>> live from Washington, D. C. It's the Cube covering a ws public sector summit by Amazon Web services. >> Welcome back, everyone. You are watching the Cuban. We're kicking off our day two of our live coverage a ws public sector summit here in our nation's capital. I'm Rebecca Knight co hosting with John Fer Yer John. It's great to be here. 18,000 people having important conversations around around governments and cloud computing. Let's extract the signal from the noise. Let's do with the Cube. Does best, >> Yeah, I mean, this is to me a really exciting event because it's got the confluence of what we love tech and cloud computing and all the awesomeness of that and that enables. But even in Washington, D. C. With the backdrop against tech clash on this, you know, narrative run tech for illah tech for bad, bad check whatever you want to call it. Anti trust is a lot of narratives around that there's a huge story around check for good. So I think there's an interesting balance there around the conversations, but this is world of heavy hitters are this week You've got senior people at the government level here, you have senior tech people hear all kind of meddling and trying to figure out howto let the tail winds of cloud computing Dr Change within government against this backdrop of tech for ill as Jay Carney, whose the global marketing policy guy for Amazon on reports to Jeff Bezos, former Obama press secretary. He's super savvy on policy, super savvy on tech. But this is a really big point in time where the future's gonna be determined by some key people and some key decisions around the role of technology for society, for the citizens, United States, for nation states as people start to figure out the role of data and all the impact of this so super exciting at that level, but also dangerous and people are telling a little bit. But I also want to run hard. That's pretty much the big story. >> So let's let's let's get into this tech backlash because you're absolutely right. Through the public, sentiment about technology and the tech behemoths has really soured. The regulators are sharpening their blades and really paying much more attention, uh, particularly because so many people say, Hey, wait a minute, why? How does Google and Facebook know all this stuff about me, but what do you think? What are we hearing on the ground in terms of where regulation is going? Before, before the cameras were rolling, you were talking about this idea of regulators working closely with the innovators, observing but not meddling. I mean, do you think that that's that's That's these dollars underwears We're going in? >> Well, not really. I think that that's where people wanted to go in. I think right now the the surprise attack of tech taking over, if you will in the minds of people and or without Israel or not, it's happened, right? So I was talking yesterday around how the Internet, when Bill Clinton was president, really grew a little bit slower than the pace of this today. But they did a good job of managing that they had private sectors take over the domain name system. We saw that grow that created in the open Web and the Web was open. Today it's different. It's faster in terms of technology innovation, and it's not as open. You have Facebook, LinkedIn and these companies that have silos of data, and they're not sharing it with cyber security General Keith Alexander, former head of the NSA and the first commander of cyber command in the U. S. The United States under Obama. He pointed out that visibility into the cyber attacks aren't there because there's no sharing of data. We heard about open data and knishes from a think tank. The role of data and information is going to be a critical conversation, and I don't think the government officials are smart enough and educated enough yet to understand that So regulatory groups want to regulate they don't know how to. They're reaching out the Amazons, Google's and the Facebook to try to figure out what's going on. And then from there they might get a path. But they're still in the early stages. Amazon feels like they're not harming anyone there. Lower prices, fast delivery, more options. They're creating an enablement environment for tons of startups, so they feel like they're not harming anyone. You're the antitrust, but if they're going to being monopolizing the market place, that's another issue. But I still think Amazon still an enabling mode, and I think you know, they're just running so hard. It's going so fast, I think there's gonna be a big challenge. And if industry doesn't step up and partner with government, it's going to be a real mess. And I think it's just moving too fast. It's very complicated. Digital is nuanced. Now. You get the role of data all this place into into into effect there. >> Well, you're absolutely right that it's going fast. Teresa Carlson on the other day talking about eight of US growth, UH, 41% year over year and she said, Cloud is the new normal. The cloud cloud is here more and more governments on state and local, really recognizing and obviously international countries to recognize that this, this is they're adopting these cloud first approach is, >> yeah, I mean, I think the first approach is validated 100%. There's no debate. I think it's not an ah ha moment. Cloud Israel. Amazon has absolutely proven since the CIA deal in 2013 that this is a viable strategy