>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled. Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, welcome back Variety. Jeff Freak here with the Cube were Palo Alto studios. And we like to welcome you back to our continuing coverage of biz. Opps manifesto. Unveil. Exciting day to really, uh, kind of bring this out into public. There's been a little bit of conversation, but today is really the official unveiling, and we're excited to have our next guest to share a little bit more information on it. He's Patrick Tickle. He's a chief product officer for plan view. Patrick, great to see you. Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks for the invite. So why the biz? Opps manifesto? Why the bizarre coalition? Now, when you guys have been added, it's relatively mature marketplace. Business is good. What was missing? Why? Why this? Why this coalition? >>Yeah, so you know, again, Why? Why is bizarre is important. And why is this something I'm you know, I'm so excited about, but I think companies as well, right? Well, no. In some ways or another, this is a topic that I've been talking to you know the market in our customers about for a long time. And it's, you know, I really applaud, you know, this whole movement, right? And, um, it resonates with me because I think one of the fundamental flaws, frankly, of the way we have talked about technology and business literally for decades has been this idea of alignment. Those who know me, I occasionally get off on this little rant about the word alignment. Right? But to me, the word alignment is actually indicative of the of the of the flaw in a lot of our organizations. And biz ops is really, I think, now, trying to catalyze and expose that flaw, right? Because, you know, I I always say that, you know, you know, alignment implies silos right the instantaneously with soon as you say, there's alignment. There's there's obviously somebody who's got a direction and other people that have tow line up and that that kind of siloed, uh, nature of organizations. And then, frankly, the passive nature of I think so many technology organizations like look, the business has the strategy. You guys need to align right and and, you know, is a product leader right that's what I've been my whole career, right? I can tell you that I never sit around. I almost never used the word alignment, right. I mean, whether you know, I never sit down and say, you know, the product management team has to get aligned with death, right? Or the Dev team has to get aligned with the delivery and ops teams. I mean, what I say is, are we on strategy? Right? Like we have a strategy, a zey full end to end value stream, right, and that there's no silos, and I mean, look, every on any given day, we got to get better, right? But the context, the context we operate is not about alignment, right? It's about being on strategy. And I think I've talked to customers a lot about that. But when I first read the manifesto, I was like, Oh, you know, this is exactly this. Is breaking down maybe trying to eliminate the word alignment, you know, from a lot of our organizations, because we literally start thinking about one strategy and how we go from strategy to delivery and have it be our strategy, not someone else's, that we're all aligning to it. And it's a great way to catalyze. You know, that conversation that I've It's been in my mind for years, to be honest, >>right? So, so much to unpack there. One of the things, obviously, uh, stealing a lot from from Dev Ops and the Dev Ops manifesto from 20 years ago. And and as I looked through some of the principles and I looked through some of the values which are, you know, really nicely laid out here, you know, satisfied customers do continues delivery, uh, measure output against riel results. Um, the ones that that jumps out that was really about, you know, change change, right requirements should change frequently. They do change frequently, but I'm curious to get your take from A from a software development point. It's easy to kind of understand, right? We're making this widget, and our competitors made a widget plus X, and now we need to change our plans and make sure that the plus X gets added to the plan. Maybe it wasn't in the plan. You talked a lot about product strategy. So in this kind of continuous delivery world, how does that meld with? I'm actually trying to set a strategy which implies a direction for a little bit further out on the horizon. And to stay on that while at the same time you're kind of doing this real time, continual adjustments because you're not working off a giant PRD or M R d anymore. Yeah, >>totally. Yeah. You know, one of the terms you know, that we use internally a lot on even with my customers, our customers is we talked about this idea rewiring right, and I think you know. So it's kind of an analogy for transformation, and I think a lot of us have to rewire the way we think about things right. And I think it planned view where we have a lot of customers who live in that you know who operationalized that traditional ppm world right and are shifting toe agile and transforming that rewire super important and and to your point right, it's You've just you've got to embrace this idea of, you know, just iterative getting better every day and iterating iterating iterating as opposed to building annual plans. Or, you know, I get customers occasionally. Who asked me for two or three year