(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this CUBE conversation. I am Lisa Martin, excited to welcome back one of our distinguished alumni, Derek Manky joins me next. Chief security Insights and Global Threat Alliances at Fortinet's FortiGuard Labs. Derek, welcome back to the program. >> Yes, it's great to be here and great to see you again, Lisa. Thanks for having me. >> Likewise, yeah, so a lot has happened. I know we've seen you during this virtual world, but so much has happened with ransomware in the last year. It's unbelievable, we had this dramatic shift to a distributed workforce, you had personal devices on in network perimeters and non-trusted devices or trusted devices on home networks and lots of change there. Talk to me about some of the things that you and FortiGuard Labs have seen with respect to the evolution of ransomware. >> Yeah, sure, so it's becoming worse, no doubt. We highlighted this in our Threat Landscape Report. If we just take a step back looking at ransomware itself, it actually started in the late 1980s. And it didn't, that was very, they relied on snail mail. It was obviously there was no market for it at the time. It was just a proof of concept, a failed experiment if you will. But it really started getting hot a decade ago, 10 years ago but the technology back then wasn't the cryptography they're using, the technique wasn't as strong as easily reversed. And so they didn't really get to a lot of revenue or business from the cyber criminal perspective. That is absolutely not the case today. Now they have very smart cryptography they're experts when say they, the cyber criminals at their game. They know there's a lot of the attack surfaces growing. There's a lot of vulnerable people out there. There's a lot of vulnerable devices. And this is what we saw in our threat landscape group. What we saw at seven times increase in ransomware activity in the second half of 2020. And that momentum is continuing in 2021. It's being fueled by what you just talked about. By the work from anywhere, work from home environment a lot of vulnerable devices unpatched. And these are the vehicles that the ransomware is the payload of course, that's the way that they're monetizing this. But the reality is that the attack surface has expanded, there's more vulnerable people and cyber criminals are absolutely capitalizing on that. >> Right, we've even seen cyber criminals capitalizing on the pandemic fears with things that were around the World Health Organization or COVID-19 or going after healthcare. Did you see an uptick in healthcare threats and activities as well in the last year? >> Yeah, definitely, so I would start to say that first of all, the... Nobody is immune when it comes to ransomware. This is such again, a hot target or a technique that the cybercriminals are using. So when we look at the verticals, absolutely healthcare is in the top five that we've seen, but the key difference is there's two houses here, right? You have what we call the broad blanketed ransomware attacks. So these aren't going after any particular vertical. They're really just trying to spray as much as they can through phishing campaigns, not through... there's a lot of web traffic out there. We see a lot of things that are used to open playing on that COVID-19 theme we got, right? Emails from HR or taxes and scams. It's all related to ransomware because these are how they're trying to get the masses to open that up, pay some data sorry, pay some cryptocurrency to get access to their data back. Oftentimes they're being held for extortions. They may have photos or video or audio captures. So it's a lot of fear they're trying to steal these people but probably the more concern is just what you talked about, healthcare, operational technology. These are large business revenue streams. These are take cases of targeted ransoms which is much different because instead of a big volumetric attack, these are premeditated. They're going after with specific targets in mind specific social engineering rules. And they know that they're hitting the corporate assets or in the case of healthcare critical systems where it hurts they know that there's high stakes and so they're demanding high returns in terms of ransoms as well. >> With respect to the broad ransomware attacks versus targeted a couple of questions to kind of dissect that. Are the targeted attacks, are they in like behind the network firewall longer and faster, longer and getting more information? Are they demanding higher ransom versus the broader attacks? What's what are some of the distinctions there besides what you mentioned? >> Yeah, absolutely so the targeted texts are more about execution, right? So if we look at the attack chain and they're doing more in terms of reconnaissance, they're spending more cycles and investment really on their end in terms of weaponization, how they can actually get into the system, how they can remain undetected, collecting and gathering information. What we're seeing with groups like Ragnar Locker as an example, they're going in and they're collecting in some cases, terabytes of information, a lot, they're going after definitely intellectual property, things like source code, also PII for customers as an example, and they're holding them. They have a whole business strategy and plan in mind on their place, right? They hold them for