(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From Barcelona, Spain. It´s theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco Veeam and theCUBE´s ecosystem partners. >> Everyone, welcome back to theCUBE´s exclusive live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain with Cisco´s Live 2018 Europe. I was going to say DevNet, but we´re on the DevNet zone. I´m John Furrier, your host, with Stu Miniman, analyst at Wikibon.com . Our next guest is Susie Wee, who´s Vice-President, CTO of DevNet. Susie, CUBE alumni, welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Great to see you, welcome to Barcelona. >> John: Thank you for having us, we´re in the hot section of the Devnet Zone, the signs, cause it´s a big part of the hallway here. And it´s really where the action is. >> Susie: It is. >> You guys have continued to do a great job and we´re psyched to be on the ground where the action is. Thanks for inviting us. >> Great, I´m glad that you´re here. There´s so much going on. >> Okay, so Devnet is this renaissance going on at Cisco. But it´s also not just a Cisco phenomenon, the world of software development is seeing an explosion. I mean, from the edge of the network, and crazy fringe of cryptocurrency, blockchain, all the way into app development and then under the hood DevOps. Some really great things are happening, you have it featured here, DevOps, at Devnet. What´s going on at the DevNet zone? >> Yeah, it´s really interesting because what happens is here at Cisco live and here in the DevNet zone, we have basically people who deployed network and Compute Infrastructures, around Europe. And so, it´s pretty amazing that we have the people who are like feet on the street, working in those networks, deploying them, digitizing Smart Cities, putting up new buildings, putting up new infrastructure everywhere. And, what´s really cool is, they´re all interested in learning about APIs and software. And, so, that´s not easy, right? That´s something that´s a big shift in, like, I´m running a network infrastructure, and I´m ready to learn about software and deep-dive into APIs. So, our new products are coming out, which actually have built-in programmability. Like, the network now has APIs, it´s getting built into the network. And whereas you could always like take a Compute Infrastructure and manage it virtually, use, you know, CICD pipelines and everything there with DevOps. But the thing is, now the Network has APIs and you can now kind of flexibly deploy your network in that same way of DevOps but using Net DevOps, and that´s kind of what it´s all about. >> Yeah, Susie, I wonder, there was so much hype for a bunch of years about like, software to find networking. (Susie laughs) But, under the covers, like behind the scenes, you know, it´s the API economy. That´s where the actions happen, it doesn´t seem like it´s gotten quite the attention, you have some interesting things about where Net and Dev go together. What do people miss out there, that, you know, kind of the industry watchers, that, you know, aren´t here, aren´t seeing the people that are, you know, been spending days already doing stuff here. >> Susie: Yeah. >> And obviously you´re really excited. >> Well there was all the kind of excitement and hype, you know, it kind of went through it´s hype curve of what software-defined networking was and would be and could be. But the thing that we have to remember is that there´s like real mission critical networks operating all around the world and people who are out there, who deploy them and run them and manage them. And so, what happens is, you need to do more than just like put out a new protocol or put out a new innovation. You need to kind of bring the community along and kind of still make those revolutions, but, by evolving, right, having the evolutions and the folks who are deploying and making all the right thing happen. So, what happens is, just SDN is now becoming a reality. Because, it took more than just putting a controller on top of an existing network, like, that´s good, that´s an important part of it. But, it´s also just building programmability into the network elements themselves. And then, being able to get that really kind of rapid responses. You´re, you know, deploying new configuration, setting policy, incorporating security, you know. And so, now, just SDN is becoming real and the real world here, all of these folks are picking it all up. >> So I have to ask you, you mentioned Net DevOps, cause, you, we love, we´ve talked about DevOps all day long, Stu and I, with all the shows and, you know, we´re hop the trot for DevOps. But you said Net DevOps. >> Susie: Yeah. >> What is that? (Susie laughs) >> Can you explain? >> Yeah, it´s really awesome, it´s just basically the fact that, you know, with DevOps you´re taking your applications, cloud applications, deploying them fast, right? Rapidly, CICD, using this infrastructure-as-code type of thinking. Well now, it´s not only the Compute but the network plays in that too. So, basically, if you picture underneath that network is a bunch of network devices, a bunch of security, you know, products, all of these things are coming together to really connect everything. And, that´s becoming programmable. And what happens is now with Net DevOps you can create and treat the network as code. So, you want to deploy changes in your network, you´ll do it with a software configuration update. You know, you want to like, add new devices into the network. You want to add new users and set new policies for security, control how apps