>> Announcer: From Chicago, it's theCUBE, covering Oracle Transformation Day 2020. Brought to you by Oracle Consulting. >> Welcome back, everybody, to this special digital event coverage that theCUBE is looking into the rebirth of Oracle Consulting. Janet George is here, she's a group VP, autonomous for advanced analytics with machine learning and artificial intelligence at Oracle, and she's joined by Grant Gibson, who's a group VP of growth and strategy at Oracle. Folks, welcome to theCUBE, thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Grant, I want to start with you because you've got strategy in your title. I'd like to start big-picture. What is the strategy with Oracle, specifically as it relates to autonomous, and also consulting? >> Sure, so, I think Oracle has a deep legacy of strength in data, and over the company's successful history, it's evolved what that is from steps along the way. And if you look at the modern enterprise, an Oracle client, I think there's no denying that we've entered the age of AI, that everyone knows that artificial intelligence and machine learning are a key to their success in the business marketplace going forward. And while generally it's acknowledged that it's a transformative technology, and people know that they need to take advantage of it, it's the how that's really tricky, and that most enterprises, in order to really get an enterprise-level ROI on an AI investment, need to engage in projects of significant scope. And going from realizing there's an opportunity or realizing there's a threat to mobilizing yourself to capitalize on it is a daunting task for enterprise. Certainly one that's, anybody that's got any sort of legacy of success has built-in processes, has built-in systems, has built-in skill sets, and making that leap to be an autonomous enterprise is challenging for companies to wrap their heads around. So as part of the rebirth of Oracle Consulting, we've developed a practice around how to both manage the technology needs for that transformation as well as the human needs, as well as the data science needs to it. So there's-- >> So, wow, there's about five or six things that I want to (Grant chuckles) follow up with you there, so this is a good conversation. Janet, ever since I've been in the industry, when you're talking about AI, it's sort of start-stop, start-stop. We had the AI winter, and now it seems to be here. It almost feels like the technology never lived up to its promise, 'cause we didn't have the horsepower, the compute power, it didn't have enough data, maybe. So we're here today, it feels like we are entering a new era. Why is that, and how will the technology perform this time? >> So for AI to perform, it's very reliant on the data. We entered the age of AI without having the right data for AI. So you can imagine that we just launched into AI without our data being ready to be training sets for AI. So we started with BI data, or we started with data that was already historically transformed, formatted, had logical structures, physical structures. This data was sort of trapped in many different tools, and then, suddenly, AI comes along, and we say, take this data, our historical data, we haven't tested it to see if this has labels in it, this has learning capability in it. We just thrust the data to AI. And that's why we saw the initial wave of AI sort of failing, because it was not ready for AI, ready for the generation of AI, if you will. >> So, to me, this is, I always say this was the contribution that Hadoop left us, right? I mean, Hadoop, everybody was crazy, it turned into big data. Oracle was never that nuts about it, they just kind of watched, sat back and watched, obviously participated. But it gathered all this data, it created cheap data lakes, (laughs) which people always joke, turns into data swamps. But the data is oftentimes now within organizations, at least present, right. >> Yes, yes, yes. >> Like now, it's a matter of what? What's the next step for really good value? >> Well, basically, what Hadoop did to the world of data was Hadoop freed data from being stuck in tools. It basically brought forth this concept of platform. And platform is very essential, because as we enter the age of AI and we enter the petabyte range of data, we can't have tools handling all of this data. The data needs to scale. The data needs to move. The data needs to grow. And so, we need the concept of platform so we can be elastic for the growth of the data. It can be distributed. It can grow based on the growth of the data. And it can learn from that data. So that's the reason why Hadoop sort of brought us into the platform world. And-- >> Right, and a lot of that data ended up in the cloud. I always say for years, we marched to the cadence of Moore's law. That was the innovation engine in this industry. As fast as you could get a chip in, you'd get a little advantage, and then somebody would leapfrog. Today, it's, you've got all this data, you apply machine intelligence, and cloud gives you scale, it gives you agility. Your customers, are they taking advantage of that new innovation cocktail? First of all, do you buy that, and how do you see them taking advantage of this? >> Yeah, I think part of what Janet mentioned makes a lot of sense, is that at the beginning, when you're taking the existing data in an enterprise and trying to do AI to it, you often get things that look a lot like what you