for government to get to value fast, and that is the whole speed of cloud game. It's all about time to value with agility. Eccentric center. We've been talking about that with Dev Ops for a long, long time. The real thing that I think's happening that's going on. That's kind of, you know, to read the tea leaves and we'll hear from Corey Quinn. Our host at large will go on later. This is a new generation of talent coming on board and this new generation. It feels like a counterculture mindset. These are Dev ops, mindset, people not necessarily Dev ops like in the Cloud Computing Way. They're younger, they're thinking differently, and they think like Amazon not because they love Amazon, because that's their nature. Their got their getting content in a digital way, their digital natives. They're born into that kind of cultural mindset. Of what is all this nonsense red tape? What's the bottlenecked in solving these problems? There's really not a good answer anymore, because with cloud computing and machine learning an A I, you can solve things faster. So if you expose the data, smart people go well. That's a problem that could be song. Let's solve it. So I think there's going to be a resurgence is going to be a renaissance of of younger people, kind of in a counter culture way that's going to move fast and an impact society and I think it's gonna happen pretty quickly over the next 10 years. >> Well, that's one of the things that's so inspiring about being at a conference like this one a ws public sector summit, Because we are hearing getting back to what you just said. We're solving problems and these air problems about not just selling more widgets. This's actually about saving lives, helping people, delivery of healthcare, finding Mr Missing Persons and POWs who are missing in action. >> I mean, the problems could be solved with technology now for goodwill, I think will outweigh the technology for Ayla's Jay Carney calls it. So right now, unfortunately, was talking about Facebook and all this nonsense that happened with the elections. I think that's pretty visible. That's painful for people to kind of deal with. But in the reality that never should have happened, I think you're going to see a resurgence of people that's going to solve problems. And if you look at the software developer persona over the past 10 to 15 years, it went from hire. Some developers build a product ship it market. It makes some money to developers being the frontlines. Power players in software companies there on the front lines. They're making changes. They're moving fast, creating value. I see that kind of paradigm hitting normal people where they can impact change like a developer would foran application in society. I think you're gonna have younger people solving all kinds of crisis around. Whether it's open opioid crisis, healthcare, these problems will be solved. I think cloud computing with a I and machine learning and the role of data will be a big catalyst. >> But money, the money, the money is the thing we're going to have Cory Quinn on later talking about this this talent gap because there are people who are, As you said, they're young people who are motivated to solve these problems, and they want to work for mission driving institutions. What better mission, then helping the United States government >> just heard in the hallway? This has been the I've heard this multiple times here. This show I just heard someone saying Yeah, but that person's great. I can't keep them. What's happening is with the talent is the people that they need for cloud computing. Khun, get a job that pays three times Mohr orm or at the private sector. So, you know, Governor doesn't have stock options, >> right? All right, all right. If >> you're, ah, machine learning, >> people call girls in the lounge. >> Eso all kinds of different diners. But I think this mission driven culture of working for society for good might be that currency. That will be the equivalent stock option that I think is something that we were watching. Not haven't seen anything yet, But maybe that will happen. >> Paid in good feelings way. We've got a lot of great guests. Wave already teed up. We've got your E. Quinn. Bill Britain from Cal Poly to talk more about ground station. We have alien Gemma Smith of YSL Itics, uh, and Jameel Jaffer. >> Think ground station. But the biggest surprise for me and the show so far has been ground station that that product has got so much traction. That's ridiculous. I thought it would be kind of cool. Spacey. I like it, but it's turning into a critical need for a I ot I mean, I was just talking with you. Came on about the airplane having WiFi on the plane. We all like Wow, we expected now, but you go back years ago is like, Oh, my God. I got WiFi on the plane. That's a ground station, like dynamic people going. Oh, my God. I can provision satellite and get data back, all for io ti anywhere in the world. So that is pretty killer. >> Excellently. I'm looking forward to digging in with you with many guests today. >> Good. >> I'm Rebecca Knight. For John. For your stay tuned, you are watching the Cube.