roadmap right and I literally looked at them and I go There is No There is no scenario where I could build a two or three year roadmap. Right? You you think you want that? But that's not That's not the way we run, right. And I will tell you the biggest thing that for us, you know, that I think is matched the planning. You know, impedance is a word I like to use a lot. So the thing that we've like that we've done from a planning perspective, I think is matched impedance to continuous delivery is instituting the whole program. Implement the program in current planning capabilities and methodologies. Um, in the scaled, agile world, right. And over the last 18 months to two years, we really have now, you know, instrumented our company across three value streams. You know, we do Corley p I program increment 10 week planning, you know, And that becomes that becomes the terra firma of how we plan, right? And it's what are we doing for the next 10 weeks? And we iterated within those 10 weeks. But we also know that 10 weeks from now we're gonna we're gonna just generate again, right and that shifting of that planning model, you know, to being is cross functional. Is that as that big room planning kind of model is, um and also, you know, on that shorter increments. Um, when you get those two things in place also, the impedance really starts to match up with continuous delivery, and it changes. It changes the way you plan. And it changes the way you work, right? >>The other thing. Right. So obviously a lot of these things are kind of process driven both within the values as well as the principles. But there's a whole lot really about culture, and I just wanna highlight a couple of the values, right? We already talked about business outcomes, um, trust and collaboration, a data driven decisions and then learned responded Pivot, right. A lot of those air cultural as much as they are processed. So again, is that the Is that the need to really kind of just put them down on paper? And you know, e can't help but think of, you know, the hammer and up the thing in the Lutheran church with it with their manifesto. Is it just good to get it down? on paper, because when you read these things, you're like, Well, of course we should trust people. And, of course, we need an environment of collaboration. And, of course, we want data driven decisions. But as we all know, saying it and living it are two very, very different things. >>Yeah, good question. I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to bring that to life. You're right. And just hanging up. You know, I think we've all been through the hanging up posters around your office, which these days, right, Unless you're gonna hang a poster and everybody's home office, right, you can't even you can't even fake it that you think that might work, right? So, um, you know, you really, I think we have attacked that in a variety of ways, right? And you definitely have to, you know, you've got to make the shift to a team centric culture, right? Empowered teams. You know, that's a big deal, right? You know, a lot of a lot of the people that you know, we lived in a world of unquote where we lived in a deep resource management world for a long, long time and write a lot of our customers still do that, but, you know, kind of moving to that team centric world is eyes really important and court of the trust. I think training is super important, right? We've, you know, we've internally, right. We've trained hundreds employees over the last year and a half on the fundamentals. Really of safe, right? Not necessarily. You know, we've had we've had teams delivering and scrum and continuous delivery for, you know, for years. But this scaling aspect of it eyes where we've done a lot of training investment on Ben. You know, I think leadership has to be bought in, right, you know? And so we p I plan, you know, myself and camera and the other members are leadership, you know, we're in p I planning, you know, for for four days, right? I mean, you've gotta walk the walk, you know, from top to bottom. And you've got a train on the context, right? And then you and then and then once you get through a few cycles where you've done a pivot, right or you brought a new team in and it just works, it becomes kind of this virtuous circle where people go. Man, this really works so much better than what we used to dio, >>right? Right. Theater Really key principle to this whole thing is is aligning the business leaders and the business prioritization s so that you can get to good outcomes with the development and and the delivery, right? And we know again and kind of classic dev ops to get the Dev and the production people together so they can, you know, quickly ship code that works. Um, but adding the business person on there really puts puts a little extra responsibility that they they understand the value of a particular feature, a particular priority. Uh, they can make the trade offs and that they kind of understand the effort involved too. So, you know, bringing them into this continuous again kind of this continuous development process, Um, to make sure that things were better aligned and really better Prioritize, because ultimately, you know, we don't live in an infinite resource is situation and and people got to make tradeoffs. They gotta make decisions, is toe what goes and what doesn't go on for everything that goes right. I always say you pick one thing Okay, that's 