already knew, because you're dealing with your existing data set and your existing expertise. And part of, I think, the leap that clients are finding success with now is getting novel data types. You're moving from the zeroes and ones of structured data to image, language, written language, spoken language. You're capturing different data sets in ways that prior tools never could, and so, the classifications that come out of it, the insights that come out of it, the business process transformation that comes out of it is different than what we would have understood under the structured data format. So I think it's that combination of really being able to push massive amounts of data through a cloud product to be able to process it at scale. That is what I think is the combination that takes it to the next plateau for sure. >> So you talked about sort of we're entering the new era, age of AI. A lot of people kind of focus on the cloud as sort of the current era, but it really does feel like we're moving beyond that. The language that we use today, I feel like, is going to change, and you just started to touch on some of it, sensing, our senses, and the visualization, and the auditory, so it's sort of this new experience that customers are seeing, and a lot of this machine intelligence behind that. >> I call it the autonomous enterprise, right? >> Okay. >> The journey to be the autonomous enterprise. And when you're on this journey to be the autonomous enterprise, you need, really, the platform that can help you be. Cloud is that platform which can help you get to the autonomous journey. But the autonomous journey does not end with the cloud, or doesn't end with the data lake. These are just infrastructures that are basic, necessary, necessities for being on that autonomous journey. But at the end, it's about, how do you train and scale very large-scale training that needs to happen on this platform for AI to be successful? And if you are an autonomous enterprise, then you have really figured out how to tap into AI and machine learning in a way that nobody else has to derive business value, if you will. So you've got the platform, you've got the data, and now you're actually tapping into the autonomous components, AI and machine learning, to derive business intelligence and business value. >> So I want to get into a little bit of Oracle's role, but to do that, I want to talk a little bit more about the industry. So if you think about the way the industry seems to be restructuring around data, historically, industries had their own stack or value chain, and if you were in the finance industry, you were there for life, you know? >> Yes. >> You had your own sales channel, distribution, et cetera. But today, you see companies traversing industries, which has never happened before. You see Apple getting into content, and music, and there's so many examples, Amazon buying Whole Foods. Data is sort of the enabler there. You have a lot of organizations, your customers, that are incumbents, that they don't want to get disrupted. A big part of your role is to help them become that autonomous enterprise so they don't get disrupted. I wonder if you could maybe comment on how you're doing. >> Yeah, I'll comment, and then, Grant, you can chime in. >> Great. >> So when you think about banking, for example, highly regulated industry, think about agriculture, these are highly regulated industries. It is very difficult to disrupt these industries. But now you're looking at Amazon, and what does an Amazon or any other tech giant like Apple have? They have incredible amounts of data. They understand how people use, or how they want to do, banking. And so, they've come up with Apple Cash, or Amazon Pay, and these things are starting to eat into the market. So you would have never thought an Amazon could be a competition to a banking industry, just because of regulations, but they are not hindered by the regulations because they're starting at a different level, and so, they become an instant threat and an instant disruptor to these highly regulated industries. That's what data does. When you use data as your DNA for your business, and you are sort of born in data, or you've figured out how to be autonomous, if you will, capture value from that data in a very significant manner, then you can get into industries that are not traditionally your own industry. It can be the food industry, it can be the cloud industry, the book industry, you know, different industries. So that's what I see happening with the tech giants. >> So, Grant, this is a really interesting point that Janet is making, that, you mentioned you started off with a couple of industries that are highly regulated and harder to disrupt. You know, music got disrupted, publishing got disrupted, but you've got these regulated businesses, defense. Automotive hasn't been truly disrupted yet, so Tesla maybe is a harbinger. And so, you've got this spectrum of disruption. But is anybody safe from disruption? >> (laughs) I don't think anyone's ever safe from it. It's change and evolution, right? Whether it's swapping horseshoes for cars, or TV for movies, or Netflix, or any sort of evolution of a business, I wouldn't coast on any of it. And I think, to your earlier question around the value that we can help bring to Oracle customers is that we have a rich stack of applications, and I find that the space between the applications, the data that