>> Live from Washington D.C., it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hey welcome back everyone we're here live in Washington D.C. for Amazon Web Services Public Sector Summit, I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman our next guest is Dr. Swaine Chen, Senior Research Scientist of Infectious Disease, the Genome institute of Singapore. And also an assistant professor at The Medicinal National University of Singapore. Great to have you on, I know you've been super busy, you were on stage yesterday, we tried to get you on today, thanks for coming in and kind of bring it in to our two days of coverage here. >> Thank you for having me, I'm very excited to be here. >> So we were in between breaks here and we're talking about some of the work around DNA sequencing but, you know it's super fascinating. I know you've done some work there but, I want to talk first about your presence here at the Public Sector Summit. You were on stage, tell your story 'cause you have an very interesting presentation around some of the cool things you're doing in the cloud, take a minute to explain. >> That's right, so one of the big things that's happening in genomics is the rate of data acquisition is outstripping Moore's Law right? So for a single institute to try to keep up with compute for that, we really can't do it. So that really is the big driver for us to move to cloud, and why we're on AWS. And so then, of course once we can do that once we can sort of have this capacity, there's lots of things that my research is mostly on infection diseases, so one of the things where really you've got, all of a sudden, you've got a huge amount of data you need to process would be a case like an outbreak. And that just happens it happens unexpectedly. So we had one of these that happened that I talked about. And the keynote yesterday was on Group B Streptococcus. This is a totally unexpected disease. And so all of a sudden we had all this data we had to process, and try to figure out what was going on with that outbreak. And unfortunately we're pretty sure that there's going to be other outbreaks coming up in the future as well, and just, being able to be prepared for that. AWS helps us provide some of that capacity, and we're you know, continuously trying to upgrade our analytics for that as well. >> So give me an example of kind of where this kind of hits home for you, where it works. What is doing specifically? Is it changing the timeframe? Is it changing the analysis? Where is the impact for you? >> Yeah so it's all of this right? So it's all the sort of standard things that AWS is providing all of the other companies. So it's cheaper for us to just pay for what we use, especially when we have super spiky work loads. Like in the case of an outbreak right? If all of a sudden we need to sort of take over the cluster internally, well there's going to be a lot of people screaming about that, right? So we can kick that out to the cloud, just pay for what we use, we don't have to sort of requisition all the hardware to do that, so it really helps us along these things. And also gives us the capacity too think about you know as data just comes in more and more, we start to think about, lets just increase our scale. This is somethings that been happening, sort of incessantly in science, incessantly in genomics. So as just an example from my work and my lab we're studying infectious diseases we're studying mostly bacterial genomics. So the genomes of bacteria that cause infections. We've increased our scale 100x in the last four years in terms of the data sets that we're processing. And we see the samples coming in, we're going to do another 10x in the next two years. We just really wouldn't have been able to do that on our current hardware. >> Yeah, Dr. Chen, fascinating space. We love for years there was discussion of well oh how much it costs, to be able to do everything had gone down. But what has been fascinating is you've look, you've talked about that date and outstripping Moore's Law, and not only what you can do but in collaboration with others now, because there's many others around the globe that are doing this. 'Cause talk about that level of data, and how the cloud enables that. >> Yeah so that's actually another great point. So genomics is very strong into open source, especially in the academic community. Whenever we publish a paper, all the genomic data that's in that paper, it gets, uh oh (laughs). Whenever we, whenever we publish-- >> Mall's closing in three minutes. >> Three minutes cloud count. >> Three minutes, okay. Whenever we publish a paper, that data goes up and gets submitted to these public databases. So when I talk about 100x scale, that's really incorporating world wide globally all the data that's present for that species. So as an example, I talked about Group B Streptococcus, another bacteria we study a lot is E. coli, Escherichia coli. So that causes diarrhea, it causes urinary tract infections, bloodstream infections. When we pull down a data set locally, in Singapore, with 100, 200, 300 strains we can now integrate that with a global database of 10,000, 20,000 strains and just gain a global prospective on that. We get higher resolution, and really AWS helps us to pull in from these public databases, and gives the scale to burst out that processing of that many more strains. >> So the DNA piece of your work, does that tie into this at all? I mean obviously you've done a lot of work with the DNA side, was that playing into this as well? >> The? >> The DNA work, you've done in the past? >> Yeah so all of the stuff that we're doing is DNA, basically. So there are