Chris: Yeah. (chuckles) >> This wave of, does one overtake the other, how do they fit together, and you know, in the keynotes yesterday and I'm sure your keynote today, talked a lot a bit about you know, the various ways that things fit together, because with open source communities in general and tech overall, it's never binary, it's always, it depends, and there's five different ways you could put things together depending on your needs. So, what are you seeing? >> I mean it's almost, yeah, I mean saying that it's one or the other and that one has to win and the other has to lose is actually kind of, it's kind of silly, because when we talk about Kubernetes and we talk about Docker, we're generally talking about applications. And, you know, and, with Kubernetes, when you're very focused on the applications you want to have existing infrastructure in place. I mean, this is what it's all about. People talk about, "I'm going to run my Kubernetes application "on the cloud, and the cloud has infrastructure." Well, OpenStack is infrastructure. And in fact, it is open source, it's an open source cloud. And so, so for me it feels like it's a very natural match, because you have your open application delivery system and then it integrates incredibly well with an open source cloud and so whether you're looking for a public cloud running on OpenStack or you're hosting a private cloud, you know, to me it's a very natural pairing to say that you have an OpenStack cloud, you have a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes and that the two work together. >> I think this year that that became a lot clearer, both in the keynotes and some of the sessions. The general conversation we've had with folks about the role of Kubernetes or an orchestration or the cloud layer, the application layer, the application deployment layer say, and the infrastructure somebody's got to manage the compute the network storage down here. At least, in this architectural diagram with my hands but, you can also, a couple of demos here showed deploying Kubernetes on bare metal alongside OpenStack, with that as the provider. Can you talk a little bit about that architectural pattern? It makes sense, I think, but then, you know, it's a apparent contradiction, wait a minute so now the Kubernetes is on the bare metal? So talk about that a little bit. >> So, I think, I think one of the ways you can think about resolving the contradiction is OpenStack is a bunch of applications. When you go and you install OpenStack we have all of these microsurfaces that are, some are user facing and some are controlling the architecture underneath. But they're applications and Kubernetes is well-suited for application delivery. So, say that you're starting with bare metal. You're starting with a bare metal cloud. Maybe managed by OpenStack, so you have OpenStack there at the bottom with Ironic, and you're managing your bare metal. You could easily install Kubernetes on that and that would be at your infrastructure layer, so this isn't Kubernetes that you're giving to your users, it's not Kubernetes that you're, you know, making world facing, this is internally for your organization for managing your infrastructure. But, you want OpenStack to provide that cloud infrastructure to all of your users. And since OpenStack is a big application with a lot of moving parts, Kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful tool, or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that and then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for, you know, for the users within your organization, or you could be running a public cloud and providing those services for other people. And then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting Kubernetes applications on, and so the layers kind of interleave with one another. But even if you're not interested in that. Let's say you're running Kubernetes as bare metal and you're just, you want to have Kubernetes here providing some things. There's still things that OpenStack provides that you may already have existing in your infrastructure. >> Kubernetes kind of wants, it wants to access some storage. >> It wants to consume storage for example, and so we have OpenStack Cinder, which right now it supports you know, somewhere between, you know over 70 storage drivers, like these drivers exist and the nice thing about it is... You have one API to access this and we have two drivers within that, two Cinder drivers, you can either choose the, the flex volume storage or the container storage interface, the CSI storage interface. And Cinder just provides that for you. And that means if you have mixed storage within your data center, you put it all behind a Cinder API and you have one interface to your Kubernetes. >> So Chris, I believe that's one of the pieces of I believe it's called the Cloud Provider OpenStack. You talked about in the keynote. Maybe walk us through with that. >> Cloud Provider OpenStack is a project that is hosted within the, within the Kubernetes community. And it's... The owner of that code is the SIG OpenStack community inside of Kubernetes. I'm one of the three leads, one of the three SIG leads of that group and, that code does a number of things. The first is there's a cloud manager interface that is a consistent interface for Kubernetes to access infrastructure information in clouds. So information about a node, when a node joins a system, Kubernetes will know about it. Ways to attach storage, ways to provision load balancers. The cloud manager interface allows Kubernetes to do this on any cloud, whether it be Azure or GCE or Amazon. Also OpenStack. Cloud Provider OpenStack is the specific code that allows us to do that, and in fact we were, OpenStack was one of the first providers that existed in upstream Kubernetes you know, so it's kind of, we've been there since the very beginning, like this has been a, you know, an effort that's happened from the beginning. >> Somewhat non-ironically, right? A lot of that you've talked about, the OpenStack Foundation and this OpenStack Summit, a lot of the things talked about here are not OpenStack per se, the components, they are containers, there's the OpenDev Conference here, colocated. Is there confusion, there doesn't, I'm getting it straight in my head, Is there, was there, did you sense any confusion of folks here