(upbeat bright music) >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's main stage coverage of DockerCon 2022. I'm John for your host of theCUBE. We have Knox Anderson, vice president of Product Management, Sysdig. Knox, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. Glad to be back. >> So IAC containers is going crazy madness in terms of adoption, standard, even mainstream enterprise, IT and cloud are all containerized. It's only getting better, and it increases the complications when you start thinking about scale and supportability. This is a huge discussion, and it ranges from how do you support, how do you run operations, how do you secure in the supply chain. All this is happening, and with the growth of cloud and server (indistinct) seeing Kubernetes at the center of everything. So I got to ask you, how has Kubernetes changed how you secure cloud infrastructure? >> Yeah, so Kubernetes is really the modern operating system for the cloud. And with that, you get a lot of facilities. So you get things like Kubernetes' network policies, you can use things like admission controllers. And with that, you're securing multiple layers, whether it's the control plane, individual workloads. And so there's a nice mixture of built-in tools, and part of the Kubernetes platform that then you can leverage to do prevention, auditing, and things like that. But it really requires an entire rethink of your stack and the tools you bring in alongside your people and processes. And so it's an exciting time because it gives you an opportunity to be more secure, but really have to rethink your approach there. >> And I want to get into the whole observability trend here 'cause you start thinking about the mobility, what containers enables. And getting all the data is everything. And then also that feeds into kind of having a good sense of what is going on. And when you hear about shift left and data as code, you know, developers don't want to get stopped coding, right? And then have to come back and go dig into things that they thought they had taken care of. So you kind of got this kind of flywheel going in the wrong direction. So that's causing teams to be disrupted. So how do teams keep up with the changes to the containerized applications or what to prioritize around that? Because if I shift left, am I done or what? And these are the things that come up all the time. >> Yeah. You have to shift left but also watch the right. Like, shifting left is a little bit harder from a people and process perspective. Like you put a tool in place, then it's a gating factor for getting in. And so that runtime context on the right is equally as important. And it's often easier to roll out a runtime tool just because you're not going in and introducing new processes. And that runtime visibility can also make shift left much better. If you're scanning a container image, you might get a thousand different vulnerabilities that you need to address, but only three of those are in packages that are actually executed at runtime. And so we recently released a feature called risk spotlight which does that exact feedback loop. And that's something that's important whether you're addressing vulnerabilities, misconfigurations, or responding to event. What's on the right, what's on the left, and then tie those together. >> Yeah, it's like left, right, it's like driving training here in the United States. You got a stop sign, you want to be moving, always be moving. I got to ask you what are some of the side effects of infrastructure automation and the result in code artifacts? >> Yeah, it's really, like, Kubernetes is nice because it's a declarative system, but it doesn't always work out that way. Like, someone might have a Helm chart and then someone else changes it in production. So understanding what is drift is really important in these environments. And then it also has enabled real remediation workflows. I think previously, you might patch something, a week later there's a new deploy, that patch gets written over. And so because Kubernetes and the rise of IAC, it's now easier to see a misconfiguration in production, open a poll request, and then fix that at source, which provides that full kind of visibility across those different environments. And it allows you to actually fix issues versus constantly being in that kind of whack-a-mole of patching things and moving on. >> Yeah, I mean this is all about cloud native development, and you look at, you know, some of the things going on, you're starting to see best practices developed. What do you guys see as a best practice for getting started with designing and securing cloud native applications? What are some of the tools that people should look at for beginners and for the entry-level position? And then as they get traction, what does that turn into? >> Yeah, so the pattern we've often seen is like someone gets started on the open source side, whether you're using Open Policy Agent or Falco, which Laurice who've you met with before created. And so really when you're starting, choose kind of the open source option. Learn from that. And then often what we've seen with customers is at scale, there's some companies like if you're in Uber, or Snapchat, and Apple, you can maybe build something around open source, but a lot of other people start to really consolidate platforms that are built on top of those open source technologies, and trying to get that really single view into what's happening in their environment, what are those events. And the thing that I would say, process wise, is most important is build that container center of excellence, that cloud center of excellence, whatever you call it, that brings together people from your ops team, your infrastructure team, your dev team, your security team. Everyone's got to have