(bright upbeat music) >> Hi well, this is Dave Vellante. We're digging deeper into the world of database. You know, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat and different vendors take different approaches and we're reaching out to the technologists to get their perspective on the major trends that they're seeing in the market, 'cause we want to understand the different ways in which you can solve problems. So look, if you have thoughts and the technical chops on this topic, I'd love to interview you. Just ping me at at DVellante, on Twitter, a lot of ways to get ahold of me. Anyway, we recently spoke with Andrew Mendelsohn, who is Oracle's EVP and he's responsible for database server technologies. And we talked a lot about Oracle's ADW, Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we looked at the cloud database strategy that Oracle is taking and the company's plans and how they're different maybe from other solutions in the marketplace, but I wanted to dig deeper. And so today we have two members of Mendelsohn's team on The Cube, and we're going to probe a little bit. George Lumpkin, is the Vice President of Autonomous Data Warehouse. And Neil Mendelson is the VP of Modern Data Warehouse, that business for Oracle. They're both 20-year veterans of Oracle. When I reached out to Steve Savannah, who's a colleague of mine for many years, he's always telling me how great Oracle is relative to the competition. So I said, okay, come on The Cube and talk about this, give me your best people. And he said, whatever these two don't know about cloud data warehouse, it isn't worth knowing anyway. So with that said gentlemen, welcome to The Cube. Thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Hey, glad to be here. >> So George, let's start with you. And maybe we could recap for some of the viewers who might not be familiar with the interview that I did with Andy. In your words, what exactly is an Autonomous Data Warehouse? Is this cloud native? Is it an Oracle buzzword? What is it? >> Well, I mean, Autonomous Data Warehouse is Oracle's cloud data warehouse. It's a service that built to allow business users to get more value from their data. That's what the cloud data warehouse market is. Autonomous Data Warehouse is absolutely cloud native. This is a huge misconception that people might have when they first sort of hear about something, this service because they think this is a Oracle database, right? Oracle makes databases. This is the same old database I knew from 10 years ago. And that's absolutely not true. We built a cloud native service or data warehousing built it with cloud features. You know, if your understanding of the cloud data warehouse market is based upon how you thought things look 10 years ago, like Snowflake wouldn't have even existed, right? You can't base your understanding of Oracle based upon that. We have a modern service that's highly elastic, provides cloud capabilities like online patching and it's fully autonomous. It's really built the business users so they don't need to worry about administering their database. >> So I want to come back and actually ask you some questions about that, but let me follow up and talk about some of the evolution of the ADW. And where did you start? I think it was 2018, maybe where you came from, where you are today, maybe you can take us through the technological progression and maybe the path you took to get here. >> And so 2018, was when we released the service and made generally available, but of course, you know we started much earlier than that. And this was started within my product management team, and other organization. So we really sat down with a blank sheet of paper and we said, what should the data warehouse in the cloud look like? You know, let's put aside everything that Oracle does for its on-prem customers and think about how the cloud should be different. And the first thing that we said was, well, you know, if Oracle writes the database software, and Oracle builds its own hardware, and Oracle has created its own cloud, why do we need customers to manage a database? And that's where the idea of autonomous database came from. That Oracle is managing the entire ecosystem. And therefore we built a database that we believe it's far and away the simplest to use simplest data warehouse in the market. And that's been our focus since we started with 2018. And that continues to be our focus, looking at more ways that we can make an Autonomous Data Warehouse as simpler and easier for business users to get more value out of their data. >> Awesome, one more question. And actually Neil, you might want to chime in on this as well. So just from a technical perspective, you know forget the marketing claims and all the BS. How do you compare ADW to the so-called born in the cloud data warehouses? You mentioned Snowflake, you know Redshift, is Redshift born in the cloud. Well, it was par XL but Amazon's done some good work around Redshift. I think big query is maybe probably a better example 'cause it was, you know, like Snowflake started in the cloud but how do you compare ADW to some of these other so-called born in the cloud data warehouses? >> I think part of this, you mentioned Redshift wasn't important in the cloud. It was, you know, a code base taken from a prior company that was on-premise company. So they adapted it to the cloud, right? And you know, we have done, as George said, much of the same, which is, you know, our starting point was not you know another company's code base, but our starting point was our own code base. But as George