spans more than one of them, is a ripe playground for innovations where the data already exists inside a company but it's trapped from both a technology and a business perspective, and that's where, I think, really, any company can take advantage of knowing its data better and changing itself to take advantage of what's already there. >> The powerful people always throw the bromide out that data is the new oil, and we've said, no, data's far more valuable, 'cause you can use it in a lot of different places. Oil, you can use once and it's all you can do. >> Yeah. >> It has to follow the laws of scarcity. Data, if you can unlock it, and so, a lot of the incumbents, they have built a business around whatever, a factory or process and people. A lot of the trillion-dollar startups, that become trillionaires, you know who I'm talking about, data's at the core, they're data companies. So it seems like a big challenge for your incumbent customers, clients, is to put data at the core, be able to break down those silos. How do they do that? >> Mm, grating down silos is really super critical for any business. If it's okay to operate in a silo, for example, you would think that, "Oh, I could just be payroll and expense reports, "and it wouldn't matter if I get into vendor "performance management or purchasing. "That can operate as a silo." But anymore, we are finding that there are tremendous insights between vendor performance management and expense reports, these things are all connected. So you can't afford to have your data sit in silos. So grating down that silo actually gives the business very good performance, insights that they didn't have before. So that's one way to go. But another phenomena happens. When you start to grate down the silos, you start to recognize what data you don't have to take your business to the next level. That awareness will not happen when you're working with existing data. So that awareness comes into form when you grate the silos and you start to figure out you need to go after a different set of data to get you to new product creation, what would that look like, new test insights, or new capex avoidance, that data is just, you have to go through the iteration to be able to figure that out. >> And then it becomes a business problem, right? If you've got a process now where you can identify 75% of the failures, and you know the value of the other 25% of the failures, it becomes a simple investment. "How much money am I willing to invest "to knock down some portion of that 25%?" And it changes it from simply an IT problem or an expense management problem to the universal cash problem. >> To a business problem. >> But you still need a platform that has APIs, that allows you to bring in-- >> Yes, yes. >> Those data sets that you don't have access to, so it's an enabler. It's not the answer, it's not the outcome, in and of itself, but it enables the outcome. >> Yeah, and-- >> I always say you can't have the best toilet if your plumbing doesn't work, you know what I mean? So you have to have your plumbing. Your plumbing has to be more modern. So you have to bring in modern infrastructure, distributed computing, that, there's no compromise there. You have to have the right ecosystem for you to be able to be technologically advanced and a leader in that space. >> But that's kind of table stakes, is what you're saying. >> Stakes. >> So this notion of the autonomous enterprise, help me here. 'Cause I get kind of autonomous and automation coming into IT, IT ops. I'm interested in how you see customers taking that beyond the technology organization into the enterprise. >> Yeah, this is such a great question. This is what I've been talking about all morning. I think when AI is a technology problem, the company is at a loss. AI has to be a business problem. AI has to inform the business strategy. When companies, the successful companies that have done, so, 90% of our investments are going towards data, we know that, and most of it going towards AI. There's data out there about this. And so, we look at, what are these 90% of the companies' investments, where are these going, and who is doing this right, and who is not doing this right? One of the things we are seeing as results is that the companies that are doing it right have brought data into their business strategy. They've changed their business model. So it's not making a better taxi, but coming up with Uber. So it's not like saying, "Okay, I'm going to be "the drug manufacturing company, "I'm going to put drugs out there in the market," versus, "I'm going to do connected health." And so, how does data serve the business model of being connected health, rather than being a drug company selling drugs to my customers? It's a completely different way of looking at it. And so now, AI's informing drug discovery. AI is not helping you just put more drugs to the market. Rather, it's helping you come up with new drugs that will help the process of connected care. >> There's a lot of discussion in the press about the ethics of AI, and how far should we take AI, and how far can we take it from a technology standpoint, (laughs) long road map, there. But how far should we take it? Do you feel as though public policy will take care of that, a lot of that narrative is just kind of journalists looking for the negative story? Will that sort itself out? How much time do you spend with your customers talking about that, and