other frontiers, that have been explored quite a lot. So looking at RNA and looking at proteins and carbohydrates and lipids, but at the Genome Institute in Singapore, we're very focused on the genetics, and mostly are doing DNA. >> How has the culture changed from academic communities with cloud computing. We're seeing sharing, certainly a key part of data sharing. Can you talk about that dynamic, and what's different now than it was say five to even 10 years ago? >> Huh, I'd say that the academic community has always been pretty open, the academic community right? It's always been a very strong open source compatible kind of community right? So data was always supposed to be submitted to public databases. Didn't always happen, but I think as the data scale goes up and we see the value of the sort of having a global perspective on infectious diseases and looking for the source of an outbreak, the imperative to share data right? That looking at outbreaks like Ebola, where in the past people might try to hold data back because they wanted to publish that. But from a public health point of view, the imperative to share that data immediately is much stronger now that we see the value of having that out there. So I would say that's one of the biggest changes is the imperative is there more. >> I agree I think academic people I talk to, they always want to share, it might be not uploaded fast enough. So time is key. But I got to ask you a personal question, of all the work you've done on, you've seen a lot of outbreaks. This is kind of like scary stuff. Have you had those aha moments, just like mind blowing moments where you go, oh my God we did that because of the cloud? I mean an you point to some examples where it's like that is awesome, that's great stuff. >> Well so we certainly have quite a few examples. I mean outbreaks are just unexpected. Figuring out any of them and being able to impact, or sort of say this is how this transmission is, or this is what the source is. This is how we should try to control this outbreak. I mean all of those are great stories. I would say that , you know, to be honest were still early in our transition to the cloud, and we're kind of running a hybrid environment right now. Like really when we need to burst out, then we'll do that with the cloud. But most of our examples, so far, you know we're still early in this for cloud. >> To the spiky is the key value for you, when the hits pipe out. >> So what excited you about the future of the technology that, do you believe we'll be able to do as we just accelerate, prices go down, access to more information, access to more. What do you think we're going to see in this field the next, you know, one to three years? >> Oh I think on of the biggest changes that's going to happen, is we're going to shift completely how we do, for example in outbreaks right? We're going to shift completely how we do outbreak detection. It's already happening in the U.S. and Europe. We're trying to implement this in Singapore as well. Basically the way we detect outbreaks right now, is we see a rise in the number of cases, you see it at the hospitals, you see a cluster of cases of people getting sick. And what defines a cluster? You kind of need enough of these cases that it sort of statistically goes above your base line. But we actually, when we look at genomic data we can tell, we can find clusters of outbreaks that are buried in the baseline. Because we just have higher resolution. We can see the same bacteria causing infections in groups of people. It might be a small outbreak, it might be self limited. But we can see this stuff happening, and it's buried below the baseline. So this is really what's going to happen, is instead of waiting until, a bunch of people get sick before you know that there's an outbreak. We're going to see that in the baseline or as it's coming up with two, three, five cases. We can save hundreds of infections. And that's one of the things that's super exciting about moving towards the future where sequencing is just going to be a lot cheaper. Sequencing will be faster. Yeah it's a super exciting time. >> And more researching is a flywheel. More researching come over the top. >> Yep, exactly, exactly. >> That's great work, Dr. Swaine Chen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. We really appreciate-- >> No thank you. >> Congratulations, great talk on the keynote yesterday, really appreciate it. This is theCUBE bringing you all the action here as we close down our reporting. They're going to shut us down. theCUBE will go on until they pull the plug, literally. Thanks for watching, I'm John Ferrier, Stu Miniman, and Dave Vellante. Amazons Web Services Public Sector Summit, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