said, it's less about the starting point and it's more about where you envision the end point, right? Which is that, you know, whatever your starting point is, I think we have a fundamental different view of the endpoint. Amazon talks about how they're literally built for you know, a cloud built for developers, right? You know, builders, right? And you know Oracle wasn't first in the infrastructure business, we entered through applications business. And all of a sudden, you know we began taking on 100s of 1000s and 100s of even more customers that were SAS customers. Underneath was the database and all the infrastructure. One of the things that we took away from that was that we couldn't possibly hire enough people DBA, to manage all the infrastructure below our applications customers. So one of the things that influenced this is that, you know customers expect SAS applications to just take care of themselves, right? So we had to essentially modify the infrastructure to allow it to do so as well, right? And we're bringing that capability to those people who, you know, may or may not have an application, but their interest is, you know more of this self-service agility type of aspect. >> So it seems to me and Georgia was sort of alluding to this before. I mean, when you mentioned Snowflake a couple of times, and then Neil, something you just said, I'm going to pick up on is you've been around for a long time. And you know, when I talked to the Snowflake people, they know Oracle, a lot of them came from Oracle. They understand I think how you can't just build Oracle overnight and build in the capabilities that Oracle has and the recovery. And you talk to customers and you know you are the gold standard of, you know especially mission critical databases, so I get that. But now you just sort of hit on it, is it takes a lot of people and skill to run the database. So that's the problem that you're saying you were attacking, is that, am I getting that right? >> Right, right, so the people that you talked about who originally built Snowflake came from Oracle, but they came from Oracle more than a decade ago. So their context is over a decade old, right? In the meantime, we've been busy, you know building a economies and many other capabilities, right? Their view of Oracle is that view that was back more than 10 years ago, right? They're still adding capability. So a really good example of this illustration is Oracle as you said, it's the most capable system that's out there and has been for many years. We've been focusing on how do we simplify that and how do we use machine learning embedded within the system itself? Because core to the concept of autonomous is that inside, is this machine learning system that's continually improving, right? That's the whole notion. Where in Snowflakes case, they're still adding functionality. Last year, they added masking which you know functionality they didn't have, but when they added the capability, they added it without, you know, the ability for a business user to actually take advantage of it. There's no capability for a business user to actually find the information that needs to be masked. And then after the information is found, you require a technical person to actually implement the mask. In Oracle's case, we've had masking and those capabilities for a long time, our focus was to be able to provide a simple tool that a business user can use that doesn't need technical or security experience. Find the data that needs to be masked PII data, and then hit a button and have it masked for you. So, you know, they're still, you know, without this notion of a strategy to move toward the system to heal itself and to manage itself, they're just going to continue. As they continue to add more capability, they will in turn add more complexity. What we're trying to do is take complexity out while others are adding it in, its an ironic twist. >> It is an ironic twist. It is interesting to look at it. And I don't want to make this about Snowflake. But I mean, Hey, I like what they're doing. I like them. I know the management, they're growing like crazy and you know and the customers tell me, hey, this is really simple. And it's simple by design. I mean, to your point over time it's going to get, you know, more and more complex. I was talking to Andy, I think it was Andy. He was saying, you know, they've got the different sizes you've got to shape some, you know, they call it t-shirt sizes. And I was like, okay, I got a small, I got a medium and a large, maybe that's okay. But you guys would say, we give more granular you know, a scaling, I guess is the point there, right? I mean George, I don't know if you can comment on that. It just a different strategy. You've got a company that was founded well, I guess, 2015 versus one that was founded in 1977. So you would think the latter has, you know way more function than the former, but George, anything you'd add to this conversation? >> Yeah, I mean, I'm always amazed that there are these database systems that are perceived as cloud native and they do things like sell you database sizes by t-shirt sizes, as you described. I mean, if you look at Snowflake, it's small, medium, large extra large too extra large, but they're all factors of two. You're getting a size of your database of two, four, eight, six, 32, et cetera. Or if you look at AWS Redshift, you're buying your database by the nodes. You say, how many nodes do you want? And in both those cases, this is a cloud native. This is saying we have some hardware underneath our database and we need