what's Oracle's role there? Facebook says, "Hey, the government should figure this out." What's your sort of point of view on that? >> I think everybody has a role, it's a joint role, and none of us can give up our responsibilities. As data scientists, we have heavy responsibility in this area, and we have heavy responsibility to advise the clients on this area also. The data we come from, the past, has to change. That is inherently biased. And we tend to put data science on biased data with a one-dimensional view of the data. So we have to start looking at multiple dimensions of the data. We've got to start examining, I call it irresponsible AI, when you just simply take one variable, we'll start to do machine learning with that, 'cause that's not right. You have to examine the data. You've got to understand how much bias is in the data. Are you training a machine learning model with the bias? Is there diversity in the models? Is there diversity in the data? These are conversations we need to have. And we absolutely need policy around this, because unless our lawmakers start to understand that we need the source of the data to change, and if we look at the source of the data, and the source of the data is inherently biased or the source of the data has only a single representation, we're never going to change that downstream. AI's not going to help us there. So that has to change upstream. That's where the policy makers come into play, the lawmakers come into play. But at the same time, as we're building models, I think we have a responsibility to say, "Can we triangulate? "Can we build with multiple models? "Can we look at the results of these models? "How are these features ranked? "Are they ranked based on biases, sex, age, PII information? "Are we taking the PII information out? "Are we really looking at one variable?" Somebody failed to pay their bill, but they just failed to pay their bill because they were late, versus that they don't have a bank account and we classify them as poor on having no bank account, you know what I mean? So all this becomes part of responsible AI. >> But humans are inherently biased, and so, if humans are building algorithms-- >> That's right, that's right. >> There is the bias. >> So you're saying that through iteration, we can stamp out the bias? Is that realistic? >> We can stamp out the bias, or we can confirm the bias. >> Or at least make it transparent. >> Make it transparent. So I think that even if we can have the trust to be able to have the discussion on, "Is this data "the right data that we are doing the analysis on?" and start the conversation there, we start to see the change. >> Well, wait, so we could make it transparent, then I'm thinking, a lot of AI is black box. Is that a problem? Is the black box syndrome an issue, or are we, how would we deal with it? >> Actually, AI is not a black box. We, in Oracle, we are building our data science platform with an explicit feature called explainability of the model, on how the model came up with the features, what features it picked. We can rearrange the features that the model picked. So I think explainability is very important for ordinary people to trust AI. Because we can't trust AI. Even data scientists can't trust AI, to a large extent. So for us to get to that level where we can really trust what AI's picking, in terms of a model, we need to have explainability. And I think a lot of the companies right now are starting to make that as part of their platform. >> So that's your promise to clients, is that your AI will not be a black box. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> 'Cause that's not everybody's promise. >> Yes. >> I mean, there's a lot of black box in AI, as you well know. >> Yes, yes, there is. If you go to open source and you start downloading, you'll get a lot of black box. The other advantage to open source is sometimes you can just modify the black box. They can give you access and you can modify the black box. But if you get companies that have released to open source, it's somewhat of a black box, so you have to figure out the balance between. You don't really have to worry too much about the black box if you can see that the model has done a pretty good job as compared to other models. If I triangulate the results of the algorithm, and the triangulation turns out to be reasonable, the accuracy and the r values and the matrixes show reasonable results, then I don't really have to worry if one model is too biased compared to another model. But I worry if there's only one dimension to it. >> Mm-hm, well, ultimately, to much of the data scientists' dismay, somebody on the business side is going to ask about causality. >> That's right. >> "Well, this is what "the model says, why is it saying that?" >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah. >> And, ethical reasons aside, you're going to want to understand why the predictions are what they are, and certainly, as you go in to examine those things, as you look at the factors that are causing the predictions and the outcomes, I think any sort of business should be asking those responsibility questions of everything they do, AI included, for sure. >> So, we're entering a new era, we kind of all agree on that. So I just want to throw a few questions out and have a little fun here, so feel free to answer in any order. So when do you think machines will be able to make better diagnoses