99 other things that couldn't go. So it's really important to have you know, this you said alignment of the business priorities as well as you know, the execution within. Within the development. >>Yeah, I think that, you know, You know, I think it was probably close to two years ago, Forrester started talking about the age of the customer, right? That was like their big theme at the time, right? And I think to me what that the age of the customer actually translates to. And Mick, Mick and I are both big fans of this whole idea of the project. The product shift mixed book, you know, is a great piece on your talking assed part of the manifesto is one of the authors as well. But this shift from project to product, right? Like the age of the customer, in my opinion, the mhm, the embodiment that is the shift to a product mentality, right? And? And the product mentality, in my opinion, is what brings the business and technology teams together, right? Once, once you're focused on a customer experience is delivered through a product or service. That's when I That's when I start to go. The alignment problem goes away. Right? Because if you look at software companies, right, I mean, we run product management models with software development teams, customer success teams, right? That, you know, the software component of these products that people are building is obviously becoming bigger and bigger, you know, and in many ways, right. More more organizations, air trying to model themselves over as operationally like software companies, Right? They obviously have lots of other components in their business than just software. But I think that whole model of customer experience equaling product and then the software component of product the product is the essence of what changes that alignment equation and brings business and teams together. Because also, everyone knows what the customers experiencing, right, And that that that makes a lot of things very clear very quick, >>right? I'm just curious how far along this was as a process before, before Cove, it hit right, because serendipitous. Whatever. Right? But the sudden, you know, light switch moment. Everybody had to go work from home in March 15th. Compared to now, we're in October on. This is gonna be going on for a while and it is a new normal and whatever that whatever is gonna look like a year from now or two years from now is T v D. You know, had you guys already started on this journey because again, to sit down and actually declare this coalition and declare this manifesto is a lot different than just trying to do better within your own organization. Yeah, >>So we had started, you know, we definitely had started independently. You know, some some. You know, I think people in the community know that we we came together with a company called Link It Handful years ago. And I give John Terry, actually one of the founders link it immense credit for, you know, kind of spearheading our cultural change. And not and not because of we're just gonna be, you know, bringing agile solutions to our customers. But because, you know, he believed that it was gonna be a fundamentally better way for us to work, right. And we kind of, you know, and we started with John and built, you know, centric circles, momentum. And we've gotten to the place where now it's just part of who we are, but but I do think that you know, Cove it has. You know, I think pre Cove in a lot of companies, you know, would would adopt, you know, the would adopt digital slash agile transformation. Um, traditional industries may have done it as a reaction to disruption. Right, You know, And in many cases, though, the disruption to these traditional industries was, I would say, a product oriented company, right that probably had a larger software component, and that disruption caused a competitive issue or a customer issue that cause companies to try to respond by transforming. I think co vid, you know, all sudden flatten that out, right? We literally all got disrupted, right? And and so all of a sudden, every one of us is dealing with some degree of market uncertainty customer uncertainty on doll. So none of us are insulated from the need to be able to pivot faster, deliver incrementally, you know, and operating a different, completely more agile way. Uh, you know, Post Cove it right? >>Yeah, that's great. So again, very, very, very timely. You know, a little bit of serendipity, a little bit of planning and, you know, a zoo with all important things There's always a little bit of locking a a lot of hard work involved. So really interesting. Thank you for for your leadership, Patrick. And, you know, it really makes a statement. I think when you have a bunch of leaderships across an industry coming together and putting their name on a piece of paper, that's a line around us, um, principles and some values, which again, if you read them, who wouldn't want to get behind these? But if it takes, you know, something a little bit more formal, uh, to kind of move the ball down the field, and then I totally get it. And, uh, really great work. Thanks for Thanks for doing it. >>Oh, absolutely. No. Like I said, the first time I read it, I was like, Yeah, like you said, this is all this all makes complete sense, but just documenting it and saying it and talking about it moves the needle. I'll tell you, as a company, we were pushing really hard on, uh, you know, on our own internal