a seat at the table to have containers be successful. It's a big shift, and if you do it right, it really takes off, but each team really needs to be included there. >> Yeah, there's a lot of operational discussions going on around the devs, and the devs are being pulled to the front lines. We've been saying this for a decade, but now when you got edge computing, you got cloud native operations, on-premises, you start to see that they're getting pulled even further to the frontline. So, you know, what are you guys up to Sysdig? You know, they got a lot of developers here at DockerCon, what's in it for them? Why Sysdig, why should they care? What would you say to the old developers that are watching? What's in it for them? >> Yeah, we really make it easier for you to prioritize what to fix and what to address in your environment. I know I've built something before and like, my test suite or my scanner just lights up like a Christmas tree, and you just want to move to another task because it's just too much to deal with at that time. And so we really help you focus on what matters and get the most bang for your buck. Everyone has way too much time or too many things going on and not enough time. And so being able to understand effective risk, your different vulnerabilities, what to fix, is really key to delivering secure software. >> I mean, it's like a doctor needs to know what to work on with the patient, if you will, when to, and what's important, and then the dependencies, and you got, a system's mindset, you got to know what the consequences. So it sounds easy, just knock down a list of things, but isn't that easy. You got to want to hit things that you know that will be, to have an impact right away. That seems to be the big aha moment here. >> Yeah, definitely. >> So we're going to be at KubeCon in Europe, you guys going to have booth there, what's the quick plug for the company? Give a shout out to what's happening at Sysdig and cloud native world. >> Yeah, really excited to be in Valencia. We have a ton of people at, sorry, at DockerCon with, giving a couple different talks here. So the first is Master Your Container Security Model and then Software Supply Chain Security and Standards. On the supply chain one, we're getting deep into SBOMs. So if that's a topic that's important to you, please join that one. >> Awesome, and then that's a big topic supply chain. We've got a minute and a half left. What's the most important thing people should pay attention to as open source continues to grow in prominence, not just from a code standpoint, but as a social environment, as people's doing ventures and venture capitalists are mining the area, what should they pay attention to as supply chain becomes important, what's the big thing? >> There's a lot of companies I think going around the SBOM space, and kind of trying to certify like where did this come from, and have that providence across the entire supply chain. We, under the hood, use those SBOMs to understand kind of what have you built, what packages are used, and then tie that with that runtime data. So a lot of the things that we talked around before with RiskSpotlight is based on that deep SBOM knowledge. And that's something that, I think the standards are still getting kind of worked out where there's CycloneDX, SBX. And so people really are saying, "Hey, I need to generate SBOMs," and we're regenerating them, but there's going to be more and more applications on "Okay what do you do with that? How does it integrate with other tools?" So it's kind of I think in the little bit of the early data lake phases where it's like, "I've taken all my data, I put it here. Now I need to do more with it." And so that's where I think we'll start to see some pretty exciting things over the next year or two. >> It's super exciting. On one hand you got the attackers, and that's a zero trust environment, and you get the builders, the developers where trust is everything. You got to know what it's in the code. It's really interesting time and super important to scale. So Knox, thanks for for coming on theCUBE and sharing the Sysdig update. Appreciate it, thanks for coming on. Now back to you at the DockerCon main stage, this is theCUBE. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is the Cube Conversation. >> Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin, excited to talk to the CEO of Styra, Bill Mann today. Bill, welcome to the Cube. >> Hi Lisa, how are you doing? >> I'm doing well. I should say welcome back. You've been on the Cube at a previous company, but we're excited to talk to you today about Styra, what's going on? So let's go ahead and start informing our audience who Styra is and what you do? >> Sure, so who Styra is and what do we do? So Styra is a company that's focused on reinventing policy and authorization in the cloud native stack. We're the company that created an open source project called Open Policy Agent, it's part of CNCF. And on top of Open Policy Agent, we built a control plane, a management plane to help organizations really put OPA into production and operationalized OPA. >> An OPA is Open Policy Agent. That's what the company actually developed with CNCF, correct? >> So, we actually founded Open Policy Agent and then we contributed Open Policy Agent to CNCF. And the real goal of contributing the Open Policy Agent to CNCF was we believe that we want to get authorization defacto in the market, right? And the only way to get something out there that everybody uses is to put it into the open source and having an entity like the CNCF supporting the project. So, really it's about getting everybody, all enterprises and vendors to use Open Policy Agent as a way of solving authorization for the cloud native environment. >> So you say Styra is reinventing policy and authorization