ransom. They're often, it's essentially a denial of service in some cases of taking a revenue stream or applications offline so a business can't function. And then what they're doing is that they're actually setting up crime services on their end. They, a lot of the the newest ransom notes that we're seeing in these targeted attacks are setting up channels to what they call a live chat support channel that the victim would log into and actually talk directly live to the cybercriminal or one of their associates to be able to negotiate the ransom. And they're trying to have in their point of view they're trying frame this as a good thing and say, we're going to show you that our technology works. We can decrypt some of the files on your system as an example just to prove that we are who we say we are but then they go on to say, instead of $10 million, we can negotiate down to 6 million, this is a good deal, you're getting 30% off or whatever it is but the fact is that they know by the time they've gotten to this they've done all their homework before that, right? They've done the targets, they've done all the things that they can to know that they have the organization in their grasp, right? >> One of the things that you mentioned just something I never thought about as ransomware as a business, the sophistication level is just growing and growing and growing and growing. And of course, even other bad actors, they have access to all the emerging technologies that the good guys do. But talk to me about this business of ransomware because that's what it seems like it really has become. >> Absolutely, it is massively sad. If you look at the cybercrime ecosystem like the way that they're actually pulling this off it's not just one individual or one cyber crime ring that, let's say five to 10 people that are trying to orchestrate this. These are big rings, we actually work closely as an example to, we're doing everything from the FortiGuard Labs with following the latest ransomware trends doing the protection and mitigation but also working to find out who these people are, what are their tactics and really attribute it and paint a picture of these organizations. And they're big, we worked on some cases where there's over 50 people just in one ransomware gang. One of the cases we worked on, they were making over $60 million US in three months, as an example. And in some cases, keep in mind one of these targeted attacks like in terms of ransom demands and the targeted cases they can be an excess of $10 million just for one ransom attack. And like I said, we're seeing a seven times increase in the amount of attack activity. And what they're doing in terms of the business is they've set up affiliate marketing. Essentially, they have affiliates in the middle that will actually distribute the ransomware. So they're basically outsourcing this to other individuals. If they hit people with their ransomware and the people pay then the affiliate in the middle will actually get a commission cut of that, very high, typically 40 to 50%. And that's really what's making this lucrative business model too. >> Wow, My jaw is dropping just the sophistication but also the different levels to which they've put a business together. And unfortunately, for every industry it sounds very lucrative, so how then Derek do organizations protect themselves against this, especially knowing that a lot of this work from home stuff is going to persist. Some people want to stay home, what not. The proliferation of devices is only going to continue. So what are organizations start and how can you guys help? >> Start with the people, so we'll talk about three things, people, technology and processes. The people, unfortunately, this is not just about ransomware but definitely applies to ransomware but any attack, humans are still often the weakest link in terms of education, right? A lot of these ransomware campaigns will be going after people using nowadays seems like tax themes purporting to be from the IRS as an example or human resources departments or governments and health authorities, vaccination scams all these things, right? But what they're trying to do is to get people to click on that link, still to open up a malicious attachment that will then infect them with the ransomware. This of course, if an employee is up to date and hones their skills so that they know basically a zero trust mentality is what I like to talk about. You wouldn't just invite a stranger into your house to open a package that you didn't order but people are doing this a lot of the times with email. So really starting with the people first is important. There's a lot of free training information and security. There is awareness training, we offer that at Fortinet. There's even advanced training we do through our NSC program as an example. But then on top of that there's things like phishing tests that you can do regularly, penetration testing as well, exercises like that are very important because that is really the first line of defense. Moving past that you want to get into the technology piece. And of course, there's a whole, this is a security fabric. There's a whole array of solutions. Like I said, everything needs to be integrated. So we have an EDR and XDR as an example sitting on the end point, cause oftentimes they still need to get that ransomware payload to run on the end point. So having