strategy on diversity inclusion, right. And and like once we wrote the words down About what? You know what we aspire to be from a diversity and inclusion perspective. It's the same thing. Everybody reads the words and goes, Why wouldn't we do this right? But until you write it down and kind of have again, you know, a manifesto or a terra firma of what you're trying to accomplish, you know, Then you can rally behind right, as opposed to it being, you know, something that's everybody's got their own version of the flavor, right? And I think it's a very analogous, you know, kind of initiative. And, uh, it's happening. Both of those things right are happening across the industry these days, >>right and measure it to write and measure it. Measure, measure, get a baseline even if you don't like the measure, even if you don't like what the Even if you can argue against the math behind the measurement, measure it, and at least you could measure it again. And you've got some type of a compound that is really the only way toe to move it forward with. Patrick really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for for taking a few minutes out of your day. It's great to >>be here. It's an awesome movement, and we're glad to be part of it. All >>right. Thanks. And if you want to check out the biz ops manifesto goto biz Opps manifesto dot org's read it. You might want to sign it there for you. And thanks for tuning in on this segment. We'll continuing coverage of the bizarre manifesto unveiled here on the Cube. I'm Jeff. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, welcome back Variety. Jeff Freak here with the Cube were Palo Alto Studios, and we like to welcome you back to our continuing coverage of biz. Opps manifesto Unveil. Exciting day to really, uh, kind of bring this out into public. There's been a little bit of conversation, but today is really the official unveiling, and we're excited to have our next guest to share a little bit. More information on it. He's Patrick Tickle. He's a chief product officer for plan view. Patrick, great to see you. Yeah, >>it's great to be here. Thanks for the invite. And it's Yeah, exciting day. It's fund a great topic to talk about, right? So before we >>jump into the manifesto, let's for people that aren't as familiar with plan view. Give us kind of the quick overview of what you guys are all about. Yeah, >>so plan, view. You know, we've We've been around for 30 years. The company on we've traditionally lived. We live in the strategy to delivery space. You know, people eso all about planning and connecting that all the way to delivery. You know, historically, a lot of people know us as having lived is the best breed leader in the world of ppm or project portfolio management. But you know, what's interesting about this conversation, in some ways is over The last couple of years, we've been through a massive transformation of our own and really, you know, added the whole world of agile transformation not just to who we are internally, but to the products and solutions we offer. So we now really spanned the world of the world of strategy and work, whether it's agile, traditional, uh, in ways that we never have before. And it's a super exciting time, right? >>And it's really interesting with Cove. It obviously a lot of challenges and and still tough times and dark some dark days ahead. But there's certain businesses, certain industries that are getting a little bit of a tailwind. So I assume that's really helping you guys. As you know now, you've got remote and distributed teams that need more organization and better tooling toe actually get stuff done. So I assume you guys businesses probably little bit on an uptake over the last several months. Yeah, >>that's that is absolutely true, right? I have that conversation all the time, right? I mean, these days, you know, strategy and delivery are pretty dynamic environments, right? And not just in terms of not just in terms of setting strategy and, you know, determining how to deliver. But, I mean, with teams being completely distributed, you know, uh, it's created a whole, as we all know, right? A whole new way of working. But our tool set really is kind of built. Turns out it was kind of built for purpose, you know, for this kind of environment. And it's created, like, very, very interesting time for playing you in for all of our customers. >>Right? And I think your upper right corner in the Gartner Magic Quadrant all that good, positive stuff. And >>you've been at this for a while. >>So why the biz? Opps manifesto? Why the bizarre coalition? Now, when you guys have been at it, it's relatively mature marketplace. Business is good. What was missing? Why? Why this? Why this coalition? >>Yeah, So you know, again, Why? Why is bizarre is important. And why is this something I'm you know I'm so excited about, but I think companies as well, right? Well, no. In some ways or another, this is a topic that I've been talking to, you know, the market in our customers about for a long time. And it's, you know, I really applaud, you know, this whole movement, right? And, um, it resonates with me because I think one of the fundamental flaws, frankly, of the way we have talked about technology and business literally for decades has been this idea of alignment. Those who know me, I occasionally get off on this little rant about the word alignment. Right? But to me, the word alignment is actually indicative