for cloud native applications, your target audience, security folks, developer folks, what changes has cloud native brought to security and development teams? >> Sure, so what changes has cloud native brought to security and development teams? So fundamentally there've been three changes in the marketplace. One, as you know we're shifting from this monolithic architecture of building applications to now this new distributed architectures of kubernetes, microservices and Deep-coupled architecture. So fundamentally the way we build applications is fundamentally changed because everybody wants to have scale up and scale down and so forth. Second, the way we actually developed software, we've moved now to a DevOps model where we're doing more things earlier on in the cycle so we can innovate faster and we're producing code on an hourly basis versus when I joined the industry which was probably three releases a year. And then thirdly which is kind of a major topic that all of us kind of understand is our focus on privacy and security is higher than it's been before. And if these applications are going to be way more complex and more distributed and we're going to innovate faster than the way we focus on security and privacy has to be done differently as well. And if we don't do it differently, then we're going to have to all the breaches that we had in the previous generation of the app stack. >> And we don't want that, but you're right privacy and security are increasing concerns in any environment. How do you help address those and also with the thought of privacy and security are going to be concerned for quite a long time? >> Yeah, so let me take a step back. So how do we address privacy and security? So, at a fundamental level, authorization is a foundational part of security and authorization has never really been solved or re-imagined ever for the last 50 years or so. Every application developer or security vendor has built authorization into their own stack and done it in a very proprietary way. And it's been locked away within these applications and these stacks and so forth. So what happens now when you've got a highly distributed environment is that you've got so many moving parts, you still need to apply authorization. So, the way we've tackled it is by building Open Policy Agent. And there's three fundamental kind of tenants around Open Policy Agent that make it really ideal for this cloud native environment. Number one, it's policy as code and everything in the market now, everything is as code. You buy infrastructure as code. So this is now policy as code. So you can describe in a declarative model, how you want the policy for a system to be developed and you can use the language called Rego to do that. Second is the fact that all the cloud native projects out there which are all developed based upon open source technologies, kubernetes, microservices, envoy, SDO, cafco, all these kinds of buzzwords you hear in the marketplace, they all integrate with Open Policy Agent already. And then thirdly the architecture of Open Policy Agent is that it's distributed, which means that it's ideally suited for this distributed architecture for cloud native. And those are the three kind of characteristics of Open Policy Agent leading to developers loving it. And when I say they love it, we've got hundreds and thousands of users of Open Policy Agent. When you go to the CNCF shows co op con earlier this year and there's two more coming this year. There's many, many talks on it. You've got cloud vendors like Google and Microsoft adopting Open Policy Agent, got a lot of enterprises adopting Open Policy Agent. So, that's really fundamentally what we've built is we've built an authorization architecture for this new world to really address the security and privacy concerns, which have always existed and I'm going to be more exponential in this new world. >> And I think you've also built a community around OPA. Can you share a little bit of information about that and how they help with the co-development and even some of the other things that you're commercializing? >> Sure, yeah. So, now what have we done in from a community point of view with Open Policy Agents? So yeah, the community is a integral part of any open source project and we're lucky to have a great community. We've got a great community of enterprise users of Open Policy Agents and vendors as well, vendors like Microsoft and Google who are now contributing to OPA and building it up. And for me, the most important part of a community is that you learn how enterprises are using your software and they share ideas and they share use cases and you're able to innovate really, really fast. And what we've learned from that is the use cases that they use Open Policy Agent for, for instance, one of the major use cases for Open Policy Agent is for kubernetes Admission Control. So, essentially we can test the configuration of an application which is described in a file called YAML before it goes into production. So, think of it as pre-production tests, but companies are using it for microservices and applications and data and so forth. So, it helps us understand what they're using it for, but also we use it to help us develop our commercial product, which is the management control plane for OPA. So, we learn about what they're missing in the open source project that we can use to build our commercial product >> which is ready for enterprise use. >> So you've had a lot of success with OPA. Talk to me about Styra DAS and why the need for that? >> Sure, so why do we need Styra DAS recognizing that OPA is very, very successful. So, the fundamental difference is OPA is a very focused on developers and it's very focused on an environment for an individual node or cluster, but it doesn't have all the enterprise