a technology like EDR goes a long way to be able to detect the threat, quarantine and block it. There's also of course a multi-factor authentication when it comes to identifying who's connecting to these environments. Patch management, we talk about all the time. That's part of the technology piece. The reality is that we highlight in the threat landscape report the software vulnerabilities that these rats more gangs are going after are two to three years old. They're not breaking within the last month they're two to three years old. So it's still about the patch management cycle, having that holistic integrated security architecture and the fabric is really important. NAC network access control is zero trust, network access is really important as well. One of the biggest culprits we're seeing with these ransom attacks is using IOT devices as launchpads as an example into networks 'cause they're in these work from home environments and there's a lot of unsecured or uninspected devices sitting on those networks. Finally process, right? So it's always good to have it all in your defense plan training and education, technology for mitigation but then also thinking about the what if scenario, right? So incident response planning, what do we do if we get hit? Of course we never recommend to pay the ransom. So it's good to have a plan in place. It's good to identify what your corporate assets are and the likely targets that cyber-criminals are going to go after and make sure that you have rigid security controls and threat intelligence like FortiGuard Labs applied to that. >> Yeah, you talk about the weakest link they are people I know you and I talked about that on numerous segments. It's one of the biggest challenges but I've seen some people that are really experts in security read a phishing email and almost fall for it. Like it looked so legitimately from like their bank for example. So in that case, what are some of the things that businesses can do when it looks so legitimate that it probably is going to have a unfortunately a good conversion rate? >> Yeah, so this is what I was talking about earlier that these targeted attacks especially when it comes to spear, when it comes to the reconnaissance they got so clever, it can be can so realistic. That's the, it becomes a very effective weapon. That's why the sophistication and the risk is rising like I said but that's why you want to have this multilayered approach, right? So if that first line of defense does yield, if they do click on the link, if they do try to open the malicious attachment, first of all again through the next generation firewall Sandboxing solutions like that, this technology is capable of inspecting that, acting like is this, we even have a FortiAI as an example, artificial intelligence, machine learning that can actually scan this events and know is this actually an attack? So that element goes a long way to actually scrub it like content CDR as well, content disarm as an example this is a way to actually scrub that content. So it doesn't actually run it in the first place but if it does run again, this is where EDR comes in like I said, at the end of the day they're also trying to get information out of the network. So having things like a Platinum Protection through the next generation firewall like with FortiGuard security subscription services is really important too. So it's all about that layered approach. You don't want just one single point of failure. You really want it, this is what we call the attack chain and the kill chain. There's no magic bullet when it comes to attackers moving, they have to go through a lot of phases to reach their end game. So having that layer of defense approach and blocking it at any one of those phases. So even if that human does click on it you're still mitigating the attack and protecting the damage. Keep in mind a lot of damages in some cases kind of a million dollars plus. >> Right, is that the average ransom, 10 million US dollars. >> So the average cost of data breaches that we're seeing which are often related to ransom attacks is close to that in the US, I believe it's around just under $9 million about 8.7 million, just for one data breach. And often those data breaches now, again what's happening is that the data it's not just about encrypting the data, getting access because a lot of organizations part of the technology piece and the process that we recommend is backups as well of data. I would say, organizations are getting better at that now but it's one thing to back up your data. But if that data is breached again, cybercriminals are now moving to this model of extorting that saying, unless you pay us this money we're going to go out and make this public. We're going to put it on paste and we're going to sell it to nefarious people on the dark web as well. >> One more thing I want to ask you in terms of proliferation we talked about the distributed workforce but one of the things, and here we are using Zoom to talk to each other, instead of getting to sit together in person we saw this massive proliferation in collaboration tools to keep people connected, families businesses. I talked a bit a lot of businesses who initially will say, oh we're using Microsoft 365 and they're protecting the data while they're not or Salesforce or Slack. And that shared responsibility model is something that I've been