>> from Seattle WASHINGTON. It's the Q covering AWS Imagine brought to you by Amazon Web service is >> Hey, welcome back already. Jeffrey. Here with the Cube. We're in downtown Seattle at the AWS. Imagine e do you conference? It's the second year of the conference, part of the public sector. Kind of a carve out with Andrew Coast Group. Really all about education on an education from K through 12 to higher education, community, college education, retraining of people coming out of the military. It's a huge segment, and we're really excited to have our next guest. He's going to give a keynote later this afternoon on a new pay for that he just published. So we welcome Richard Palmer, the practice leader for public sector for Open Richard, Great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> So tell us it's called reaching for the clouds. >> Yes. Look, what we found is that for many universities are moving into the cloud has proved to be difficult, that there are lots of barriers in the way and they get a part of the way along, and all of a sudden they hit a wall and it takes time. The big number that we keep looking at is only 30% of application workloads or in the cloud at this point. And after 67 years off the public cloud being available, it really suggests that there are various significant barriers. >> So what are some of those driving again? As you said, we were kind of well down this path. So whether it's just legacy stuff that's not worth moving. But I would imagine most of the new workloads are coming in. I mean, they've got to be getting with this program. >> Purchasing sess is an obvious ploy. It gets you right out of all of the problems that you had before. Look, the first thing that that bury that people find is the clouds different. So the skills that you've got in your team, the way that you were finances, your project methodologies everything is different to engage with cloud properly and the way that you design and build applications is different in the cloud. So taking a traditional organization trying to go cloud has everybody involved from the CFO with funding cycles to governance board, which are the most wonderful thing ever in higher education. Great away through to staff skills end the way that start. Think about applications. And if there's one thing in my time in hired that I saw it time and time again, it's the instant legacy problem. So somebody creates something and does it a special way because they know better than the vendor. And we had this infrastructure anyway. So why not reuse it? And they create an orphan that is neither manageable by the vendor nor manageable by the organization requires that individual to remain with the organization. We're well past their expiry date. Let's put it that way because they put things in that just unique to this single installation. And that's the transformation you see in the cloud. It's software as a service. That's it's a native thing. You don't look at how it's hosted. You don't care about anything but using it. But the danger point is in moving to infrastructure service or platforms. The service that you carry over that customization thinking right, which creates if you're like instant legacy, right s so so that that's one of the barriers that we say. >> I'm just curious because you have to really big things, you know, just the whole financing and the way you buy it, the way you budget is completely different than a big capital expenditure that you're appreciating over time. And then, as you said, the skill set. So in the enterprise space, right? Everyone's got big piles of money, and they hired the biggest size right to come help him. They have incident skills. They can bust him in by the many dozens and help them with some of that financial. How is the system integrator or the service is kind of industry evolving an education to help them make this transition. >> So they're there >> two ways and education bigger public sector enterprise has that awful problem that if you provide advice, often you can't provide. Service is we tend to beginning over that a little bit now. But the obvious way is most higher. Education institutions who have moved through that process have engaged a strategic partner to help them to plan right. That's the first piece on dhe there. There are lots of them around, and often they're very good at it, moderately expensive. But the thing that they don't tend to do as well is to find the right partners for the actual transition. So often engineers are trying thio, learn cloud technologies and apply them on and get it right the first time around. And, of course, we all know that in the experimentation you want tohave learn fast and then re learn when you you've come to something that you shouldn't have done. Great. But if engineers thrown into a life production style project, there's no time for that relearn re platform. You learn as you go, right. So having it not so much in a sigh about an implementation partners really important. And luckily, many of the the vendors or their networks are really quite good at doing those mid level implementation projects. Now it's a matter of finding the right one great, but certainly in my home Australian context for almost a LL moves the cloud. There's somebody who's who has done it several times before in education and has a good reputation. So I suspect in the U. S. That's multiplied 10 times. Larger economy is probably 10 times as many people who have done it well before, >> right? So the other piece of I'm curious if this came out right, so there's the cloud as a more efficient way to run to your infrastructure and in all that that means and cost savings. But much more importantly, in some of the things we're doing today is really to enable innovation to enable you to develop stuff faster, whether it's Alexa or some of these other things we're hearing about. I mean, how does that play in people, you know, kind of getting through the pain of getting through this process, because if you don't innovate and we just had just had somebody on before, he said. They're worried about competing with online and really having a good experience for the students on campus. Is that the driver? Is it the cost savings? Is it? How do you How do you see that kind of slicing? >> We've seen several drivers. Mum. That's most common is student success and retention that is ubiquitous in higher education to bring the cost down and to make sure that every intervention that the college or school does is meaningful and produces a positive outcome. So that's kind of the core business. And so things like analytics play into that, and now machine learning more and more the motivator. Yes, this competitive motivator but it actually works. The same for their up there on campus is their online that if you can help every student to be successful, you gain reputation. If you could do it efficiently, you drive down costs, so that's beneficial rate. But