you, Mr. Customer, to tell us how many servers you want. That's not the way the clouds should work, right? And I think this is one of the things that we did with Autonomous Data Warehouse. We said, no, that's not how the rules should work. We still run our database on hardware, we still have nodes and servers. We should tell the customer, how many CPU's you would like for your data warehouse? You want 16? Sounds good. You want 18? Yeah, we can give you 18. We're not, you know, we're not selling these to you in bundles of eight or bundles of six or powers of two. We'll sell you what you need. That's what cloud elasticity should be. Not this idea that oh, we are a database that should be managed by IT. IT already knows about servers and nodes. Therefore it's okay if we tell people your cloud data warehouse runs on nodes. Within Oracle as Neil said, we wouldn't. The data warehouse should be used by the people who want to actually analyze their data, should be used by the business users. >> Well, and so the other piece of cloud native that has become popular, is this idea of separating compute from storage and being able to scale those two independent of each other which is pretty important, right? Because you don't want to have to pay for a chunk of compute if you don't need the storage and vice versa. Maybe you could talk about that, how you solve that problem, to the extent that you solve that problem. >> Absolutely, we do separate compute print storage with Autonomous Data Warehouse. When you come in and you say, I need 10 CPU's for my data warehouse and I need two terabytes of storage. Those are two dependent decisions that you make. So they're not tied together in any way. And, you are exactly right, Dave, this is how things should work in the cloud. You should pay for what you need, pay for what you use, not be constrained by having big sets of storage you have to use for a given amount CPU or vice versa. >> Okay, go ahead Neil, please. >> Oh, just to add on to that, you know, the other aspect that comes into play is that, you know, so your starting point is X, whatever that happens to be. Over time that changes. And we all know that workloads vary right throughout the day throughout the month, throughout the year by various events that occur maybe the close of the year, close of business at the end of the quarter, it maybe you know, holiday season for retailers and so forth. So, you know, it's not only the starting point, but how do you actually manage the growth, right? scaling up and scaling down, right? In our case, we tried, as George said, we abstracted that completely for the customer basically said check a box, which has auto scale. So, if the system is required more resources, will apply more resources. And we do so instantaneously without any downtime whatsoever, right? Because you know, again, you know, people think in terms of these systems have now become business critical. So if the business critical, you can't just shut down to expand. Imagine during the holiday season is your business is ramping up. And then all of a sudden you have to scale, right? And your system either shuts down, reboots itself, right? Or it slows down to the point that it's a crawl and all your customers get frustrated. We don't do that. You click a button, auto scale and we take care of it for you smoothing out those lumps, right? Without any technical assistance. And again, if you look at Redshift, you look at all these various systems, they require technical assistance to be able to figure out not only your initial data, but how you scale out over time. >> Interesting, okay. So all is said, you know, a lot of companies are using Azure, AWS Google for infrastructure, why would these customers not just use their database? Why would they switch to Oracle or ADW? >> Well, I think Neil will probably add something. I want to start by saying a huge number of our existing Autonomous Data Warehouse customers today are customers of AWS and Azure. They are pulling data from AWS and Azure and bringing it into an Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we built feature Joe, I focused on product managers. We feel featured for that. And so it's perfectly viable and it it's almost commonplace, that the very largest enterprises to be doing that. But then coming to the question of why would they want to do it? I don't know, Neil, you want to take that? >> Yeah, yeah, so one of the things that we've really see emerge here is you know, a data warehouse doesn't generate the transactions on itself, right? So the data has to come from somewhere, right? And you ask yourself, well, where does the data come from? Well, in a lot of cases, that data is coming from applications and increasingly SAS applications that the company has deployed. And those are, you know, HR applications, you know, CRM applications, you know ERP applications and many vertical applications. In Oracle's case, what we've done is we say, okay, well, we have the application, this transactional thing, we have the infrastructure from the economist data warehouse, why don't we just make it really, really easy? And if you're an Oracle applications customer, that's already running on the Oracle cloud, we will essentially provide you the ability to create a data warehouse from that information, right? With a clicker, with largely either with a product and service or quick start kit. You don't start from scratch, you start from where you are. And there are many cases that where you are has data, very much as George mentioned before telcos, banks, insurance companies, governments, all