hearing a lot more about lately that businesses needing to recognize for those cloud applications that we're using and in which there's a lot of data traversing it could include PII or IP. We're responsible for that as the customer to protect our data, the vendor's responsible for protecting the integrity of the infrastructure. Share it with us a little bit about that in terms of your thoughts on like data protection and backup for those SaaS applications. >> Yeah, great question, great question tough one. It is so, I mean ultimately everybody has to have, I believe it has to have their position in this. It's not, it is a collaborative environment. Everyone has to be a stakeholder in this even down to the end users, the employees being educated and up-to-date as an example, the IT departments and security operation centers of vendors being able to do all the threat intelligence and scrubbing. But then when you extend that to the public cloud what is the cloud security stack look at, right? How integrated is that? Are there scrubbing and protection controls sitting on the cloud environments? What data is being sent to that, should it be cited center as an example? what's the retention period? How long does the data live on there? It's the same thing as when you go out and you buy one of these IOT devices as an example from say, a big box store and you go and just plug it into your network. It's the same questions we should be asking, right? What's the security like on this device model? Who's making it, what data is it going to ask for me? The same thing when you're installing an application on your mobile phone, this is what I mean about that zero trust environment. It should be earned trust. So it's a big thing, right? To be able to ask those questions and then only do it on a sort of need to know and medium basis. The good news is that a lot of CloudStack now and environments are integrating security controls. We integrated quite well with Fortinet as an example but this is an issue of supply chain. It's really important to know what lives upstream and how they're handling the data and how they're protecting it absolutely. >> Such interesting information and it's a topic ransomware that we could continue talking about, Derek, thank you for joining me on the program today updating us on what's going on, how it's evolving and ultimately what organizations in any industry need to do with protecting people and technology and processes to really start reducing their risks. I thank you so much for joining me today. >> All right it's a pleasure, thank you. >> Likewise Derek Manky I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this CUBE conversation. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this CUBE conversation. I am Lisa Martin, excited to welcome back one of our distinguished alumni, Derek Manky joins me next. Chief security Insights and Global Threat Alliances at Fortinet's FortiGuard Labs. Derek, welcome back to the program. >> Yes, it's great to be here and great to see you again, Lisa. Thanks for having me. >> Likewise, yeah, so a lot has happened. I know we've seen you during this virtual world, but so much has happened with ransomware in the last year. It's unbelievable, we had about 14 months ago, this dramatic shift to a distributed workforce, you had personal devices on in network perimeters and non-trusted devices or trusted devices on home networks and lots of change there. Talk to me about some of the things that you and FortiGuard Labs have seen with respect to the evolution of ransomware. >> Yeah, sure, so it's becoming worse, no doubt. We highlighted this in our Threat Landscape Report. If we just take a step back looking at ransomware itself, it actually started in the late 1980s. And it didn't, that was very, they relied on snail mail. It was obviously there was no market for it at the time. It was just a proof of concept, a failed experiment if you will. But it really started getting hot a decade ago, 10 years ago but the technology back then wasn't the cryptography they're using, the technique wasn't as strong as easily reversed. And so they didn't really get to a lot of revenue or business from the cyber criminal perspective. That is absolutely not the case today. Now they have very smart cryptography they're experts when say they, the cyber criminals at their game. They know there's a lot of the attack surfaces growing. There's a lot of vulnerable people out there. There's a lot of vulnerable devices. And this is what we saw in our threat landscape group. What we saw at seven times increase in ransomware activity in the second half of 2020. And that momentum is continuing in 2021. It's being fueled by what you just talked about. By the work from anywhere, work from home environment a lot of vulnerable devices unpatched. And these are the vehicles that the ransomware is the payload of course, that's the way that they're monetizing this. But the reality is that the attack surface has expanded, there's more vulnerable people and cyber criminals are absolutely capitalizing on that. >> Right, we've even seen cyber criminals capitalizing on the pandemic fears with things that were around the World Health Organization or COVID-19 or going after healthcare. Did you see an uptick in healthcare threats and activities as well in the last year? >> Yeah, definitely, so I would start to say that first of