>> Speaker: From around the Globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, how you doing? Welcome to DockerCon. We're kind of halfway through now, I guess. Thank you for joining us on this session. So my name is Elton, I'm a Docker Captain. And I'm joined by Julie who was also a Docker Captain. This is actually this session was Julie's idea. We were talking about this learning of Docker and how it's a light bulb moment for lots of people. But Julie, she came up with this great idea for DevOps. So I'll let Julie introduce herself, and tell you a bit about what we're going to talk about. >> Thanks, Elton. So I'm Julie Lerman. I'm a Software Coach. I'm a developer. I've been a developer for over 30 years. I work independently and I'm a Docker captain. Also a Microsoft Regional Director. I wouldn't let them put it on there, because it makes people think I work for Microsoft but I don't. (he laughs) >> Yeah, so it's a weird title. So the Microsoft ID the Regional Director, it's like a kind of Uber, MVP. So I'm an MVP. And that's fine. That's just like a community recognition, just like you get with a Docker captain. So MVP is kind of like the micro version, Julie's MVP too. But then you get the Regional Director which is something that MVP get. >> Doesn't matter. >> I'm not surprised Julie. >> Stop, a humble man. (he laughs) >> We've been using Docker for years 10 years between. >> You probably, how long ago was your Docker aha moment? >> So 2014 I first started using Docker, so I was working on a project, where I was assaulting for a team who were building an Android tablet, and they were building the whole thing, so they Spec out the tablet, they got a bill over in the far East. They were building their own OS their own app to run on and of course all that stacks within it. But they was all talking to the services that were running in the power they wanted to use as your for that and .NET that was on-prem, though that technology historically . So I came in to do the .NET stuff is running in as your, but I got really friendly with the Linux guys. It was very DevOps, it was one team who did the whole thing. And they were using Docker for that their build tools, and for have the and the CI tools, and they were running their own get server and it was all in. >> Already until 2014. That's pretty cool. >> Yeah, pretty early introduction to it. And it was super cool. So I'd always been interested in Linux, but never really dug into it. Because the entry bar was so high runs nothing in it. So you read about this great open source project, and then you go and look at the documentation and you have to download the source code and build it and it's like, well, I'm not going to be doing that stuff. And then Docker came along. I do Docker run. (he laughs) >> Well, I would say it was a little definitely delayed from that. I'm still thinking Wait, when you first started saying that this company was building their own android system, you start thinking, they're building software, but no, they weren't building everything, which is pretty amazing. So, I have to say it took me quite a while, but I was also behind on understanding virtual machines. (both laughs) So, Docker comes along, and I have lots of friends who are using it, I spent a lot of time with Michelle Noorali this Monday, and she's big container person. And most of the people I hear talking about Docker are really doing DevOps, which is not my thing. As a developer, I always just said, let somebody else do that stuff. I want to code an architect and do things like that. And I also do a lot of data work. I'm not like a big data person doing analytics. Or I'm not a DBA. I'm more very involved in getting data in and out of applications. So my aha moment, I would say was like, four years ago, after Microsoft moved SQL Server over to Linux, and then put it inside a Docker image. So that was my very first experience, just saying, oh, what does this do and I downloaded the image. And Docker run. And then like literally I was like, holy smokes. SQL Servers already installed. The containers up like that, and then it's got to run a couple of Bashan SQL scripts to get all the system tables, and databases and things like that. So that's another 15 seconds. But that was literally for me. The not really aha, it was more like OMG, and I'll keep the EFF out just to keep it clean here. It was my OMG moment with Docker. So getting that start, then I worked with the SQL Server image and container and did some different things, with that in applications. And then eventually, expanded my knowledge out bit by bit, and got a deeper understanding of it and tried more things. So I get to a comfort level and then add to it and add to it. >> Yeah. And I think that the great thing about that is that as you're going on that journey that aha moments keep coming, along we had another aha moment this week, with the new announcement that you can use your Docker compose files, and use your Docker commands to spin stuff up running in as your container instances. So like that you've kept up that learning journey is there if you want to go down, How do I take my monolithic application, and break up into pieces and run those in containers? Like suddenly the fact that you can just glue all these things together in run it on one platform, and manage everything in the same way? And these light bulbs keep on coming. So, you've seen the modernization things that people are doing that's a lot of the work that I do now, and taking these big applications, you just write a Docker file, and you've got your 15 year old .NET application running in the container. And you can run that in the cloud with no changes to code, and not see them. But that's super powerful for people. >> And I think one of the really important things, especially for people like you and I, who are also teachers, and is to try to really remember that moment, because I know a lot of times, when people are deeply expert in something it they forget how hard it was, or what it felt like not to understand it that context. So I still have held on to that. So when I talk, I like to do introduction, I like to help people get that aha moment. And then I say, Okay, now go on to the, they're really expert people. You're ready to learn more, but