features necessary for a real enterprise to go into production. So what we notice is companies use OPA for pre-production, but when they want to go into production, they need a user interface. They need a way to author policies, distribute policies, monitor policies, do impact analysis and a whole bunch of other features and capabilities that are needed for enterprise deployments and so forth. So that's a fundamental difference between OPA and the commercial product. The commercial product is really operationalizing in OPA for an enterprise deployment. >> So the relationship between Styra and OPA seems very collaborative to me that what you just described with the commercial product of Styra DAS is really one that was developed based on what the OPA community and Styra have learned together? >> Correct, Yes. So, OPA was created by the CTO, the founders of the company saw early on several years ago, the need for distributed architectures and the need for unified policy so they left and created OPA. And from day one they wanted to get OPA into everybody's hands. That's why they contributed it to open source as part of CNCF. And then the next kind of strategy is to focus on the control apps aspects, the enterprise aspect. So yes, the same team that created OPA is the same team that's creating the Styra DAS commercial offering as well. >> So from the enterprise perspective, talk to me about some of the companies that you're talking to. I imagine any organization that's focused on cloud native, but any industry in particular that you see is really kind of leading edge right now? >> Yeah, so which industries are we talking to in terms of using Styra DAS and OPA? What we've actually found it's across the board. And we've seen in the early days that financial services and high tech were using OPA, but now it's really across the board. So it's all verticals really. And what we've noticed is any organization which is going through a cloud transformation project where they're either building new applications based upon cloud native app stacks like kubernetes and microservices and so forth or shift to the cloud are the companies that are also adopting OPA and the Styra DAS product, right? Because it's all part of the same solution set. And what we're noticing now and this is a fundamental difference is platform architects and developers are kind of prime to use these technologies. They learn about these technologies by going to the conferences and unlike the past which was very much top down selling from the sea level down, this is very much bottomed up. So developers learn about OPA from going to the conferences. They use it within their own environment and then they tell their management that, "Look, we're using OPA already. "We're missing these capabilities," or they come to us and we educate them about the Styra DAS product and so forth. So it's a very different sales model as well and that's why it's very important for ourselves and any open source company to really keep developers happy and provide a solution, that's meeting their requirements. >> On that side with so many of us and developers included working from home for the past nearly four months. We now are doing things like this virtual conversations, virtual events, how is Styra helping to continue to feed and educate those developers so that they can understand how you can impact their job functions and how they can then elevate you guys up the stack. >> Sure, so what's changed over the last three months or so in the market as a consequence of COVID-19 and from an educational point of view. So, what we've seen is fundamentally in the early days of COVID-19 everybody was kind of get the head around how to work from home and so forth, but what we've seen across the all verticals is developers have now really focused on educating themselves and just as a data point and the audience that we get to the OPA website is as high as it's ever been for the last three months. And what we're doing as a company is a lot of training sessions, video content, write-ups, blogs and so forth, right? And really helping the community learn about OPA and how to solve these kind of fundamental problems around policy and authorization within the environment. We've also been helped by the community as well. So there's been talks about a number of companies, Microsoft, Google, Palo Alto had a talk and many many companies are talking about OPA now and I love it because ultimately being an open source company and building a project which we want to become defacto, we want to raise the bar for security across the world, right? And if we can do that then it's going to be an achievement for us and it's very gratifying knowing that we're really fixing security problems for organizations because ultimately we always want to be able to use an application or a banking service and not worry about privacy and security concerns and that's ultimately what we're all after. But this is such a fundamental component that once we want to have developers learn this now because if they can incorporate this into the DevOps app stack then in future years when these applications are built and they're exposed there'll be more secure. >> And so it sounds like maybe there's even more engagement now during COVID when everybody is at home. Tell me about some of the things that are coming down the pipe for Styra in light of all of this exciting collaboration with the community. >> Sure, yeah. There's definitely been way more collaboration as a consequence of COVID-19. People are at home and they're focusing and they're going through learning sessions and browsing the website going through the video content and so forth. So what we're engaging as much as we have ever been, in fact I would argue that we're engaging even more so now, because it's just