of the of the of the flaw in a lot of our organizations. And biz ops is really, I think, now, trying to catalyze and expose that flaw, right, because, you know, I I always say that, you know, you know, alignment implies silos right the instantaneously with soon as you say, there's alignment. There's there's obviously somebody who's got a direction and other people that have tow line up and that that kind of siloed, uh, nature of organizations and then, frankly, the passive nature of right? I think so. Many technology organizations, like look, the business has the strategy. You guys need to align, right and and, you know, as a product leader, right? That's what I've been my whole career. Right? I can tell you that I never sit around. I almost never use the word alignment, right? I mean, whether you know, I never sit down and say, you know, the product management team has to get aligned with death, right? Or the Dev team has to get aligned with the, you know, delivery and ops teams. I mean, what I say is, are we on strategy? Right? Like we we have a strategy as a as a full end to end value stream, right, and that there's no silos, and I mean, look, every on any given day, we got to get better, right? But the context, the context we operate is not about alignment, right? It's about being on strategy. And I think I've talked to customers a lot about that. But when I first read the manifesto, I was like, Oh, you know, this is exactly this is breaking down maybe trying to eliminate the word alignment, you know, from a lot of our organizations because we literally start thinking about one strategy and how we go from strategy to delivery and have it be our strategy, not someone else's, that we're all aligning to it. And it's a great way to catalyze. You know, that conversation that I've has been in my mind for years be honest, >>right? So, So much to unpack there. One of the things, obviously, uh, stealing a lot from from Dev Ops in the Dev Ops Manifesto from 20 years ago. And as I looked through some of the principles and I looked through some of the values which are, you know, really nicely laid out here, you know, satisfied customer do continues delivery measure output against riel results. Um, the the ones that that jumps out, though, is really about, you know, change change. Right requirements should change frequently. They do change frequently, but I'm curious to get your take from a from a software development point. It's easy to kind of understand, right? We're making this widget, and our competitors made a widget plus X, and now we need to change our plans and make sure that the the plus X gets added to the plan. Maybe it wasn't in the plan. You talked a lot about product strategy. So in this kind of continuous delivery world, how does that meld with? I'm actually trying to set a strategy which implies a direction for a little bit further out on the horizon. And to stay on that while at the same time you're kind of doing this real time, continual adjustments because you're not working off a giant PRD or M R D anymore? Yeah, >>totally. Yeah. You know, one of the terms you know, that we use internally a lot on even with my customers, our customers is we talked about this idea of rewiring, right, and I think you know. So it's kind of an analogy for transformation, and I think a lot of us have to rewire the way we think about things right. And I think it plan view where we have a lot of customers who live in that you know who operationalized that traditional ppm world right and are shifting toe agile and transforming that rewire super important and to your point, right, it's you've just you've got to embrace this idea of, you know, just iterative getting better every day. And Iterating Iterating Iterating as opposed to building annual plans. Or, you know, I get customers occasionally. Who asked me for two or three year roadmap? Right? And I literally looked at them and I go, There's no, there's no scenario where I could build a two or three year roadmap, right? You you think you want that? But that's not That's not the way we run, right. And I will tell you the biggest thing that for us, you know, that I think is matched the planning. You know, impedance is a word I like to use a lot. So the thing that we've like that we've done from a planning perspective, I think is matched impedance to continuous delivery is instituting the whole program. Implement the program increments, planning capabilities and methodologies. Um, in the scaled, agile world, right. And over the last 18 months to two years, we really have now, you know, instrumented our company across three value streams. You know, we do quarterly p I program increment 10 week planning, you know, And that becomes that becomes the terra firma of how we plan, right? And it's what are we doing for the next 10 weeks, and we iterated within those 10 weeks. But we also know that 10 weeks from now we're gonna we're gonna just reiterate again, right? And that shifting of that planning model, you know, to being is cross functional. Is that as that big room planning kind of model is, um And also, you know, on that shorter increments when you get those two things in place. Also, the impedance really starts to match up with continuous delivery, and it changes. It changes the way you plan, and it changes the way you work, right? Thea? Other >>thing. Right. So obviously a lot of these things, that kind of process driven both