or is that, if you're in it you understand what's going on and why all these different threads are flowing together in kind of an open infrastructure conversation. It seems like the community gets it and understand it and is broadened because of it. >> Yeah, I mean, to me I've seen a tremendous shift over the last year in the general understanding of the community of the role all of these different applications play. And I think it's really, it's actually a testament to the success of all of these projects, in particular, we're building open APIs, we're building predictable behavior, and once you have that, and you have many people, many different organizations that are able to provide that, they're all able to communicate with one another and leverage the strengths of the other projects. >> All of a sudden, a standard interface, low and behold, right? A thousand flowers bloom on top. >> You know, it essentially allows you to build new things on top of that, new more interesting things. >> Alright, Chris, any interesting customer stories out of the keynote that we should share with the audience? >> I mean, there are so many fantastic stories that you can talk about, I mean, of course we saw the CERN keynote, where they're running managed Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. They have over 250 Kubernetes clusters doing research that are managed by OpenStack Magnum. I mean that's just, to me that's just tremendous. That this is being used in production, it's being used in science, and it's not just across one cloud, it's across many clouds and, You know, we also have AT&T, which has been working very hard on combining OpenStack and Kubernetes to manage their next generation of, of teleco infrastructure. And so, they've been big drivers along with SK Telecom on using Kubernetes as an infrastructure layer and then putting OpenStack on top of that, and then delivering applications with that. And so those are, you know we, the OpenStack Foundation just published on Monday a new white paper about OpenStack, how OpenStack works with containers and these are just a couple of the case studies that we actually have listed in that white paper. >> Chris, you're at the interface between OpenStack, which has become more mature and more stable, and containers, which, although it is maturing is still a little bit, is moving fast, right? Containers and Kubernetes both, a lot of development. Every summit, a lot of new projects, lot of new ways of installing, lot of new components, lot of new snaps. All sorts of things. What are you looking forward to now over the next year in terms of container maturity and how that's going to help us? >> So... People are talking so much now about security with containers and this is another really exciting thing that's coming out of our work because, you know, during one of the container keynotes, one of the things that was kind of driven home was containers don't contain. But, we're actually, at the OpenStack Foundation, we're kind of taking that on, and we, and my colleague Anne Bertucio has been leading a project, you know, has been community manager for a product called Kata Containers, which is, you know, you could almost call it containers that do contain. So I think that this is going to be really exciting in the next year as we talk more and more about we're building more generic interfaces and allowing all sorts of new approaches to solving complex problems, be it in security, be it in performance, be it in logging and monitoring. And so, I think, so the tools that are coming out of this and you know, creating these abstractions and how people are creatively innovating on top of those is pretty exciting. >> The last thing I'm hoping you can help connect the dots for us on is, when we talk Kubernetes, we're talking about multi-cloud. One of the big problems about Kubernetes, you know, came out of Google from you know, if you just say, "Why would Google do this?" It's like, well, there's that one really big cloud out there and if I don't have some portability and be able to move things, that one cloud might just continue to dominate. So, help connect OpenStack to how it lives in this multi-cloud world. Kubernetes is a piece of that, but you know, maybe, would love your viewpoint. >> Yeah, so. This is happening on so many levels. We see lots of large organizations who want to take back control of the cost of cloud and the cost of their cloud infrastructure and so they're starting to pull away from the big public clouds and invest more in private infrastructure. We see this with companies like eBay, we see it with companies like AT&T and Walmart, where they're investing heavily in OpenStack clouds. So that they have more control over the cost and how their applications are delivered. But you're also seeing this in a lot of... Like especially municipalities outside of the United States, you know, different governments that have data restrictions, restrictions on where data lives and how it's accessed, and we're seeing more governments and more businesses overseas that are turning to OpenStack as a way to have cloud infrastructure that is on their home soil, that you know, kind of meets the requirements that are necessary, you know that are necessary for them. And then kind of the third aspect of all of this is sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have lots of availability across, you know, many clouds. And you can have a private cloud, but possibly, in order to serve your customers, you might need public cloud resources, and federation across, across this, both in OpenStack and Kubernetes is improving at such an incredible pace that it becomes very easy to say that I have two, three, four, five clouds, but we're able to, we're able to combine them all and make them all look like one. >> Alright, well Chris Hodge, we really appreciate the updates on OpenStack and Kubernetes in all the various permutations. >> Yeah, it was great talking about it. This is, I mean this is the work that I love and I'm excited about, and this is, you know, I'm looking forward to it, I have fun with it and I keep looking forward to everything that's coming. >> Awesome, well we love to be able to share these stories, the technologists, the customers and everything going on in the industry. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (tech music)