a different environment to work in. And what we're focused on now is really adding more features to the Styra DAS product, just to step back for a second, Open Policy Agent works across the cloud native stack and Styra DAS has been focused first on the kubernetes use case and now it also supports microservices as well. And then what we're continuing to do is add more of those enterprise features into Styra DAS and move up and up across the stack. But it is all driven by developers that we're talking to on a daily basis and that's leading to where the project is moving forward and the development for the roadmap and so forth. >> And Styra DAS was only launched in 2019, is that correct? >> 2019 yes, that's correct. That's correct. Yes, time flies, right? So, yes. >> A lot of change and a lot of development in a short period of time. >> That's right and 2019 was a big year for us, right? We started last 2019 with a soft launch at the RSA conference and we finished 2019 with series a funding led by Xcel. And yeah, it's great to see how the commercial product has been gaining traction in the marketplace as well as OPA as well and I think it's a combination of events. One, the fact that cloud native is now really well understood. Second, the fact that kubernetes at the beginning of 2019, it was still, "What does kubernetes mean, "is it going into production?" Now kubernetes is absolutely going into production and there's such a desire for organizations to make sure that security and policy and compliance are resolved before applications go into production otherwise we're going to have the same kind of challenges we had with previous app stacks. >> Well, the momentum is certainly with you. I can definitely hear that in your voice bell. Thank you so much for joining me talking about Styra, how you're reinventing policy and authorization for cloud native applications. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> For my guest Bill Mann, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube Conversation. Thanks for your time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is the Cube Conversation. >> Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin, excited to talk to the CEO of Styra, Bill Mann today. Bill, welcome to the Cube. >> Hi Lisa, how are you doing? >> I'm doing well. I should say welcome back. You've been on the Cube at a previous company, but we're excited to talk to you today about Styra, what's going on? So let's go ahead and start informing our audience who Styra is and what you do? >> Sure, so who Styra is and what do we do? So Styra is a company that's focused on reinventing policy and authorization in the cloud native stack. We're the company that created an open source project called Open Policy Agent, it's part of CNCF. And on top of Open Policy Agent, we built a control flame, a management plane to help organizations really put OPA into production and operationalized OPA. >> An OPA is Open Policy Agent. That's what the company actually developed with CNCF, correct? >> So, we actually founded Open Policy Agent and then we contributed Open Policy Agent to CNCF. And the real goal of contributing the Open Policy Agent to CNCF was we believe that we want to get authorization defacto in the market, right? And the only way to get something out there that everybody uses is to put it into the open source and having an entity like the CNCF supporting the project. So, really it's about getting everybody, all enterprises and vendors to use Open Policy Agent as a way of solving authorization for the cloud native environment. >> So you say Styra is reinventing policy and authorization for cloud native applications, your target audience, security folks, developer folks, what changes has cloud native brought to security and development teams? >> Sure, so what changes has cloud native brought to security and development teams? So fundamentally there've been three changes in the marketplace. One, as you know we're shifting from this monolithic architecture of building applications to now this new distributed architectures of kubernetes, microservices and Deep-coupled architecture. So fundamentally the way we build applications is fundamentally changed because everybody wants to have scale up and scale down and so forth. Second, the way we actually developed software, we've moved now to a DevOps model where we're doing more things earlier on in the cycle so we can innovate faster and we're producing code on an hourly basis versus when I joined the industry which was probably three releases a year. And then thirdly which is kind of a major topic that all of us kind of understand is our focus on privacy and security is higher than it's been before. And if these applications are going to be way more complex and more distributed and we're going to innovate faster than the way we focus on security and privacy has to be done differently as well. And if we don't do it differently, then we're going to have to all the breaches that we had in the previous generation of the app stack. >> And we don't want that, but you're right privacy and security are increasing concerns in any environment. How do you help address those and also with the thought of privacy and security are going to be concerned for quite a long time? >> Yeah, so let me take a step back. So how do we address privacy and security? So, at a fundamental level, authorization is a foundational part of security and authorization has never really been solved or re-imagined ever for the last 50 years or so. Every application developer or security vendor has built authorization into their own stack and done it in a very proprietary way. And it's been locked away within these applications and these stacks and so forth. So what happens now when you've got a highly distributed environment is