than doctors? >> I think they already are making better diagnoses. I mean, there's so much, like, I found out recently that most of the very complicated cancer surgeries are done by machines, doctors just standing by and making sure that the machines are doing it well. And so, I think the machines are taking over in some aspects, I wouldn't say all aspects. And then there's the bedside manners, where you (laughs) really need the human doctor, and you need the comfort of talking to the doctor. >> Smiley face, please! (Janet laughs) >> That's advanced AI, to give it a better bedside manner. >> Okay, when do you think that driving and owning your own vehicle is going to be the exception rather than the rule? >> That, I think, is so far ahead, it's going to be very, very near future, because if you've ever driven in an autonomous car, you'll find that after your initial reservations, you're going to feel a lot more safer in an autonomous car. Because it's got a vision that humans don't. It's got a communication mechanism that humans don't. It's talking to all the fleets of cars. >> It's got a richer sense of data. >> It's got a richer sense of data, it's got a richer sense of vision, it's got a richer sense of ability to (snaps) react when a kid jumps in front of the car. Where a human will be terrified and not able to make quick decisions, the car can. But at the same time, we're going to have some startup problems. We're going to see AI misfire in certain areas, and insurance companies are gearing themselves up for that, 'cause that's just, but the data's showing us that we will have tremendously decreased death rates. That's a pretty good start to have AI driving our cars. >> You're a believer, well, and you're right, there's going to be some startup issues, because this car, the vehicle has to decide, "Do I kill that person who jumped in front of me, "or do I kill the driver?" Not kill, I mean, that's overstating-- >> Yeah. >> But those are some of the startup things, and there will be others. >> And humans, you don't question the judgment system for that. >> Yes. >> There's no-- >> Dave: Right, they're yelling at humans. >> Person that developed, right. It's treated as a one-off. But I think if you look back five years, where were we? You figure, the pace of innovation and the speed and the gaps that we're closing now, where are we going to be in five years? >> Yeah. >> You have to figure it's, I have an eight-year-old son, and I question if he's ever going to drive a car. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How about retail? Do you think retail stores largely will disappear? >> Oh, I think retail, there will be a customer service element to retail, but it will evolve from where it's at in a very, very high-stakes rate, because now, with RFID, you know who's, we used to be invisible as we walked, we still are invisible as you walk into a retail store, even if you spend a lot of money in retail. And now, with buying patterns and knowing who the customer is, and your profile is out there on the Web, just getting a sense of who this person is, what their intent is walking into the store, and doing responsible AI, bringing value to that intent, not irresponsibly, that will gain the trust, and as people gain the trust. And then RFIDs, you're in the location, you're nearby, you'd normally buy the suit, the suit's on sale, bring it all together. So I think there's a lot of connective tissue work that needs to happen, but that's all coming together. >> Yeah, it's about the value-add and what the proposition to the customer is. If it's simply there as a place where you go and pick out something you already know what you're going to get, that store doesn't add value, but if there's something in the human expertise, or in the shared, felt sudden experience of being in the store, that's where you'll see retailers differentiate themselves. >> I like to shop still. (laughs) >> Yeah, yeah. >> You mentioned Apple Pay before. Well, you think traditional banks will lose control of the payment systems? >> They're already losing control of payment systems. If you look at, there was no reason for the banks to create Siri-like assistants. They're all over right now. And we started with Alexa first. So you can see the banks are trying to be a lot more customized, customer service, trying to be personalized, trying to really make you connect to them in a way that you have not connected to the bank before. The way that you connected to the bank is you knew the person at the bank for 20 years, or since when you had your first bank account. That's how you connected with the banks. And then you go to a different branch, and then, all of a sudden, you're invisible. Nobody knows you, nobody knows that you were 20 years with the bank. That's changing. They're keeping track of which location you're going to, and trying to be a more personalized. So I think AI is a forcing function, in some ways, to provide more value, if anything. >> Well, we're definitely entering a new era, the age of AI, the autonomous enterprise. Folks, thanks very much for a great segment, really appreciate it. >> Yeah, our pleasure, thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> You're welcome, all right, and thank you. And keep it right there, we'll be right back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of the rebirth of Oracle Consulting. We'll be right back. (upbeat electronic music)