within the values as well as the principles. But there's a whole lot really about culture, and I just want to highlight a couple of the values, right? We already talked about business outcomes, um, trust and collaboration, a data driven decisions and then learned responded pivot, right. A lot of those air cultural as much as they are processed. So again, is that Is that the need to really kind of just put them down on paper? And you know e can't help but think of you know, the hammering up the thing in the Lutheran church with it with their manifesto. Is it just good to get it down on paper? Because when you read these things, you're like, Well, of course we should trust people. And, of course, we need an environment of collaboration. And, of course, we want data driven decisions. But as we all know, saying it and living it are two very, very different things. >>Yeah, good question. I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to bring that to life. You're right. And just hanging up. You know, I think we've all been through the hanging up posters around your office, which these days, right, Unless you're gonna hang a poster and everybody's home office, right, you can't even you can't even fake it that you think that might work, right? So, um, you know, you really, I think we have attacked that in a variety of ways, right? And you definitely have to, you know, you've got to make the shift to a team centric culture, right? Empowered teams. You know, that's a big deal, right? You know, a lot of a lot of the people that, you know, we lived in a world of quote unquote, where we lived in a deep resource management world for a long, long time and write a lot of our customers still do that. But, you know, kind of moving to that team centric world is eyes really important and court of the trust. I think training is super important, right? We've, you know, we've internally, right. We've trained hundreds employees over the last year and a half on the fundamentals. Really of safe, right? Not necessarily. You know, we've had we've had teams delivering and scrum and continuous delivery for, you know, for years. But this scaling aspect of it eyes where we've done a lot of training investment on Ben. You know, I think leadership has to be bought in, right, you know? And so we p I plan, you know, myself and camera and the other members are leadership, you know, we're in p I planning, you know, for for four days, right? I mean, you've gotta walk the walk, you know, from top to bottom. And you've got a train on the context, right? And then you and then and then once you get through a few cycles where you've done a pivot, right? Or you brought a new team in and it just works. It becomes kind of this virtuous circle where he will go. Man, this really works so much better than what we used to dio, >>right? Right. Theater, Really key principle to this whole thing is is aligning the business leaders and the business prioritization s so that you can get to good outcomes with the development and and the delivery right? And we know again and kind of classic dev ops to get the Dev and the production people together so they can, you know, quickly ship code that works. Um, but adding the business person on there really puts puts a little extra responsibility that they they understand the value of a particular feature, a particular priority. Uh, they can make the trade offs and that they kind of understand the effort involved too. So, you know, bringing them into this continuous again kind of this continuous development process, Um, to make sure that things were better aligned and really better Prioritize, because ultimately, you know, we don't live in an infinite resource. Is situation and and people got to make tradeoffs. They gotta make decisions, is toe what goes and what doesn't go on for everything that goes right, I would say you pick one thing. Okay, That's 99 other things that couldn't go. So it's really important to have you know, this you said alignment of the business priorities as well as you know, the execution within, Within the development. >>Yeah, I think that, you know, You know, I think it was probably close to two years ago, Forrester started talking about the age of the customer, right? That was like their big theme at the time, right? And I think to me what that the age of the customer actually translates to. And Mick, Mick and I are both big fans of this whole idea of the project. The product shift mixed book, you know, is a great piece on your talking. A za part of the manifesto is one of the authors as well. But this shift from project to product, right? Like the age of the customer, in my opinion that that the embodiment of that is the shift to a product mentality, right? And the product mentality, in my opinion, is what brings the business and technology teams together. Right once, once you're focused on a customer experience that's delivered through a product or a service, that's when I that's when I start to go. The alignment problem goes away right? Because if you look at software companies, right, I mean, we run product management models with software development teams, customer success teams, right that, you know, the software component of these products that people are building is obviously becoming bigger and bigger, you know, and in many ways, right, more, more organizations are trying to model themselves over as operationally like software companies, right? They