of the data that they want to analyze, a lot of that data guess where it's coming from, it's coming from Oracle applications. So it makes sense to be able to have both the data that's generated and the data that's being analyzed close to the same place. Because at the end of the day, the payoff pitch for any form of analysis is not coming up with an insight, oh, I realized X, Y, Z, but it's rather putting the insight directly into production. And that's where, when you have this stuff spread all over God's greener trying to go from insight into action can take months, if not years. The reason that a lot of customers are now turning to us is that they need to be much more agile and they need to be able to turn that insight into action immediately without it being a science project. >> Okay, thank you for that. So let's tick them off. Like what are the top things that customers can get from Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse, that they couldn't get from say a Snowflake or Redshift or Big query or SQL server or something yet. I appreciate you guys' willingness to talk about the competition. Let's tick them off. What are the most important things that we should know about that they can't get elsewhere? >> So first, I mean, we already talked about a couple of what we think are really the major themes of Autonomous Data Warehouse. The services is autonomous. You don't need to worry about managing it, anyone can manage the data warehouse. The service is elastic. You can buy and pay for what you use. You know, those are just what we think of as being the general characteristics of Autonomous Data Warehouse. But you know, when you come to your question of, hey, what do we give that other vendors don't provide? And I think the one angle that Autonomous Data Warehouse does a really good job is and Neil was just discussing this, it focuses on the business problems, right? We have years and years of experience with not just database security, but data security, right? You know, every cloud vendor can say, oh we encrypt all your data, we have these compliance certifications, all of these things. And what they're saying is, we are securing your database, we are securing your database infrastructure. At Oracle of course has to do those as well. But where we go further, is we say, hey, no, no, no, no, no, we know what business users want. They want to secure their data. What kind of data am I storing? Do I have PII data? Could you detect whether there's PII data and tell me about it in case some user loaded something that I wasn't aware of? What kind of privileges did I give my users? Can you make sure that those privileges are right? And can you tell me if users were given privileges that they're not using maybe I need to take them away. These are the problems that Oracle's tackled in security over the last 20 years. It's really more about the business problem. Yeah, some other, oh, go ahead. >> Oh, I'm sorry, I got so many questions for you guys. We'll get back to that 'cause it sounds like there's a long list. (laughs) >> We have nowhere to go.(laughs) I want to pick up with George on something you said about elasticity. Is it true pay by the drink? Do you have a consumption pricing? I mean, can I dial it up and dial it down whenever I want? How does that work? >> Yes, I mean not to be too many technical details, but you say, I want 14 CPU's that's what your database runs at. You can change that default number anytime you want online, right? You can say, okay, I'm coming up on my quarter end, I'm going to raise my database 20 CPU. We just do it on the ply. We just adjust the size--- >> What about the other way? What about coming down? Can I go down to one? >> You go down, you can go down to one--- >> And you're not going to charge me for 14 if I go down to one? >> No, if you set it down to one, you get charged for one, right? >> Okay, that's good, that's good. >> In the background, you know we are also allowing levels of auto scaling. You say, if you say hey, I want to charged for 14 and Oracle, can you take care of all those scaling for me? So if a bunch of people jump on at 5:00 PM, to run some queries, 'cause the executive said, hey, I need a report by tomorrow morning. We'll take care of that for you. We'll let you go beyond 14 and only charge you for exactly what you use for those extra CPU's beyond 14. >> Okay, thank you. Go ahead, Neil. >> And maybe, if we add, you know, Andy talked about this when he was on that show with you last week, right? And you know, he talked about this concept of a converged database, but let me talk about it in the way that we see it from a business point of view, right? You know, business users are looking to, you know ask a variety of questions, right? And those questions need to be able to relate to both you know, the customer themselves, the relationship that the customer might have with others. You know, today we talk about like the social network and who are influencers within that, and then where they actually conduct business. Which is really, you know, in every case, it's on some form of increasingly on a mobile device. So in that case, you want to be able to ask questions, which is not only, you know, who should I focus on, but who are the key influencers within this community, right? That could influence others? And does that happen in a particular place in time? Meaning, you know, let's say pre COVID, it might happen at a coffee shop or somewhere else. We can answer all of those questions and more inside of the autonomous system without having to replicate the data