are done, how cloud, you know, applications are running. You can actually roll that out as software changes. So, what happens is suddently, it´s not only Compute that works in a DevOps pipeline, but the network is also participating in this Net DevOps pipeline. >> You know, I love this new trend, Net DevOps, because it´s kind of like, the old days was you moved up the stack. Now you see the movement down the stack from the applications, to DevOps, now moving lower to NetOps, Net DevOps. >> Susie: Yes. >> But the question is, that makes still no sense, by the way, but I need to ask. Who´s writing that code? The network guys? So, in DevOps, we knew who the DevOps guys were, it was the operators and the developers kind of coming together. >> Susie: Yeah. >> Yeah, pushing code, real agile. Who does that, the same guys doing DevOps? Or is it the network guys, a combination oh both? Would you... >> Oh, my God. >> A lot of people. (says in foreign language) >> Yeah, it´s really exciting the way that it´s evolving. So, what you see is, you know, in Cisco Live, we have a huge kind of community, just people who come to Cisco Live to get trained, to get their certifications on how to deploy the latest networking technologies and operate, manage them. They get certified and their running those networks around the world. They´re now here, picking up the software skills and learning to use these, the new software products, and being able to deploy in Net DevOps. So, they´re all here to learn about how can I put built-in automation. You know, once you have that programmability and automation you can scale and work things out in really big ways. How can I put applications performance monitoring into my network? You know, and make sure that it´s operating properly and we´re getting the right assurance that it´s performing well. So, the network operators, are picking up those skills. But, in addition, there´s actually the app developers, who are coming in and app developers who are writing, for example, management or DevOps or even, you know, Docker, Kubernetes. Folks who are in that, who need the network. And basically now they´re like "the network has APIs, I can actually use that, so that, if I, you know, for Docker and for Kubernetes, you know, we´re working with Google on stuff. Our developers are actually now writing tools to make sure that, as you´re optimizing your microservices, the placement of them, you´re taking the network into account as well. >> So you kind of get both. >> So it´s interesting, and Kubernetes plays an interesting role because you can actually run those functions >> Susie: Yes. >> On Kubernetes, can´t you? >> Susie: Yes. >> So that´s kind of a new trend. >> Susie: Yeah. >> Who´s, I mean, so they´re writing code in here, in DevNet Zone? Or is that, the network operators are coming in banging out code? >> So, network operator are here banging out code. There´s app developers who are coming in and banging out code as well. And this whole thing of like, you know, the infrastructure guys, the app developer guys. And then, the DevOps. There´s this DevOps professional, kind of like the IT folks that are moving on to embrace DevOps and they´re kind of emerging in the middle of here to use all of these tools that are created in open source. >> So you´re appealing to all constituency stakeholders of software. >> We are, we are, yeah. (laughs) >> We are, and actually I that some... >> Is that why DevNet´s so popular? (laughs) >> I think that people have a need, they see a need and (laughs), and basically what I think, like the trend that´s going on that´s kind of making this stuff happen, is that, we know there´s so much exciting, excitement in applications and cloud and all of the developments there, and the internet of things. These applications need the network more than ever before. So, before, they only used the network for connectivity, but now they need the network for security. They need it for scale. They do need more bandwidth, they need good performance. And, so... >> John: And they need to program that too. >> And they need to program it, exactly. And so, that´s what the new network APIs, the fact that you have a programmable network is what´s letting those guys play. And not just say, you know, before it was "here´s your network, like, just do the most you can, given the performance of the network", right? >> So Susie, first of all... >> But now it´s programmable. >> Congratulations on, you know, the DevNet Zone here is awesome. >> Susie: Thank you. >> And, we know it´s challenging to bring developers in and to, you know, pull this community in where, they might not have been before, there´s retraining everything, but, I was wondering if you can give us a little inside into Cisco. So, Cisco, you know, has been around for decades. Networking company. Software has been a piece of it for a long time, I mean, it´s, you know, even when it´s, you know, "hey, we spent a lot of money on building this chip out there", I was who´s what drove that. Software´s a large piece but, the whole developer angle, getting Cisco behind this, give us a little bit of inside as for what kind of transformation, you know, your team has driven inside to get more of Cisco onboard. I mean, you know, people that are used to selling boxes, and things that, you know, the networking industry is about ports and cables and speeds and feeds and, you know, apps are very different. >> It is, it is very different and it´s, um, it was actually really great. So we´ve built DevNet over the last four years. And it was one thing to