(energetic techno music) >> Announcer: Live from Washington D.C., it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, and its partner, Ecosystem. >> Interviewer: So what can Fugue do for you? Well, I'm going to guess that they can take your agency to the Cloud. >> Josh: You're, you're correct, Jeff. >> John W.: That's exactly what I'm looking at over here, the Fugue booth here, on the show floor at AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Welcome inside, live on theCUBE channel, John Wells and John Furrier, and Josh Stella, who is the founder, and CEO of Fugue. Did I get it right, by the way? >> You did get it right. >> Jeff: You're taking the agencies to the Cloud, correct. >> Taking agencies to the Cloud, taking companies to the Cloud, too, but of course, this is worldwide public sector, so we're focused on the agencies today. >> Yeah, we were just talking before this even started, just a little historical background here, you were with Amazon back in 2012, when this show started, and you told me that your commission with your colleagues was to get 600 attendees. >> Yeah, we wanted to get 600, I think we got 750, which is classic Amazon style, right. >> John W.: Bonus year. >> We go over. But yeah, over 10,000 registered this year, it's amazing. >> Which shows you that this explosive growth of this area, in terms of the public sector. So let's talk about Fugue a little bit. >> Sure. >> Before we dive a little bit, share with our viewers, core competencies, what your primary mission is. >> So Fugue is an automation system. Fugue is a way to completely automate the Cloud API surface. It's true infrastructure as code, so unlike a deployment tool that just builds something on Cloud, Fugue builds it, monitors it, self-heals it, modifies it every time, alerts if anything drifts, and we've added a layer to that for policy as codes. So you can actually express the rules of your organization, so if you're a government agency, those might be NIST or FISMA rules. If you're a start-up, those might be, we don't open SSH to the world. Those can be just expressed as code. So Fugue fully automates the stack, it doesn't just do deployment, and we just released the team conductor, that will manage dozens of AWS accounts for you, so many of our customers in financial services, and other enterprises have many, many AWS accounts. Fugue allows you to kind of centralize all of that control without slowing down your developers. Without getting in the way of going fast. >> John W.: And what, why is that big news? >> It's big news because in the past, the whole core value prop of Cloud is to go fast, is to innovate, iterate, be disruptive, and move quickly. What happens, though, is as you do that, at the beginning, when you're starting small, it looks pretty easy. You can go fast. But you learn pretty quickly over time that things get very messy and complex. So Fugue accelerates that going-fast part, but keeps everything kind of within the bounds of knowing who's running things, knowing what resources you're actually using. Who built what, who has permissions to do what. So it's really this foundational layer for organizations to build and control Cloud environments. >> Josh, one of the things we talked about in the opening was the government's glacial case of innovation over the years. But the pressure is on the innovate. So the, lot of emphasis on innovation. In an environment that's constrained by regulation, governance, policies. So they have kind of an Achilles heal there, but Cloud gives them an opportunity at a scale point to do something differently, I want to dip into that, but I'll set this question up by quoting a CIO I chatted with who's in the government sector. He's like, "Look, Cloud's like, jumping out of a plane "with a parachute I didn't even know was going to open up." So this is kind of a mindset, he was over generalizing, but again, to the point is, trust, scale, execution, risk. >> Mhm, mhm. >> It's a huge thing. >> Absolutely. >> How do you guys solve that problem for the agencies that want to go to the Cloud, because, certainly they want to go there, I think it's a new normal as Werner said. What do you guys do to make that go away? How do you make it go faster? >> Sure, so Amazon and other Cloud vendors have done a great job of building a very highly trusted, low level infrastructure that you can put together into systems. That's really the core offering. But there's still, in government agencies, as you point out, this need to follow rules and regulations and policies, and check those. So, one of the things Fugue does, is allows you to actually turn those rules into executable compiled code. So, instead of finding out you're breaking a rule a month later, in some meeting somewhere, that's going to loop back, it'll tell you in ten milliseconds. And how to fix it. So we allow you to go just as fast as anyone can on Cloud, but meeting all those extra constraints and so on. >> So you codify policies, and governance type stuff, right? >> That's part of what we do, but we also automate the entire infrastructure and grid. >> So this is the key, this is what I want to kind of jump to that next point. That's cool, but it would make sense that machine learning would probably be like an interesting take away. Cuz' everyone talks about training, data models, and it sounds like what you're doing, if you codify the policies, you probably set up well for growing and scaling in that world. Is that something that's on your radar? >> Sure. >> How do you guys look at that whole, okay I've got machine learning coming down the pike, everyone wants to get their hands on some libraries, and they want to get to unsupervised at some point. >> Yes, yeah it's a great question. So Fugue is really a bridge to that future where the entire infrastructure layer is automated and dynamic. And that's what you're talking about, where you have machine learning that are helping you make decisions about how to do computing. A lot of folks aren't ready for