out to one system that does graph and another system that does spatial, a third system that does this. It's like a business user. It's like, wait a minute, come on, you're trying to tell me that I need a separate system and replicate the data just be able to understand location? The answer in many cases is yes, you have to have separate, which a business person says, well, that's absurd. Can't I just do this all in one system? You can with Oracle. >> So look, I'm not trying to be the snarky journalist or analyst here but I want to keep pushing on this issue. So here we are, it's 2021. It's April. We're like a third of the way through the year. And so far, nobody has come out and said, okay, we're going to deliver Autonomous Data Warehouse just like Oracle. So I asked myself, well, why is Oracle doing this? You guys answered, you know, to reduce the labor cost. But I asked myself, is this how they're solving the problem of keeping relevant a database that spans five decades? And you guys said, no, no, this is cloud native born in the cloud, you know started essentially with a new mindset. But is this a trend that others are going to follow? You know, and if so, why haven't we seen it this idea of a self-driving databases? Why is it right now unique to Oracle? What's really going on here? >> So I think there's a really interesting thing that's happening, it's not visible outside of Oracle. It's very visible for those of us who work inside of the development organization. You know, if you look at Oracle, I can tell you bad. I mean, I think it's safe to presume Oracle has the largest database development organization on the planet, right? I mean, it was kind of the largest database or large most used database for the past two decades. And what's happened is we pivoted to building a cloud platform. We're not just building a database, we're taking all of these resources that we have with all these expertise of building database software. We were saying, we now have to build the platform to run and manage the database software in the cloud, right? And it's a little bit like, you know I think to make people relate to it a little better, there was a really good quote from Elon Musk couple of years ago, talking about Tesla. Like everyone looks at the car, right? Tesla, the car is really great. The hard part of this, is building the factory, and that's analogy holds for Oracle. What we're building is the cloud battery. And what we have transitioned is our database development organization is now building as robust a cloud as possible. So that you know, when we increase the number of databases by 10 X, we don't add 10 X, more cloud ops people to manage it. We are ramping up developer building features to automate the management of our cloud infrastructure. And with that automation, we get better ability, less errors, more security. We give benefits to our cloud data warehouse customers with it. And I think this something really important to realize, right? We build database software. We build, you know, an engineered system built for databases called exit data, and we build a cloud platform. And these are really equal tiers in what we are building and developing today in 2021 from Oracle database development organization. >> Well, you mentioned exit data, I want to shift gears here a little bit and talk about we're seeing this hybrid cloud on-premises clouds, they're finally gaining some traction. I got to give props Oracle's cloud of customers really the early to that game. I think it was the first in my view anyway, true same same vision, took you guys a little while to get there but it was the right vision. And the thing I always say about Oracle people don't understand is Oracle invest in R and D, your chairman is also the CTO. You guys are serious about technical investment so you know, that's where innovation comes from. But, and we heard during your recent earnings call, we heard some positive comments on this. So what's your take on delivering autonomous data warehouse on-prem and how do you compare with say Snowflake and AWS in that area? Snowflake, Frank Slootman, I've had him on record saying we're not going to do that halfway house. Forget it, we are always going to be in the cloud. We're never going to do an on-prem installation. AWS, we'll see to date. Yeah, I don't think you can get a Redshift for instance in outposts, but maybe that'll come. But, how do you see that emerging? What's your difference there? Maybe Neil, you could talk about that. >> Yeah, so, you know, I think, you know, customers had a lot of regulated industries, right? Still have concerns about the public cloud. And I think that when you hear statements like, you know, we're never going to do, you know, on-prem. Well, economist cloud at customer, it's not a classic on-prem solution. What it is, it's a piece of our cloud delivered in your data center. It's still the cloud software. Oracle manages it, Oracle, you know, the system itself manages itself and we take care of that responsibility so you don't have to. The differences is that we can make that available in a public cloud as well as in a private cloud, right? And there are so many use cases, you know, that you can imagine from a regulatory point of view, or just from a comfort point of view, where customers are choosing, they want the ability to decide for themselves where to place this stuff as compared to only having one option, right? And you know, you look at a lot of what's happening in the emerging world where, you know, there are a lot of places in the world that may not have, you know, really