all, the... Nobody is immune when it comes to ransomware. This is such again, a hot target or a technique that the cybercriminals are using. So when we look at the verticals, absolutely healthcare is in the top five that we've seen, but the key difference is there's two houses here, right? You have what we call the broad blanketed ransomware attacks. So these aren't going after any particular vertical. They're really just trying to spray as much as they can through phishing campaigns, not through... there's a lot of web traffic out there. We see a lot of things that are used to open playing on that COVID-19 theme we got, right? Emails from HR or taxes and scams. It's all related to ransomware because these are how they're trying to get the masses to open that up, pay some data sorry, pay some cryptocurrency to get access to their data back. Oftentimes they're being held for extortions. They may have photos or video or audio captures. So it's a lot of fear they're trying to steal these people but probably the more concern is just what you talked about, healthcare, operational technology. These are large business revenue streams. These are take cases of targeted ransoms which is much different because instead of a big volumetric attack, these are premeditated. They're going after with specific targets in mind specific social engineering rules. And they know that they're hitting the corporate assets or in the case of healthcare critical systems where it hurts they know that there's high stakes and so they're demanding high returns in terms of ransoms as well. >> With respect to the broad ransomware attacks versus targeted a couple of questions to kind of dissect that. Are the targeted attacks, are they in like behind the network firewall longer and faster, longer and getting more information? Are they demanding higher ransom versus the broader attacks? What's what are some of the distinctions there besides what you mentioned? >> Yeah, absolutely so the targeted texts are more about execution, right? So if we look at the attack chain and they're doing more in terms of reconnaissance, they're spending more cycles and investment really on their end in terms of weaponization, how they can actually get into the system, how they can remain undetected, collecting and gathering information. What we're seeing with groups like Ragnar Locker as an example, they're going in and they're collecting in some cases, terabytes of information, a lot, they're going after definitely intellectual property, things like source code, also PII for customers as an example, and they're holding them. They have a whole business strategy and plan in mind on their place, right? They hold them for ransom. They're often, it's essentially a denial of service in some cases of taking a revenue stream or applications offline so a business can't function. And then what they're doing is that they're actually setting up crime services on their end. They, a lot of the the newest ransom notes that we're seeing in these targeted attacks are setting up channels to what they call a live chat support channel that the victim would log into and actually talk directly live to the cybercriminal or one of their associates to be able to negotiate the ransom. And they're trying to have in their point of view they're trying frame this as a good thing and say, we're going to show you that our technology works. We can decrypt some of the files on your system as an example just to prove that we are who we say we are but then they go on to say, instead of $10 million, we can negotiate down to 6 million, this is a good deal, you're getting 30% off or whatever it is but the fact is that they know by the time they've gotten to this they've done all their homework before that, right? They've done the targets, they've done all the things that they can to know that they have the organization in their grasp, right? >> One of the things that you mentioned just something I never thought about as ransomware as a business, the sophistication level is just growing and growing and growing and growing. And of course, even other bad actors, they have access to all the emerging technologies that the good guys do. But talk to me about this business of ransomware because that's what it seems like it really has become. >> Absolutely, it is massively sad. If you look at the cybercrime ecosystem like the way that they're actually pulling this off it's not just one individual or one cyber crime ring that, let's say five to 10 people that are trying to orchestrate this. These are big rings, we actually work closely as an example to, we're doing everything from the FortiGuard Labs with following the latest around some of the trends doing the protection and mitigation but also working to find out who these people are, what are their tactics and really attribute it and paint a picture of these organizations. And they're big, we're working some cases where there's over 50 people just in one ransomware gang. One of the cases we worked on, they were making over $60 million US in three months, as an example. And in some cases, keep in mind one of these targeted attacks like in terms of ransom demands and the targeted cases they can be an excess of $10 million just for one ransom attack. And like I said, we're seeing a seven times increase in the amount of attack activity. And what they're doing in terms of the business