obviously have lots of other components in their business than just software. But I think that whole model of customer experience equaling product and then the software component of product the product is the essence of what changes that alignment equation and brings business and teams together because all sudden, everyone knows what the customers experiencing right, and and that that that makes a lot of things very clear very quickly, right? >>I'm just curious how far along this waas as a process before, before Cove it hit right because serendipitous, whatever right, but the sudden, you know, light switch moment. Everybody had to go work from home in March 15th. Compared to now, we're in October on. This is gonna be going on for a while, and it is a new normal and whatever that whatever is gonna look like a year from now or two years from now is T B d. You know, had you guys already started on this journey because again, to sit down and actually declare this coalition and declare this manifesto is a lot different than just trying to do better within your own organization. Yeah, >>So we had started, you know, we definitely had started independently. You know, some some. You know, I think people in the community know that we we came together with a company called Link It Handful years ago. And I give John Terry, actually one of the founders link it immense credit for, you know, kind of spearheading our cultural change. And not and not because of, we're just gonna be, you know, bringing agile solutions to our customers. But because, you know, he believed that it was gonna be a fundamentally better way for us to work, right? And we kind of, you know, And we started with John and built, you know, centric circles momentum. And we've gotten to the place where now it's just part of who we are. But But I do think that you know, Cove it has. You know, I think pre Cove in a lot of companies, you know, would would adopt, you know, the would adopt digital slash agile transformation. Um, traditional industries may have done it as a reaction to disruption. Right, You know, and in many cases, the disruption to these traditional industries was, I would say, a product oriented company, right that probably had a larger software component, and that disruption caused a competitive issue or a customer issue that cause companies to try to respond by transforming. I think co vid, you know, all sudden flatten that out, right? We literally all got disrupted, right? And and so all of a sudden, every one of us is dealing with some degree of market uncertainty. Customer uncertainty on also, none of us are insulated from the need to be able to pivot faster, deliver incrementally, you know, and operating a different, completely more agile way. Uh, you know, Post Cove it, right? >>Yeah, that's great. So again, very, very, very timely. You know, a little bit of serendipity, a little bit of planning and, you know, a zoo with all important things. There's always a little bit of luck and a and a lot of hard work involved. So really interesting. Thank you for for your leadership, Patrick. And, you know, it really makes a statement. I think when you have a bunch of leaderships across an industry coming together and putting their name on a piece of paper, that's a line around us, um, principles and some values, Which again, if you read them, who wouldn't want to get behind these? But if it takes, you know, something a little bit more formal, uh, to kind of move the ball down the field, and then I totally get it. And, uh, really great work. Thanks for Thanks for doing it. >>No, absolutely. No. Like I said, the first time I read it, I was like, Yeah, like you said, this is all this all makes complete sense, but just documenting it and saying it and talking about it moves the needle. I'll tell you, as a company, we were pushing really hard on, uh, you know, on our own internal strategy on diversity inclusion, right? And and like once we wrote the words down About what? You know what we aspire to be from a diversity and inclusion perspective. It's the same thing. Everybody reads the words and goes, Why wouldn't we do this right? But until you write it down and kind of have again, you know, a manifesto or a terra firma of what you're trying to accomplish, you know, Then you can rally behind right, as opposed to it being, you know, something that's everybody's got their own version of the flavor, right? And I think it's a very analogous, you know, kind of initiative. And, uh, it's happening. Both of those things right are happening across the industry these days, >>right? And measure it to write and measure it. Measure, measure, get a baseline even if you don't like the measure, even if you don't like what the Even if you can argue against the math behind the measurement, measure it, and at least you could measure it again. And you've got some type of a compound that is really the only way toe to move it forward with Patrick really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for for taking a few minutes out of your day. It's great to >>be here. It's an awesome movement, and we're glad to be part of it. All >>right, Thanks. And if you want to check out the biz ops manifesto goto biz ops manifesto dot org's read it. You might want to sign it there for you. And thanks for tuning in on this segment. We'll continuing coverage of the bizarre manifesto unveiled here on the Cube. I'm Jeff. Thanks for watching.