really high-speed internet connections to make, you know a public cloud feasible. Well, in that case, whether you're talking about, you know an oil rig or you're talking about something else, right? We can put that capability where it needs to be close to the operation that you're talking about, irrespective of the deployment option. >> Well, let me just follow up on that because I think it's interesting that, you know Frank Slootman said that to me, I oftentimes around AWS I say, never say never 'cause they'll surprise you, right? And I've learned that with Andy Jassy, but one of the things that seems difficult for on-prem, would be to separate that compute from storage because you have to actually physically move in resources. I think about Vertica Xeon mode. It's not quite the same, same. So, I mean, in that regard, maybe you're not the same same. And maybe that dogma makes sense for some companies. For Oracle, obviously you've got a huge on-prem state, thoughts on that. >> So, you know, clearly, you know, so typically what we'll do is that we'll provide additional hardware beyond what the customer might expect and that allows them to use the capabilities of expansion, right? We also have the ability to allow the customer to expand from their cloud of customer into the public cloud as well, of which we have a lot of those situations. So we can provide a level of elasticity, even on-premises by over provisioning the systems, well not charging the customer until they use only based on what they consume, right? Combined together with the ability for us to augment their usage in the public cloud as well, right? Where others, again are constraint, right? Because they only have a single option. >> Right, well, you've got the capital resources to do that as well which is not to be overlooked. Okay, I mean, I've blown our time here but you guys are so awesome. (laughs) I appreciate the candor. So last question and George, if you want to throw in a couple of those other tick boxes, you know the differentiators, please feel free, but for both of you, if you can leave customers with the one key point or the top key points on how Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse can really help them improve their business in the near term, what would they be? Maybe George, you could start and then Neil you bring us home. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that, as I said before, our starting point with Autonomous Data Warehouse, is how can we build a better customer experience in the cloud? And I think, and this continues throughout 2021, and I think that the big theme here is the business users should be able to get value directly from their data warehouses. We talked a few times about how a line of business user should be able to manage their own data, should be able to load their own data warehouse, should be able to start to work with their own data, should be able to run machine learning, model of build machine learning, models against that data and all of that built in, and delivered in Autonomous Data Warehouse. And we think that this is, you know we see our customer organizations large and small, the light bulbs starting to go on how easy the services to use to and how completed it is for helping business users get value from their data. And just adding onto what George said, you know, the development organization has done a tremendous job of really simplifying this cooperation. What we also tried to do that on the business side. You know, when a customer has an on-prem situation, they're looking at moving to the cloud, whether lift and shift or modernized, they're looking at costs, they're looking at risk and they're looking at time. So one of the things we look at is how do we mitigate that? How do we mitigate the cost, the risk and the time? Well, this week, I think we announced our new cloud lift program and the cloud lift program is what Oracle will provide to its cloud engineering resources around the world is that we will do, we will take the cost, the risk and the time out of the equation and Oracle will work directly with the customer or the customer's partner of choice, maybe an Accenture or Deloitte, and we will move them, right? You know, at little or no cost, most cases there's no cost whatsoever, right? We mitigate the risk because we're taking the risk on. And we've built a lot of automated tools to make that go very quickly, right? And securely, and then finally, we do it in a very very short amount of time as compared to what you would need to do with, you know 'cause there is no Redshift on-premises. There is no Snowflake on-premises. You have to convert from what you already have to that, right? And, but the company beyond the technological barriers that George talked about were also trying to smooth the operation so that a business itself can make a decision that not only did they not need the technical people to operate it, they won't need an entire consulting contract with millions of dollars in order to actually do the movement to the cloud. >> Well, guys, I really appreciate you coming on the program and again, your candor to speak openly about you know, your approach, the competitors. And so it's great having you, really really thank you for, for your time. >> Appreciate it. >> And thank you for watching everybody. Look, if you guys want to come back, go toe to toe with these guys, say the word you're always welcome to come on The Cube. One thing for sure, Oracle are serious, when it comes to database. Thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (bright music)