it's really important to especially, maybe we're teachers, conference speakers, book authors, pluralsight, etc. But lots of other people, who are working on teams they might already be somebody who's gotten there with Docker, and they want to help their teammates understand Docker. So I think it's really important to, for everybody who wants to share that to kind of have a little empathy, and remember what that was like, and understand that sometimes it just takes explaining it a different way explaining maybe, just tweaking your expression, or some of the words or your analogies. >> Yeah, that's definitely true. And you often find this it's a technology, that people really become affectionate for, they have a real deep feeling for documents, once they start using it, and you get these internal champions in companies who say, "This is the stuff I've been using, I've been using this at home or whatever." And they want to bring it into their project, and it's pretty cool to be able to say to them this is, take me on the same journey that you've been on, or you've been on a journey, which was probably slightly more investment for you, because you had to learn from scratch. But now you can relay that back into your own project. So you can take, you don't have to take everyone from scratch like you did. You can say, here's the Docker file for our own application. This is how it works. And bringing things into the terms that people are using everyday , I think is something that's super powerful. Why because you're completely strange. (he laughs) >> Oh, I was being really cool about your video. (both laughs) Maybe it's just how it streaming back to me. I think the teacher thing again, like we'll work a little harder and, bump our knees and stub our toes, or tear our hair out or whatever pain we have to go through, with that learning because, it's also kind of obsessive. And you can steer people away from those things, although it's also helpful to let them be aware like this might happen, and if it does, it's because of this. But that's not the happy path. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think, it's really interesting talking to people about the time you're trying to get to what problem are they trying to solve? It's interesting, you talk about DevOps there, and how that sort of not an area, that you've done a lot of stuff in. Writing a couple of organizations, whether they're really trying hard to move that model, and trying to break down the barriers, between the team who build the software, and the team who run the software, but they have those barriers, but 20 years, it's really hard to write that stuff down. And it's a big cultural shift, it needs a lot of investment. But if you can make a technological change as well, if you can get people using the same tools, the same languages, the same processes to do things, that makes it so much easier. Like now my operators are using Docker files, on there and the security team are going into the Docker file and cozening it, or DevOps team or building up my compose file, and everyone's using the same thing, it really helps a lot, to bind people together to work on the same area. >> I also do a lot of work in domain Dave Vellante design, and that whole idea of collaboration, and bringing together teams, that don't normally work together, and bringing them together, and enabling them to find a way to collaborate giving them tools for collaboration, just like what you're saying with, having the same terms and using the same tools. So that's really powerful. You gave me a great example of one of your clients, aha moments with Docker. Do you remember which that was? The money yes, it's a very powerful Aha. >> Yes. >> She cherish that. >> The company that I've worked for before, when I was doing still get thought that I can sort a thing, and they knew I'd go into containers. I was working for Docker at the time. And I went in just as if I wasn't a sales pitch or anything, I was just as a favor to talk to them about what containers would look like if payments, their operation, big heavy Windows users, huge number of environment, lots of VMs that are all running stuff, to get the isolation, and give them what they needed. And I did this presentation of IT. So it wasn't a technical thing. It was very high level, it was about how containers kind of work. And I'm fundamentally a technical person, so I probably have more detail in there. And then you would get from a sales pitch, but it was very much about, you can take your applications, you can wrap them up the running these things for containers, you still get the isolation, you can run loads more of them on the same hardware that you've got, and you don't pay a Windows license each of those containers, you pay a license for the server that the right one. >> That's it, that's the moment. >> And the head of IT said that's going to save us millions of dollars. (he laughs) And that was his aha moment. >> I'm going to wrap that into my conference session, about getting to the Docker, for sure getting that aha moment. My experience is less that but wow, I mean, that's so powerful. When you're talking to come C level people about making those kinds of changes, because you need to have their buy in. So as a developer and somebody who works with developers, and that's kind of my audience, my experience more has been, when I'm giving conference presentations, and I'll start out in a room of people, and I have to say, when I'm at .NET focus conference, I find that the not there yet with Docker. Part of the audience is a big one. So I kind of do a poll at the beginning of the talk. Who's heard of Docker, obviously, they're in the room, but curious because you still don't really understand it. And that's usually a bulk of the room. And what I like to ask at the end is, of all of you that, that first group, like, do you feel like you get it now, like you just get what it is and what it does, as opposed to I don't know what this thing is. It's for rocket scientists. Is that's how I felt about it. I was like, I'm just a developer. It wasn't my thing. But now, I'm still not doing DevOps, I use Docker as a really important tool, during development and test and that's actually one of it I'm going to be talking about that. But