that yet. They're still thinking about the Cloud as kind of a remote data center, in our view, it's actually just a big distributed computer. And so, when you think about things like whether it's machine learning, or just algorithms to run over time that modify these environments to make them more efficient. Fugue is definitely built to get you there, but we start where you're comfortable now, which is just the first thing we have. >> Yeah of course, when you're still early to tells in the water, all kinds of data issues, you see the growth there. So the question is, what is the low hanging fruit for you? What are the use cases? Where are you guys winning, and what's new with your codifying the policies that you're releasing here? What's the use cases, and what're you guys releasing? >> Yeah, so common use case for us is integration with CI, CD, and DevOps for the entire infrastructure chain. So, you'll have organizations that want to go to a fully automated deployment management of infrastructure. And what they've learned in the past is, without Fugue, they might get some of the deployment automated, with a traditional CM tool or something like this, but because they're not doing the self healing, the constant maintenance on the environment, the updating of the environment, the alerting on it, there's a big missing link in terms of that automation. So, we're getting a lot of resonance in the financial services sector, and folks who are sophisticated on Cloud, and are doing large-scale Cloud operations. So, if you think about, uh, Netflix can build full automation for themselves, because they're Netflix. But not everyone fits in that boat. So Fugue is sort of the sorts of capabilities that Netflix built in a very specific way for themselves, we don't use their tools. We're a general purpose solution to that same class of problems. So, really, where we're winning is in automation of, again, deployments and operations of those deployments, but also in things like policy. We're seeing that not just in government but in the private sector as well. >> What are the big bottlenecks, what are the roadblocks for the industry? >> The roadblocks for the industry certainly are bringing, sort of, a legacy patterns to Cloud. Imagining it's a remote data center, thinking of it as virtual machines and storage, instead of just, infinite compute, and infinite resources that you put together. >> John F.: So the mindset's the bottleneck. >> Absolutely, it's cultural, yeah, yeah. And skillset, because in the DevOps Cloud world, everything should be code, and therefore everyone has to be a developer. And so, that's a little new. >> Is scale a big issue for you guys, with your customers? Is that something that they're looking for? And what's the kind of, scope of some of your customers and your use cases in government Clouds. >> Yeah, sure, absolutely. I mean, a lot of us came from AWS, so we know how to build things at scale. But yeah, y'know, a lot of folks start small with Fugue, but they go to very large, very quickly, has been our experience. So, scale across dozens, or hundreds AWS accounts-- >> That's where the automation, if they're not set up properly, bites them in the butt pretty much, right? >> Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, we get a lot of that too. Going back in and helping people put their system back together the right way for Cloud, because they went there from the-- >> Alright, so what's the magnified learnings from this, from your experience with your company, mobile rounds of finance, you guys are well financed, one of the best venture capitals, the firm's NEA, great backer, you guys are doing well. Over the years, what have you learned, what's the magnification of the learnings, and how do you apply it to today's marketplace? >> Um, we are in a massive transition. We're just beginning to see the effects of this transition. So, from 1947 until the Cloud, you just had faster, smaller, Von Neumann machines in a box. You had any ax that got down to the size of your wristwatch. The Cloud is intrinsically different. And so there is an opportunity now, that's a challenge, but it's a massive opportunity to get this new generation of computing right. So I'd say that the learnings for me, as a technologist coming into a CEO role, are how to relate these deeply technical concepts to the world in ways that are approachable, and that can show people a path that they want to get involved with. But I think the learnings that I've had at AWS and at Fugue are, this is the beginning of this ride. It's not going to end at containers, it's not going to end at Lambda, it's going to continue to evolve. And the Cloud in ten years is going to look massively different than it does now. >> So, when you said, "to get it right," the computer, I mean, such as, or in what way, I mean, we have paths right, routes you could take. So you're saying that there are a lot of options that will be pitfalls, and the others that would be great opportunities. >> Well, that's absolutely right. So, for example, betting on the wrong technologies too soon, in terms of where the Cloud is going to finally land, is a box canyon, right. That's an architectural dead end. If you cannot compose systems across all these disparate Cloud surfaces, the application boundary, the system boundary is now drawn across services. You used to be able to open an IDE, and see