that you've got so many moving parts, you still need to apply authorization. So, the way we've tackled it is by building Open Policy Agent. And there's three fundamental kind of tenants around Open Policy Agent that make it really ideal for this cloud native environment. Number one, it's policy as code and everything in the market now, everything is as code. You buy infrastructure as code. So this is now policy as code. So you can describe in a declarative model, how you want the policy for a system to be developed and you can use the language called Rego to do that. Second is the fact that all the cloud native projects out there which are all developed based upon open source technologies, kubernetes, microservices, envoy, SDO, cafco, all these kinds of buzzwords you hear in the marketplace, they all integrate with Open Policy Agent already. And then thirdly the architecture of Open Policy Agent is that it's distributed, which means that it's ideally suited for this distributed architecture for cloud native. And those are the three kind of characteristics of Open Policy Agent leading to developers loving it. And when I say they love it, we've got hundreds and thousands of users of Open Policy Agent. When you go to the CNCF shows co op con earlier this year and there's two more coming this year. There's many, many talks on it. You've got cloud vendors like Google and Microsoft adopting Open Policy Agent, got a lot of enterprises adopting Open Policy Agent. So, that's really fundamentally what we've built is we've built an authorization architecture for this new world to really address the security and privacy concerns, which have always existed and I'm going to be more exponential in this new world. >> And I think you've also built a community around OPA. Can you share a little bit of information about that and how they help with the co-development and even some of the other things that you're commercializing? >> Sure, yeah. So, now what have we done in from a community point of view with Open Policy Agents? So yeah, the community is a integral part of any open source project and we're lucky to have a great community. We've got a great community of enterprise users of Open Policy Agents and vendors as well, vendors like Microsoft and Google who are now contributing to OPA and building it up. And for me, the most important part of a community is that you learn how enterprises are using your software and they share ideas and they share use cases and you're able to innovate really, really fast. And what we've learned from that is the use cases that they use Open Policy Agent for, for instance, one of the major use cases for Open Policy Agent is for kubernetes Admission Control. So, essentially we can test the configuration of an application which is described in a file called Yammer before it goes into production. So, think of it as pre-production tests, but companies are using it for microservices and applications and data and so forth. So, it helps us understand what they're using it for, but also we use it to help us develop our commercial product, which is the management control plane for OPA. So, we learn about what they're missing in the open source project that we can use to build our commercial product which is ready for enterprise use. >> So you've had a lot of success with OPA. Talk to me about Styra DAS and why the need for that? >> Sure, so why do we need Styra DAS recognizing that OPA is very, very successful. So, the fundamental difference is OPA is a very focused on developers and it's very focused on an environment for an individual node or cluster, but it doesn't have all the enterprise features necessary for a real enterprise to go into production. So what we notice is companies use OPA for pre-production, but when they want to go into production, they need a user interface. They need a way to author policies, distribute policies, monitor policies, do impact analysis and a whole bunch of other features and capabilities that are needed for enterprise deployments and so forth. So that's a fundamental difference between OPA and the commercial product. The commercial product is really operationalizing in OPA for an enterprise deployment. >> So the relationship between Styra and OPA seems very collaborative to me that what you just described with the commercial product of Styra DAS is really one that was developed based on what the OPA community and Styra have learned together? >> Correct, Yes. So, OPA was created by the CTO, the founders of the company when the team was actually part of Nicira and they left Nicira which got acquired by VMware and so on early on several years ago, the need for distributed architectures and the need for unified policy so they left and created OPA. And from day one they wanted to get over into everybody's hands. That's why they contributed it to open source as part of CNCF. And then the next kind of strategy is to focus on the control apps aspects, the enterprise aspect. So yes, the same team that created OPA is the same team that's creating the Styra DAS commercial offering as well. >> So from the enterprise perspective, talk to me about some of the companies that you're talking to. I imagine any organization that's focused on cloud native, but any industry in particular that you see is really kind of leading edge right now? >> Yeah, so which industries are we talking to in terms of using Styra DAS and OPA? What we've actually found it's across the board. And we've seen in the early days that financial services and high tech were using OPA, but now it's really across the board. So it's all verticals really. And what we've noticed is any organization which is going through a cloud transformation project where they're either building new applications based upon cloud native app stacks like kubernetes and