kind of have a strategy, like, we knew that the products were going to software, that SDN was emerging. And that, the only way it could actually become real is for Cisco to also participate in it, right? Just cause there´s so much network out there that is Cisco. And so, the entire industry has made that become more real. But, you need to build an ecosystem around it, right? The only reason that it´d have software, like, there´s many reasons, but one of the main reasons is actually to make sure that the ecosystem is participating in the innovation. So, yeah, we created DevNet to, not just focus on our internal development but to provide and kind of catalyze the industry to participate and really innovate and build software on top using all the new APIs. So, um, so yeah, it´s been, it´s been amazing to see the growth and what´s interesting is, over the last 4 years, it´s the community. So, from our first DevNet Zone we had a lot of people who are interested. You know, they´re all like, ah! You know, my day job´s been networking. I coded a long time ago, let me get back into it. But now we see that audience, plus much more. Like, if you look at here at how engaged all of these kind of networkers and developers are, is, they´re right in there. They´re just hungry saying, you know, I have applications that I need to deploy. Applications are hitting the infrastructure. My network can make a difference in how well these new applications run. They´re all in. >> Susie, you´ve done this you´ve done this a number of times, now. Do you have like, kind of the hero numbers as to a what percentage of the attendees you know, spend a bunch of time in the DevNet zone, how much code or applications get written? Just, kind of order of magnitude. >> Susie: Oh. >> Kind of the engagement. >> You mean like, kind of like, from before til now? >> Yeah, well, pr just, you know, what expectations... >> Yeah. >> For this show, what you´ve seen at some of the previous events. >> Yeah, well, kind of what´s funny is, what happened is, the DevNet Zone, like having a developer conference within Cisco Live, it kind of grew as like a "What´s going on there?". And people where immediately interested, it was full. But we have just kind of grown and grown it to have learning labs, to have ISV partners in here, to have just kind of, like, you know, resellers. People who are solutions providers, they are kind of all here. This has, actually turned into the busiest area of Cisco Live. >> Yeah, and you´ve got your own events, too. >> Yes, yes, that´s right. And on top of like having the DevNet Zone here, our developer conference within Cisco Live, what other Cisco audience comes in, right? A huge ecosystem. But also have DevNet Create. So, when we´re going out, app developers are also interested in network APIs. So, it´s not just networkers. And, so, we actually have DevNet Create, which is just the dedicated developer conference for IOT, cloud developers, app developers. And they´ve shown big interest in all of this as well. >> And this is a whole new constituency, but it´s kind of the same game, though, right? It´s like, you offering the programmable network to a whole another net new Cisco community? Is that kind of like you guys look at it? >> It is, and, exactly. And like, we´ve gone outside, we´re offering the network. And what we´re doing is, we´re actually, you know, when you´re a real networking geek, like a networking expert. >> John: Like us. >> You can do network talk, right? And you´re talking network, and you´re kind of getting into all of that. And before app developers were like, we don´t care about that, like, just, we need to write our apps. We shouldn´t have to worry about the network. But, now that those APIs are coming too, and again, their apps are dependent on network performance, they´re dependent on security they can get from the network. It turns out that once we express the value proposition to them, like, this is what a network API can do for you. They´re really interested. >> And even though that we´ve observed that there´s a separation between app developers who just want to write apps >> Susie: Yep >> And software engineering, which is under the hood they still need to be involved in the network because of microservices. >> Susie: Yes. >> So now they have the ability to use APIs that they´re comfortable with, they know ABIs. And, make unique changes to the app, based upon unique network characteristics they can tap into. >> Yeah. >> John: This seems to be the glue in the crossover point for you guys. >> It is. >> John: Did I get that right? >> It is, it is. So, what happens is, there will always be a set of app developers, who of course, are not going to use the network. They´re going to write their app, they´re going to want it to deploy everywhere, of course. I mean, that´s what everybody wants. But you´ve already seen it. As someone writes a cloud app, right? They write a cloud service or a cloud app, and it scales, and they´re deploying their app across different clusters and >> They are learning a lot >> John: They´re going to write >> About what´s going on >> John: They´re going to write policy. >> They´re going to write policies >> Yeah >> They have to decide what countries am I going to spin up my servers in, you know. >> Yeah. >> So, actually, they do a lot of that. So, what happens is, this set of kind of cloud developers, and specially as they moved to microservices as you said, their applications are going to a microservices-based architecture. Things can spin up in different places and then it becomes