your application. Well, now that might be spread across virtual machines, containers, Lambda, virtual discs, block storage, machine learning services, human language recognition services. That's your application boundary. So, if you can't understand all of that in context, you're in real trouble. Because the change is accelerating. If you look at the rate of new services, year over year in the Cloud, it's going up, not down. So the future's tougher. >> So, if I'm a government service, though, and I think John just talked about this, I'm just now getting confidence, right? >> Yes. >> I'm really feeling a little bit better, because I met somebody to hold my hand. And then I hear on the other hand, say, we have to make sure we get this right. So now all of a sudden, I'm backing off the edge again. I'm not so sure. So how do you get your public sector client base to take those risks, or take those daring steps, if you will. You know, we've had a lot of really great conversations and have a lot of great relationships in public sector, what we're seeing there is, like in the commercial world. I mean, public sector wasn't that far behind commercial on Cloud. When I was at Amazon, y'know, five years ago, I worked mostly with public sector costumers, and they were trying hard there, they were champions already, moving there. So, one of the things that Fugue does very effectively is, because we have this ability to deterministically, programmatically follow the rules, it takes it off of the humans, having to go and check. And that's always the slow and expensive part. So we can give a lot of assurance to these government agencies that, for example, if one of their development teams chooses to deploy something to Cloud, in the past, they'd have to go look for that. Well, with Fugue, they literally cannot deploy it, unless it's correct. And that's what I mean by "get it right." Is the developer, who's sitting there, and I've been a developer for decades, they want to do things by the rules. They want to do things correctly. But they don't always want to read the stack of books like this, and follow, y'know, check their boxes. So, with Fugue, you just get a compiler error and you keep going. >> Josh, I wanted to ask you about a new category we see emerging, it's really not kind of mainstream yet, by Wikibon research, and still getting in theCUBE, we get to see things a little bit early. Plus we have a data science team to skim through the predictive analytics. One thing that's clear is SAS businesses are emerging. So, SAS is growing at an astounding rate, platform is a service, and infrastructure's a service, I mean, Javassist doesn't think to see it that way, I don't you do either. It's infrastructure and SAS pretty much. So pretty much, everyone's going to, at some point, be a Cloud service provider. And there'll be a long tail distribution, we believe, on niche, to completely huge, and the big ones are going to be the Amazons, the Facebooks, the Google, but then there's going to be service providers that is going to emerge. They're going to be on Clouds, with governments, so we believe that to be true. If you believe that to be true, then the question is, how do I scale it? So, now I'm a solution architect in an enterprise. And like you said, it's intrinsically different in the Cloud than it was, say on premise, or even the critical traditional enterprise computing. I've got to now completely change my architectural view. >> Yes. >> If you think it's a big computer, then you've got to be an operating systems guy. (laughs) You've got to say, okay, there's a linker, there's a load, there's a compiler, I've got subsystems, I got IO. You got to start thinking that way. How do you talk to your friends, and colleagues, and customers around how to be a new solutions architect. >> Yeah, so I think it's a balancing act. Because we are this transition stage, right. The modern Cloud is still a Prius. (chuckles) And the future Cloud is the Tesla, in terms of how customers use it. We're in this transition phase in technologies, so you have to have one foot in both camps. Immutable infrastructure patterns are incredibly important to any kind of new development, and if you go to the Fugue.cosite or O'Reily, we wrote a little book with them on immutable infrastructure patterns. So, the notion there is, you don't maintain anything, you just replace it. So you stand a compute instance, Verner likes to talk about, these are cattle, not pets, Y'know, or paper cuff computing, that's right. You never touch it, you never do configuration management, you crumple it up, throw it away, and make a new one. That's the right new pattern, but a lot of the older systems that people still rely upon don't work that way. So, you have to have a foot in each camp as a solutions architect in Cloud, or as the CEO of a Cloud company. You have to understand both of those, and understand how to bridge between them. And understand it's an evolution-- >> And the roles within the architecture, as well. >> That's right. >> They coexist, this coexistence. >> Absolutely. You know, it's interesting you said, "everyone's going to become a service provider." I'd put that a little differently, the only surface that matters in the future is APIs. Everything is APIs. And how you express your APIs is a business question. But, fundamentally, that's where we are. So, whether you're a sales