microservices and so forth or shift to the cloud are the companies that are also adopting OPA and the Styra DAS product, right? Because it's all part of the same solution set. And what we're noticing now and this is a fundamental difference is platform architects and developers are kind of prime to use these technologies. They learn about these technologies by going to the conferences and unlike the past which was very much top down selling from the sea level down, this is very much bottomed up. So developers learn about OPA from going to the conferences. They use it within their own environment and then they tell their management that, "Look, we're using OPA already. "We're missing these capabilities," or they come to us and we educate them about the Styra DAS product and so forth. So it's a very different sales model as well and that's why it's very important for ourselves and any open source company to really keep developers happy and provide a solution, that's meeting their requirements. >> On that side with so many of us and developers included working from home for the past nearly four months. We now are doing things like this virtual conversations, virtual events, how is Styra helping to continue to feed and educate those developers so that they can understand how you can impact their job functions and how they can then elevate you guys up the stack. >> Sure, so what's changed over the last three months or so in the market as a consequence of COVID-19 and from an educational point of view. So, what we've seen is fundamentally in the early days of COVID-19 everybody was kind of get the head around how to work from home and so forth, but what we've seen across the all verticals is developers have now really focused on educating themselves and just as a data point and the audience that we get to the OPA website is as high as it's ever been for the last three months. And what we're doing as a company is a lot of training sessions, video content, write-ups, blogs and so forth, right? And really helping the community learn about OPA and how to solve these kind of fundamental problems around policy and authorization within the environment. We've also been helped by the community as well. So there's been talks about a number of companies, Microsoft, Google, Palo Alto had a talk and many many companies are talking about OPA now and I love it because ultimately being an open source company and building a project which we want to become defacto, we want to raise the bar for security across the world, right? And if we can do that then it's going to be an achievement for us and it's very gratifying knowing that we're really fixing security problems for organizations because ultimately we always want to be able to use an application or a banking service and not worry about privacy and security concerns and that's ultimately what we're all after. But this is such a fundamental component that once we want to have developers learn this now because if they can incorporate this into the DevOps app stack then in future years when these applications are built and they're exposed there'll be more secure. >> And so it sounds like maybe there's even more engagement now during COVID when everybody is at home. Tell me about some of the things that are coming down the pipe for Styra in light of all of this exciting collaboration with the community. >> Sure, yeah. There's definitely been way more collaboration as a consequence of COVID-19. People are at home and they're focusing and they're going through learning sessions and browsing the website going through the video content and so forth. So what we're engaging as much as we have ever been, in fact I would argue that we're engaging even more so now, because it's just a different environment to work in. And what we're focused on now is really adding more features to the Styra DAS product, just to step back for a second, Open Policy Agent works across the cloud native stack and Styra DAS has been focused first on the kubernetes use case and now it also supports microservices as well. And then what we're continuing to do is add more of those enterprise features into Styra DAS and move up and up across the stack. But it is all driven by developers that we're talking to on a daily basis and that's leading to where the project is moving forward and the development for the roadmap and so forth. >> And Styra DAS was only launched in 2019, is that correct? >> 2019 yes, that's correct. That's correct. Yes, time flies, right? So, yes. >> A lot of change and a lot of development in a short period of time. >> That's right and 2019 was a big year for us, right? We started last 2019 with a soft launch at the RSA conference and we finished 2019 with series a funding led by Xcel. And yeah, it's great to see how the commercial product has been gaining traction in the marketplace as well as OPA as well and I think it's a combination of events. One, the fact that cloud native is now really well understood. Second, the fact that kubernetes at the beginning of 2019, it was still, "What does kubernetes mean, "is it going into production?" Now kubernetes is absolutely going into production and there's such a desire for organizations to make sure that security and policy and compliance are resolved before applications go into production otherwise we're going to have the same kind of challenges we had with previous app stacks. >> Well, the momentum is certainly with you. I can definitely hear that in your voice bell. Thank you so much for joining me talking about Styra, how you're reinventing policy and authorization for cloud native applications. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> For my guest Bill Mann, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube Conversation. 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