it's my session a little later. Oh, like the next hour. It's about using Docker, that my aha Docker, SQL Server, in an image and but using that in Dave Vellante, it's not about the DevOps and the CI/CD and Kubernetes, I can spell it. (he laughs) Especially when I get to say k eight s, Like I even know the cool Lingo (mumbles) on Twitter. (he laughs) >> I think that's one of the cool things about this technology stack in particular, I think to get the most out of it, you need to dig in really light if you want to, if you're looking at doing this stuff in production, if you're attracted by the fact that I can have a managed container platform in anytime. And I can deploy my app, everywhere using the same set of things that compose files or humidity files or whatever. And if you really want to take advantage of that, you kind of have to get down to the principles understand all go on a proper kind of learning journey. But if you don't want to do that, you can kind of stop wherever it makes sense for you. So like even when I'm talking to different audiences, is a lot strangely enough, I did a pool size large bin this morning. It was quite a specific topic. It was about building applications in containers. So is about using containers, to compile your app and then package it, so you can build anywhere. But even a session like that, the first maybe two minutes, I give a lightning quick overview, of what containers are and how you use them. Here's exactly like you say, people will come to a session, if it's got Docker or humanities in the title. But if they don't have the entry requirements. They've never really used this stuff. And we were up here and it's a big dump for them. So I try and always have that introductory slide. >> I had to do that on the fly. >> Sorry. >> I've done that on the fly in conference, because yes, doing like, ASP.NET Core with Entity Framework and containers. And, 80% of the room, really didn't know anything about Docker. So, instead of talking like five minutes about Docker and then demoing the rest, I ended up spending more time talking about Docker, to make sure everybody was really you could tell that difference when they're like oh, like that they understood enough, in order to be follow along and understand the value of what it was that I was there to show, about it in that core, I'm also this is making me remember that first time I actually use Docker compose, because it was a while, I was just using the SQL Server, Docker image, in on my development machine for quite a while. And because I wasn't deploying, I was learning and exploring and so I was on my development machine, so I didn't need to do anything else. So the first time I really started orchestrating, that was yet another aha moment. But I was ready for it then. I think you know if you start with Docker compose and you don't haven't done the other, maybe I would write but I was ready, because I'd already gotten used to using the tooling and, really understanding what was going on with containers. Then that Docker compose was like yeah. (he laughs) >> It's just the next one, in the line is a great comment actually in the chat about someone in the chat. >> From chat? >> Yeah, from Steve saying, that he could see there would be an aha moment for his about security. And actually that's absolutely, it's so when security people, first want to get their head around containers, they get worried that if someone can compromise the app in the container, they might get a break out, and get to all the other containers. And suddenly, instead of having one VM compromised, you have 100 containers compromised. But actually, when you dig into it so much easier to get this kind of defense in depth, when you're building in containers, because you have your tape on an image that's owned by your team who produced the path, whether or not they will have their own images, that are built with best practices. You can sign your images, through your platform doesn't run anything that isn't signed, you have a full history of exactly what's in the source code is what's in production, there's all sorts of, ways you can layer on security that, attract that side of the audience. >> I've been looking at you this whole time, and like I forgot about the live chat. There's the live chat. (he laughs) There's Scott Johnston in live chat. >> Yes. >> People talking about Kubernetes and swarm. I'm scrolling through quickly to see if anybody's saying, well, my aha moment was. >> There was a good one. What was this one from Fatima earlier on, Maya was pointing out with almost no configuration onto a VM, and couldn't believe it never looked back on us. >> Yeah. >> That's exactly, on one command, if your image is mostly built, SaaS has some sensible defaults, it just all works. And everyone's (mumbles). >> Yeah, and the thing that I'm doing in my session is, what I love. the fact that for development team, Development Testing everybody on the team, and then again on up the pipeline to CI/CD. It's just a matter of, not only do you have your SaaS code, but in your SaaS code, you've got your Docker compose, and your Docker compose just makes sure, that you have the development environment that you need, all the frame, everything that you need is just there, without having to go out and find it and install it. >> There were no gap in a development environment with CI build the production. So I'm hearing, you don't hear but I can hear that we need to wrap up. >> Oh, yeah. >> Get yourself prepared for your next session, which everyone should definitely, I'll be watching everyone else do. So thanks everyone for joining. Thanks, Julie for a great idea for a conversation, was about 4050 we'll have a beer with and I would, I would Yeah. >> Yeah, we live many thousands of miles away from one another. >> Well, hopefully next year, there will be a different topic on how we can all meet some of you guys. >> And I do need to point out, the last time we were together, Elton, I got a copy of Alan's book and he signed it. (both laughs) And we took a picture of it. >> There are still more books on the stand >> Yeah, I know that's an old book, but it's the one that you signed. Thank you so much. >> Thanks everyone for joining and we'll enjoy the rest of the topic home. >> Bye. (soft music)