more critical of, you know, how do these different containers talk to each other? What´s the networking policy for what data can go in and out? What´s the security policy? And, you need to build that in. So, the network matters to them. >> Well, a beautiful thing about what you guys are doing is, you´re catering to a whole new generation of developers who are slinging APIs on one end, but also potentially writing Node.js code. And so, the´re very familiar with IO. >> Susie: Exactly, yes. >> So, microservices is like fish to water. And so, you´re just making it easier >> Susie: Yes. >> for them. That´s the, that´s the angle on the app side. >> That´s right, and then we´re just giving them that tool. And they had so much pain with it before because a lot of times people would be like writing their app, right? They´re doing it in their cluster, then they push it to production. Boom, it goes out. And then, it doesn´t work anymore. And a lot of times it´s because the network is not set up properly in their new thing. So they blame the network and the blame... But, once you start to open up the APIs, you can start to move these things and do it, you know... >> Well, Susie, you´ve got a great group. It´s the biggest story here. We believe, we´ve been reporting DevNet Zone. You know, theCUBE, we´re always on the best trends and the best waves, you´re on it. >> By the way, have you seen the security challenge over here? >> The blackhat >> So,the blackhat, white hat security challenge? It´s actually pretty interesting. (John laughs) >> It shows... >> John: Well, we´ll have to go test our chops, too. >> That´s right, that´s right. >> John: Dust off those coding hands. >> That´s right. (laughs) >> We´ll go over there. Well, I love the tagline, all around these classrooms. Learn, code, inspire and connect. >> Yes. >> Great motto, cause you´re building community in one end, and educating on the other spectrum. So, education to community, great spectrum. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Susie Wee, Vice-President and CTO of DevNet, here at Cisco, doing a great job. This is where the action is. This is the transformation of Cisco. It´s becoming software and network DevOps. New term, Net DevOps, heard here on theCUBE. I´m John Furrier and Stu Miniman. We´ll be back with more live coverage, in Barcelona, Spain after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Barcelona, Spain. it's The Cube covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, Veeam, and The Cube's Ecosystem Partner. (upbeat music) (people chatting in background) >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This is The Cube exclusive coverage live in Barcelona, Spain, for Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder and co-host of The Cube here all week, two days of live wall-to-wall coverage in the DevNet Zone where all the action's at. It's the biggest story at Cisco Live is the impact of the DevNet and the developer network that's been growing leaps and bounds. Of course, we covered DevNet Create earlier last year, which is a Cloud Native event. Kind of bring in two communities together from Cisco and of course, we can't talk about developers without talking about experiences that developers need and want and expect and also, you know, how to operate in those environments. We have two great guests. Mandy Whaley's been on before, The Cube Alumni Director of Developer Experiences at Cisco, and Tom Davies, who's the Senior Manager of the DevNet Sandbox. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Good to see you again. >> Excited to be here. Yeah, good to see you, too. >> So congratulations. >> DevNet is again booming. It's the hot part of the show. It's one of the top stories here in Barcelona. >> Yes. >> It's been great. Our workshops, where we're doing the hands-on coding, have been extremely full even early in the morning and late into the evening, and it's great to see people really diving in, laptops open, getting their hands on, and doing some coding. >> That's great stuff, congratulations. And, you know, the Sandbox is interesting because now you guys are completely open. Love the motto: learn, code, inspire, and connect. That's the motto here. You got to have a place for people to do this. >> You do. >> What is this Sandbox thing that you guys are rollin' out? It's pretty interesting. >> Yeah, so the Sandbox is completely open to everyone, and the idea behind it is if you like, if you can go to developer.cisco.com/sandbox, you can hit our catalog and start playing with our technology within minutes by just clicking on the technology you want to cover. We'll spin you up that environment, and you can start playing it as a developer really quite quickly. >> Alright, take me through a progression example, because let's just say I hit that website, developer.cisco.com/sandbox, >> Yeah. what do I do? I mean, what are people doing? Is it like, you know, Hello World or what are they coding? What are they learning? I mean, what's goin' on there? >> It just depends on the technology that they choose. So we go to developer.cisco.com/sandbox, hit Catalog, it comes out with a bunch of titles, and in that catalog, you can choose Networking, you could choose Security, you could choose Data Center, Cloud, Open Source, any different technology that that developer might be interested in or want to integrate into, and then from there they click on that title and say, "Right, I want to reserve say APIC-EM. "I'm interested in Networking and control of Networking." From there, we spin that environment up