is they've set up affiliate marketing. Essentially, they have affiliates in the middle that will actually distribute the ransomware. So they're basically outsourcing this to other individuals. If they hit people with their ransomware and the people pay then the affiliate in the middle will actually get a commission cut of that, very high, typically 40 to 50%. And that's really what's making this lucrative business model too. >> Wow, My jaw is dropping just the sophistication but also the different levels to which they've put a business together. And unfortunately, for every industry it sounds very lucrative, so how then Derek do organizations protect themselves against this, especially knowing that a lot of this work from home stuff is going to persist. Some people want to stay home, what not. The proliferation of devices is only going to continue. So what are organizations start and how can you guys help? >> Start with the people, so we'll talk about three things, people, technology and processes. The people, unfortunately, this is not just about ransomware but definitely applies to ransomware but any attack, humans are still often the weakest link in terms of education, right? A lot of these ransomware campaigns will be going after people using nowadays seems like tax themes purporting to be from the IRS as an example or human resources departments or governments and health authorities, vaccination scams all these things, right? But what they're trying to do is to get people to click on that link, still to open up a malicious attachment that will then infect them with the ransomware. This of course, if an employee is up to date and hones their skills so that they know basically a zero trust mentality is what I like to talk about. You wouldn't just invite a stranger into your house to open a package that you didn't order but people are doing this a lot of the times with email. So really starting with the people first is important. There's a lot of free training information and security. There is awareness training, we offer that at Fortinet. There's even advanced training we do through our NSC program as an example. But then on top of that there's things like phishing tests that you can do regularly, penetration testing as well, exercises like that are very important because that is really the first line of defense. Moving past that you want to get into the technology piece. And of course, there's a whole, this is a security fabric. There's a whole array of solutions. Like I said, everything needs to be integrated. So we have an EDR and XDR as an example sitting on the end point, cause oftentimes they still need to get that ransomware payload to run on the end point. So having a technology like EDR goes a long way to be able to detect the threat, quarantine and block it. There's also of course a multi-factor authentication when it comes to identifying who's connecting to these environments. Patch management, we talk about all the time. That's part of the technology piece. The reality is that we highlight in the threat landscape report the software vulnerabilities that these rats more gangs are going after are two to three years old. They're not breaking within the last month they're two to three years old. So it's still about the patch management cycle, having that holistic integrated security architecture and the fabric is really important. NAC network access control is zero trust, network access is really important as well. One of the biggest culprits we're seeing with these ransom attacks is using IOT devices as launchpads as an example into networks 'cause they're in these work from home environments and there's a lot of unsecured or uninspected devices sitting on those networks. Finally process, right? So it's always good to have it all in your defense plan training and education, technology for mitigation but then also thinking about the what if scenario, right? So incident response planning, what do we do if we get hit? Of course we never recommend to pay the ransom. So it's good to have a plan in place. It's good to identify what your corporate assets are and the likely targets that cyber-criminals are going to go after and make sure that you have rigid security controls and threat intelligence like FortiGuard Labs applied to that. >> Yeah, you talk about the weakest link they are people I know you and I talked about that on numerous segments. It's one of the biggest challenges but I've seen some people that are really experts in security read a phishing email and almost fall for it. Like it looked so legitimately from like their bank for example. So in that case, what are some of the things that businesses can do when it looks so legitimate that it probably is going to have a unfortunately a good conversion rate? >> Yeah, so this is what I was talking about earlier that these targeted attacks especially when it comes to spear, when it comes to the reconnaissance they got so clever, it can be can so realistic. That's the, it becomes a very effective weapon. That's why the sophistication and the risk is rising like I said but that's why you want to have this multilayered approach, right? So if that first line of defense does yield, if they do click on the link, if they do try to open the malicious attachment, first of all again through the next generation firewall Sandboxing solutions like that, this technology is capable