force with a SAS, I really don't like the infrastructure and SAS delineation, because I think the line's very blurred. It's just APIs that you compose into applications. >> Well, it's a tough one, this is good debate we could have, certainly, we aren't going to do it live on theCUBE, and arm wrestle ourselves here, and talk about it. But, one of the things about the Cloud that's amazing is the horizontal scalability of it. So, you have great scalability horizontally, but also, you need to have specialty, specialism at the app layers. >> Josh: Yes. >> You can't pick one or the other, they're not mutually exclusive. >> Josh: That's right. >> So, you say, okay, what does a stack look like? (laughs) If everything's in API, where the hell's the stack? >> Yeah, well that's why we write Fugue. Because Fugue does unify all that. Right, you can design one composition in Fugue. One description of that stack. And then run the whole thing as a process, like you would run Apache. >> So you're essentially wrapping a system around, you like almost what Docker Containers is for microservices. You are for computing. >> And including the container's managers. (John F. Laughs) So that's just one more service to us, that's exactly right. And, y'know, you asked me earlier, "how does this affect agencies?" So one thing we're really excited about today is, we just announced today, we're live on GovCloud, so we support GovCloud now, you can run in the commercial regions, you can run in GovCloud, and one of the cool things you can do with Fugue, because of that system wrapping capability, is build systems in public regions, and deploy them on GovCloud and they'll just work, instead of having to figure out the differences. >> Oh that's what what you think about the Cloud, standing up's something that's a verb now. "Hey I'm going to stand this up." That's, what used to be Cloud language, now that's basically app language. >> I think what you're getting at here is something near to my heart, which is all there are anymore are applications. Talking about infrastructure is kind of like calling a chair an assembly of wood. What we're really about are these abstractions, and the application is the first class citizen. >> I want to be comfortable, and sit down, take a load off. >> Josh: That's right, that's right. >> That's what a chair does. And there's different versions. >> John W.: You don't want to stand up, you want to sit down. >> And there's different, there's the Tesla of the chairs, and then there's the wooden hard chair for your lower back, for your back problems. >> Josh: Exactly, exactly. >> The Tesla really is a good use case, because that points to the, what I call, the fine jewelry of a product. Right, they really artistically built amazing product, where the value is not so much the car, yeah there's some innovations with the car, you've got that, with electric. But it's the data. The data powering the car that brings back the question of the apps and the data, again, I want to spend all my time thinking about how to create a sustainable, competitive advantage, and serve my customers, rather than figure out how to architect solutions that require configuration management, and tons of labor. This is here the shift is. This is where the shift is going from non-differentiated operations to high-value added capabilities. So, it's not like jobs are going up. Yeah, some jobs are going away, I believe that. But, it's like saying bank tellers were going to kill the bank industry. Actually, more branches opened up as a result. >> Oh yeah, this is the democratization of computing as a service. And that's only going to grow computing as a whole. Getting back to the, kind of, fine jewelry, you talked about data as part of that, I believe another part of that is the human experience of using something. And I think that is often missing in enterprise software. So, you'll see in the current release of Fugue, we just put into Beta a very, we've spent about two years on it, a graphic user interface that shows you everything about the system in an easily digestible way. And so, I think that the, kind of, the effect of the iPhone on computing in the enterprise is important to understand, too. The person that's sitting there at an enterprise environment during their day job gets in their Tesla, because they also love beautiful things. >> Well, I mean, no other places for you guys to do that democratization, and liberation, if you will. The government Cloud, and public sector, is the public sector. They need, right now they've been on antiquated systems for (chuckles) yeah, not only just antiquated, siloed, y'know, Cobol systems, main framed, and they've got a lot of legacy stuff. >> There is, there's a lot of legacy stuff, and they're a lot of inefficiencies in the process model in how things get done, and so, we love that AWS has come in, and when we were there, we helped do that part. And now with Fugue, we want to take these customers to kind of, the next level of being able to move forward quickly. >> Well, if you want to take your agency to the Cloud, Fugue is your vehicle to do that. Josh Stella, founder, CEO. Thanks for being with us here on theCUBE. >> Thanks so much. >> We appreciate it. We'll continue, live from Washington, D.C. Nation's capital here, AWS Public Sector Summit, 2017 on theCUBE. >> John F.: Alright, great job, well done. (upbeat techno music)