then, then you're asking about innovation. That's a step after you've put away pieces together to do core business well, right? And the key elements in doing core business well is shifting from traditional too agile. Because EJ, our projects have benefits on the business side as well as the technical side. One of the most important things is to be able in the edge. I'll space is to be able to interact quickly, and that is just a CZ. Important on the academic side is is on the technical side, because usually the academic or the administration, I don't know what they need until they've actually experienced it. Most times, when you're replacing the system, you ask the people on the front line what they want, and they answer exactly what the last system did, but better so that innovation cycle you do then measure and cycle through is part of the edge. I'll pace and the second part of it is being out to differentiate between what is actually going to make a difference for your students and what is just pure women. You know what we think might be better, but is actually gonna cost cost money, create legacy, move us away from state of practice and actually is gonna bring the benefit so really important to attach riel KP eyes to differentiating practices on get away from customization, which produces no benefit the Third Elements platforms. Once upon a time, we used to build their special systems from the code up way shouldn't do that anymore. We shouldn't be caring about what databases underneath application platforms are faster, more effective and require listen, Herr Skills to maintain a lifetime. So that's that's the third element. >> So one of the things that the Enterprise has been able to benefit from is, you know, we just leave the AARP alone, right? Just a lot of stuff. It's just not worth lifting and shifting. But, you know, it's it's kind of customer interaction applications, and there's a whole kind of class of applications that opened up the opportunity to leverage all this kind of platforms and fast, fast development, et cetera. How is that playing out on the public sector side? Because it before turning the cameras, you talked about just the pain of lift and shift, and you run into all kinds of issues. You don't get that that good, easy win that good fast win are our date. Are they thinking in terms of, you know, setting aside kind of an innovation development team that's working on some of these kind of new age things that that aren't kind of the core systems, that maybe he he don't necessarily want a lift and shift anytime soon? >> I'm a big fan of innovation teams when you're working directly with research. I'm not sure that that's the best model for mainstream innovation. It's much more useful to leverage the folks who are actually working directly with the business people like business analysts, and to shift those into thinking beyond the Monday because the business analyst usually has a very intimate relationship in the nice way with the business partner, and they can engage with what would make life better. What would make things more productive and then to quickly bring resources in behind that idea and a quick, quick proof of concept. But you've hit on another whole issue there that the idea of a ubiquitous engagement layer that both delivers a really high quality online digital student experience but also provides a whole lot of information that can be then analyzed to work out what was the best thing to do with student is really transformative, and we're seeing the best vendors move into that space, even with traditional systems and what they're doing on I'll use a couple student management system vendors is an example, without naming them but their traditional systems, they will either host them for you or you could do it on premises. But their new analysis engagement systems are cloud based, so it doesn't melt away. Your implementation is you can buy New software is a service that gives you really good analytics and a new communications collaboration. Engagement layer, often with Syria, and collaboration tools mixed in in a brand new platform, and that's really transformed it, so it allows you to keep your transactional system in place, but risk in it with the new engagement layer. And if you can clip your university service's into that engagement layer Then you get that 360 degrees view of the student with actually out having to shift major systems, right? And, as you said, that's just money spent to lift and shift the system because there's no strategic benefit except if it will lead you to upgrade for so many universities. They're stuck with an old version of the system, either because they're customized it, or they haven't got the infrastructure to host the new version or whatever it happens to be gay. So there is a strategic benefit to be able to stay with the latest version, particularly as most good vendors are providing new features pretty regularly on the most up to date. And are any doing maintenance releases for the previous version? >> It's pretty interesting that Andrew pulled out of the of the three themes for the show. You know, tomorrow's workforce roll of the melon innovation transformation that Bell got its own its own bullet point because it is such a kind of an underlying infrastructure that drives so much value across lots of applications. And and I just found it interesting that you get kind of to retrain academic institutions in the ways of big data because it's very different than maybe the way that they you grew up thinking about data, the quantity and the way that you deal with it and how much do you have and sampling of old data versus versus all the real time flow. >> So, yes, that the next generation is autonomous and whether it's self driving cars or student advisement, we're seeing the leading edge providers provide in the education space pretty much autonomous student advising there except to the point where you go out of the mainstream. But that rep erred Good advice from bots, basically. But when you get to the real world in autonomous systems, we're going to see a real shift in even the university sector off that interact with people and the environment. If you're doing self driving cars, you're talking sub millisecond responses. So that whole world of I O. T. Plus sensing technology plus Courts Campus all coming together in the next iteration and being paralleled in the service is and maybe even the academic world, that'll probably be a bit slower, but taking the same autonomous kind of thinking and moving beyond just supplementing human human transactions. >> All right, Well, Richard Thank you for taking a few minutes. Good luck on your keynote this afternoon and we'll look forward to dig it into the paper. >> It's been a pleasure. Thank you. >> Alright, He's Richard. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube. Where? Aws. Imagine CTU in downtown Seattle. Thanks for watching. See you next time.