of inspecting that, acting like is this, we even have a FortiAI as an example, artificial intelligence, machine learning that can actually scan this events and know is this actually an attack? So that element goes a long way to actually scrub it like content CDR as well, content disarm as an example this is a way to actually scrub that content. So it doesn't actually run it in the first place but if it does run again, this is where EDR comes in like I said, at the end of the day they're also trying to get information out of the network. So having things like a Platinum Protection through the next generation firewall like with FortiGuard security subscription services is really important too. So it's all about that layered approach. You don't want just one single point of failure. You really want it, this is what we call the attack chain and the kill chain. There's no magic bullet when it comes to attackers moving, they have to go through a lot of phases to reach their end game. So having that layer of defense approach and blocking it at any one of those phases. So even if that human does click on it you're still mitigating the attack and protecting the damage. Keep in mind a lot of damages in some cases kind of a million dollars plus. >> Right, is that the average ransom, 10 million US dollars. >> So the average cost of data breaches ever seen which are often related to ransom attacks is close to that in the US, I believe it's around just under $9 million about 8.7 million, just for one data breach. And often those data breaches now, again what's happening is that the data it's not just about encrypting the data, getting access because a lot of organizations part of the technology piece and the process that we recommend is backups as well of data. I would say, organizations are getting better at that now but it's one thing to back up your data. But if that data is breached again, cybercriminals are now moving to this model of extorting that saying, unless you pay us this money we're going to go out and make this public. We're going to put it on piece and we're going to sell it to nefarious people on the dark web as well. >> One more thing I want to ask you in terms of proliferation we talked about the distributed workforce but one of the things, and here we are using Zoom to talk to each other, instead of getting to sit together in person we saw this massive proliferation in collaboration tools to keep people connected, families businesses. I talked a bit a lot of businesses who initially will say, oh we're using Microsoft 365 and they're protecting the data while they're not or Salesforce or Slack. And that shared responsibility model is something that I've been hearing a lot more about lately that businesses needing to recognize for those cloud applications that we're using and in which there's a lot of data traversing it could include PII or IP. We're responsible for that as the customer to protect our data, the vendor's responsible for protecting the integrity of the infrastructure. Share it with us a little bit about that in terms of your thoughts on like data protection and backup for those SaaS applications. >> Yeah, great question, great question tough one. It is so, I mean ultimately everybody has to have, I believe it has to have their position in this. It's not, it is a collaborative environment. Everyone has to be a stakeholder in this even down to the end users, the employees being educated and up-to-date as an example, the IT departments and security operation centers of vendors being able to do all the threat intelligence and scrubbing. But then when you extend that to the public cloud what is the cloud security stack look at, right? How integrated is that? Are there scrubbing and protection controls sitting on the cloud environments? What data is being sent to that, should it be cited center as an example? what's the retention period? How long does the data live on there? It's the same thing as when you go out and you buy one of these IOT devices as an example from say, a big box store and you go and just plug it into your network. It's the same questions we should be asking, right? What's the security like on this device model? Who's making it, what data is it going to ask for me? The same thing when you're installing an application on your mobile phone, this is what I mean about that zero trust environment. It should be earned trust. So it's a big thing, right? To be able to ask those questions and then only do it on a sort of need to know and medium basis. The good news is that a lot of CloudStack now and environments are integrating security controls. We integrated quite well with Fortinet as an example but this is an issue of supply chain. It's really important to know what lives upstream and how they're handling the data and how they're protecting it absolutely. >> Such interesting information and it's a topic ransomware that we could continue talking about, Derek, thank you for joining me on the program today updating us on what's going on, how it's evolving and ultimately what organizations in any industry need to do with protecting people and technology and processes to really start reducing their risks. I thank you so much for joining me today. >> All right it's a pleasure, thank you. >> Likewise Derek Manky I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this CUBE conversation. (upbeat music)