for them, completely secure, send them the details of how it's connect, they connect to it, and then they are free to start coding within minutes on, say, a APIC-EM controller solution, figure out what the latest release provides them, >> Yeah. how they integrate into it, and how they can start innovatin' in a really easy way over the top. >> So they can, it's a playground. They can do mash-ups. >> It's a playground, yeah. >> It is. >> I can sling API's around, test stuff, break stuff. >> If they're breaking somethin', they're probably doin' something right so we encourage it. >> Yeah (laughs) >> Yeah. >> It's brilliant. >> Yeah. >> The other thing that's really cool about the Sandbox is that Tom takes a lot of time and care to make sure we put together fully, you know, environments where you can actually build things with the Cisco gear plus open source projects that are relevant to those pieces of the Cisco technology portfolio, so it's not just the environment. It's sample code, it's open source you can use, it's traffic generations, it's really a full working environment. >> Yeah, that brings up a good point I wanted to ask you, as we had some other guests on. We couldn't get to it. You're startin' to see with Kubernetes and well, first docker containers and now all containers. Really interesting. I mean, Red Hat just bought CoreOS yesterday. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's big news. >> They did, they did. >> Big news, yeah. >> In Europe, you miss all the action. The State of the Union. (Tom laughs). >> I know. >> It was a big story on the New York Times on Sunday. I'm like, "Ah, I'm missin' all the late news." But that's a signal. Containers are commoditized. You're seeing that be the now abstraction layer for moving work loads around and program around it. >> We do. >> Kubernetes gives an orchestration opportunity that now allows you to bring this service mesh concept to the table. >> It does. >> This is becoming a really interesting developer dream, because now I could provision >> Yes. microservices and start doing network services with those microservice at the app layer. >> Yeah. >> This to me is a really, really big trend. I know you guys have kind of quietly put it out there, a term called "Net DevOps," >> Yes. which I think will be a very big thing. >> Yep. (Mandy laughs) >> Because it's DevOps the whole stack. >> It is. >> That's right, yeah. >> But really usin' the network more, so for the people who are power users of network services, this could become a very big DevOps movement. >> Yes, yes. >> Can you explain this concept of the Net DevOps, and does that relate to like SDO and some of the service mesh stuff out there? What's your-- >> Yeah, do you want to start with service mesh and then I'll dive into the lower parts or, yeah? >> We can do that. >> Go for it. >> Jump right in. >> Yeah. >> Share the information. >> Yeah, sure. >> The term service mesh is actually fairly new, and it's common because as people use microservices more, their understandin' that they just perforate like crazy, and it's actually really quite hard to understand which microservices talk to which microservices, are they doin' it securely? Are they within policy? Are they talkin' to the right thing? And that's where SDO comes in. It's really providin' a proxy for that traffic so you can easily talk between microservice A and microservice B, understand it, see observability between that traffic, and then control that traffic, and SDO is takin' really the abstraction away, takin' the pain away from that huge service. >> Just talk about the quantify that time savings, because this is like, I think this really kind of was the minds get blown. That example you just laid out, without that, what would you have to do? I have to build a proxy, I have to test it. >> You do. >> I mean, just take me through it. >> Yeah. The comparisons A to B. >> Well, normally when you have >> Real quick. a microservice, you probably have about 15 other services around them all. Like if you had a ton of microservices, you probably have 15 different subserving services around it. With SDO, it takes 15 away so you don't have to manage or operate all those, and it brings you down to one, and that's really super key, 'cause it makes it so much easier to deal with microservices >> Yeah. then to bail them out. >> And then I boil it down, and then I tell people when Amazon launched Lambda, which essentially the serverless trend, 'cause they're always >> Yeah. just services. Never really serverless. (Mandy laughs) I know the Cisco people debate this all the time, and now there's, it's true. This server's behind it. >> Of course. They just take this abstraction away. They're really enabling this notion of a mindset for the developer where this gets into the user experience, user expectation. >> Right. >> Yes. >> If I want infrastructure as a code and I don't want to dive into the network services, I want the one not the 15 to deal with. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> I'm essentially programming the infrastructure at that point, so this is a big, effin' deal. >> This is a big deal, >> It is. and then even what we're seeing is that the expectations are set by DevOps practices, and now that our network devices are opening up APIs, and we have the really strong assurance and analytics pieces that we saw in the Cisco keynotes, we can extend those DevOps concepts to managing network devices. So something very traditional, networking task, like out of VLAN. Let's say you want to do that, but you want to do that in a network as code manner. So you want to take that through a build pipeline, something that would be familiar to a developer or somebody who manages their infrastructure in a DevOps way, but now you can do it for a networking device. And you can take it through build and test just like you would code, and all of your network configurations are source controlled so you have your version control around it, and that's a big mind shift for the network developers. But in DevNet, we have the application developers, the ops engineers, and the net workers, and then what we're tryin' to do is share those practices across because that's the only way we'll get to the scale, the consistency, the level of automation that we need. >> Alright, so here's a question for you guys. Put you on the spot. DevOps has been great. It's going mainstream. Some are called CloudOps, whatever, but DevOps is great, great movement. >> Yes. >> That's been goin' on for a while, you know. Hey. >> Yeah. You know, pat each other on the back. (Mandy laughs) But DevOps means automation. >> Yes, yes. >> Right? >> And the old rule is you got to do it twice automated. This scares people. So what is being automated away in the Net DevOps model? >> So I wouldn't know that it's being automated away, but the idea is that is if we're managing infrastructure, traditionally you would do it in a sequential and manual way, right? But we need to do it in a parallel and automated way. So moving towards that automation helps us do that. I think we see some network engineers who think, "I have to learn a lot of new skills to do this." >> Mm-hmm. >> And that is true, but you don't have to be the level of an application developer who's writing applications to do some automation and scripting, and DevNet's really working to put the tools out there to lead them down that path and get them moving in that direction. It's also a little bit more, I mean, DevOps is definitely the automation in the tools. There's also the culture of bringing Dev and Ops together. So the same thing happens there as well. >> Totally agree, and also the process as well, repeatability in what we're doin'. So once you've done one >> Yes. and that process works for you, you can repeat that process for the next set of configuration you're deploying. >> Yeah, definitely. >> What's interesting. >> Super slick. >> Rowan showed on stage the future titles of what it'll be like in 2030 or 2050. I forget which year it was. >> Yes, yes. I joked, it says the LinkedIn on that. Might not even be around, might be around then, either. (Mandy laughs) This is a new field, right? >> Yes. >> And successful companies, the ethos was hire the smartest person because the jobs that are coming haven't been invented yet, so there's no right experience there. So this kind of reminds me of what's going on with DevOps where, you know, Network guys, they're not dumb. I mean, they're smart, right? >> Super smart. >> You know? >> Yeah. >> And it used to be that you were the rock star if you ran the network. >> That's right, that's right. >> Okay, now the rock stars are more the app developers and the developers on the Dev Op side. So these would be easy, and we're seeing that it's easy for those guys to jump in to some of these coding and/or agile mindsets. >> Yes. >> 'Cause they are gunslingers, they are rock stars. >> They are, it's incredible how fast they're picking it up. I mean, they are, just from the ones that we met from last year to this year who were here came to like their first coding class. This year they're here, and they're like, "Oh yeah, I totally get this build pipeline. "I'm doing this in my organization." We're seeing 'em pick it up incredibly fast. >> And so they obviously see a path to other jobs. What patterns are you guys seeing in terms of things that they're doing on the Sandbox and/or some of the user expectations that they have as they're now fresh, young, or/and middle age >> Yeah. or old students >> Right? in the new world. What are some of the patterns? >> Yeah. >> What are they kickin' tires on? What's the, what are they gravitating towards? >> Everythin', but they yeah, literally everythin', but they're always like quite interested in containers and what's happenin' in the container world and how that applies >> Yes. to networkin', especially because as we touched on it earlier, there's a lot of networkin' to be had in the container world, and it's not just one layer of (mumbles) of the service mesh. There's also virtualization layers, there's like abstracted policy layers. There's a good few layers of networkin' that you need to know and really understand to be able to get into, so that's one real trend that the network guys >> Yes. really are jumpin' on, and so they should, because they're great at it. >> Yeah, I would add to that. Like I've been seeing, you know, in different conversations I have with people who are coming from the appDev side or the Op side and saying, "Wow, I'm really good at containers. "I can build apps and containers all day." And then they get into it, and they're like, "The networking part of containers is hard. "There's a lot to learn." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I definitely see a lot of activity around both sides coming together around, "How do we really make that work?" >> And the bottom line is is that this whole "Your job's going away" is ridiculous because this really proves that there is so much job security in DevOps it's ridiculous. >> There's more devices per engineer to be managed then ever before, so it's really just you have to have the automation to even keep up, right? >> Yeah, it's quite funny, actually, because I come from a very much a software centered background, and networkin' to me was black magic. You had to know so much stuff in the networking order, it used to scare the hell out of me, but I had to go down into the network layer to start understandin' it to do a better job of software >> Well, you was locked down. and I'm seein' the reverse. >> I mean, you had perimeter-base security, (Tom laughs) and you had very inflexible configuration management things. You were just >> Yeah. really locked down. >> That's right. Now agile and dyanmic >> And then we're seein'. adaptive, and these are the words that are described. And now add IoT to the mix. You guys had the Black Hat, you know, IoT booth here, >> Yes. which is phenomenal. >> Yes. It's only going to increase the edge of the network, which is not new to Cisco. >> Definitely. Cisco knows the edge. >> That's right. So it's going to be interesting to see that going forward. >> Yeah. >> Definitely. >> And that's one of our sandboxes. We have a sandbox where developers can practice taking docker containers and deploying them into Edge Compute in our routers, and that's one that's really popular and gets a lot of-- >> It's incredibly popular. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Mandy and Tom, thanks for comin' on The Cube. Really appreciate, great to see you again. >> Yeah, thank you so much. >> Congratulations on all your success. Go kick on the tires of the Sandbox. >> It's all down to Mandy. >> Yeah. >> You guys did a great job. >> DevNet developer network for Cisco here, and of course DevNet created in separate small, boutique-event small, for the Cloud Native World. You want to check that out. Well, the Cube will be there this year. This is The Cube live coverage. I'm John Furrier, stay tuned for more of day 2, exclusive Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, Veeam, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here, exclusive coverage of Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. We're in Barcelona, Spain for theCUBE Day one wrap of our two days of wall-to-wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman, and we're going to break down day one, Stu? >> I can go for a couple more hours, who else we got? >> But Stu, we'll go live for a marathon session. No, let's wrap it up. We got a full day tomorrow, got some great guests here. At the keynote, Cisco laying out their vision and the story's kind of coming together, and I think Cisco has clarity. So my takeaway, I learned a lot. I learned that Cisco is not just talking, they're walking. They got a lot of work to do. I think that the signs of great progress with Cisco, Stu: one is Rowan put out a great keynote that looks forward not back. They didn't lean on their base and saying we're going to milk this cow until it's dead, meaning the networking engineers and the position. They're looking forward and putting a vision out there that says here's how the network will transform applications and they had a lot of use cases from IoT to multi-cloud and more. And two, they're cracking the code on IoT because they bought Jasper, which is back haul, essentially using cellular to the classic OT market, which is a classic end-to-end. To me, that was a revelation to me and I think that might be the unique creative thinking that could bring IoT into IT and transform the highly unsecure IoT WiFi IP market because anyone can throw a smart light bulb or whatever device. Full processing, multi-threading capabilities, and that can be hijacked and taken over and spewing malware and ransomware and everything else in between. >> John, if anything what I critique a little bit is he gives the vision of 2050. Go to a show like Amazon, they're like hey builders, here's what we have for you today that's really cool. And I think, we heard a lot from Cisco today, the cool things they have. Big acquisitions like AppD. We've talked a lot about, in the IoT discussion today, you talked about it was a $1.4 billion acquisition they made in that space. Here in the DevNet Zone, they're not talking about the future, they're talking about what they're building today. >> Well Stu-- Stu, you know how I feel about this. I kind of roll my eyes when I get that kind of futuristic with no meat on the bone. If you're going to have sizzle, you better have some steak on the grill. That's the critique for me is I'm looking and squinting through the hype and use cases. Oh, we got the future's going to be upon us to reality. What do they got now? That's the progress that I see and the signals that are showing to me are DevNet, active transformation of classic network engineer operator to programmer, one. Two, Susie Wee pointed out a new concept that we love called Net DevOps, which is programming the network for microservices and these new services with Kubernetes as the linchpin. Heard a little bit about Google, so in line with Google. Of course, Cisco's got billion dollar partners in the ecosystem. The certainly great fertilizer if you will, for this growth. They got a lot of things coming together. I think the challenge for Cisco and the strategic imperative that I see for the management team is show progress now. Now you've got the vision, that's the sizzle. Show the stink, that's what's happening now if they can bring that Amazon like mojo, I would think they'd hit a home run. >> John, we've got the Learning Lab behind you in DevNet area here. It's the first time in two whole days I haven't seen it packed and that's just because 15 minutes ago the World of Solutions reception opened. They've got snacks, they've got beer and wine, the music's going over there, so everybody's kind of moved over there but this area's been hopping. A day before the rest of the show really started, before the key notes. Absolutely, I'd love to have Susie talk about the four year transformation internally. We'd watched some of the people inside Cisco beating the drum, talking about making change. Cisco's made investment in Open Source. They've tried to move the needle some, but this developer wave, absolutely, they need to be a part of it. I think back to John Chambers talking about all the adjacencies, some of the failed acquisitions, flip acquisition, some the set top box type stuff. IoT, is the message they've had. I think you laid it out well. They had a good vision upfront but the market needed to mature some. Now we're ready for this to be real. Partner ecosystem, absolutely. Cisco is still a behemoth in this space and they've got strong partnerships a lot of way. There's a lot of transitions. There's some things they need to be careful about how they make the moves, but absolutely, there's interesting times here. >> Stu, you and I always love to talk about this because the network is where the bottleneck has always been. You mentioned in one of the questions, I forget who the guest was, what's going on with some of defined networking? Well, guess what, microservices changes that game. With Kubernetes now as a integration layer, it kind of splits the line between app developers and under the hood software engineering, all the way down to network engineering. Those are okay personas, but now you have policy programmability at the network level that services could take advantage of Those app developers that are slinging APIs, doing no JS, they're used to IOs. They're used to programming these functions. This kind of feels a little bit like serverless is coming to the table. I haven't heard that word here, but kind of getting that vibe. >> Absolutely, we haven't heard serverless. We have talked about containers some. Obviously, we talked about Kubernetes in area we've won, but the multi-cloud is still a little bit early for where Cisco plays at that M and O piece of it, Cisco has had a number of plays over the years and they make an acquisition. We'll see how it is. My friends in the networking space, the line is the single pain of glass, John, is spelled P-A-I-N. I'm glad I didn't hear that term from Cisco. >> John: I heard it once only. >> In general, they understand some of the challenges. They touch a lot of the pieces and they're not being overly dogmatic. They're not bashing the public Cloud. Yes, they have a lot more revenue in the data centers in the service providers, but they're not coming out here as a Cloud denier. >> That's a great point for a couple things. You know how I feel about multi-cloud. I think multi-cloud's BS right now. I think it's one of those moon shots down the road and I don't think anything's going to happen in multi-cloud for awhile. Your "True Private Cloud" report on Wikibon.com kind of validates that. The thing about the pain of class, Cisco actually has a lot of that on the management side. What needs to happen is that pain of glass management has to move up the stacks, Stu. This is where I think the test will be for them. That's going to be key. The thing that I did not hear that I'm surprised about is I didn't hear anything about data-driven anything. There's a lot of stuff being talked about. Programmable networking, kind of implies data. You even heard the IoT general manager talk about IoT feeds AI. I think AI's fed by data. Certainly, IoT supports data. I didn't hear about how their data is driving either policy, automation, not enough of that. I think that's a weak area, I'll say, they've got to do some work on. >> John, some of that I think is just terminology cause if you look inside the intent-based networking pieces that Cisco talks about, David Goeckeler this morning in the key note. He said it's about learning and security. Learning, it's all about data. How do we train those models? They didn't throw out the AI and MO buzzwords out there, but underneath, that's what's happening. It is about data, just networking people don't talk about data nearly as much as the compute or storage people. You're right, serverless, how will that impact the network? Because underneath infrastructure matters. Teagan's going to have to move around a lot more. I would've expected to hear some mention of it. >> Well, you made a good point, I agree with you. I love this intent-based networking. It really changes the conversation. If you say, what is that, what is intent in context? Huge conversation point, huge area to explore. This truly will make an adaptive network, a flexible network. It'll make it programmable. That's what people want. App developers need to have the services on the network side and they need the automation. Really, really key point. Any other learnings for you, Stu? >> Really John, it's going through that shift in model as we talked about in the intro. Cisco heavily moving towards that software model. Riaz who they brought in, heavy software background. You've got that balance of Cisco has strong history. They are trusted. Network provider, Trust and risk are absolutely the number one things that customers hear about. Security is something they bang on, but they need to undergo those transformations. People like Susie, like Riaz, coming in, helping to drive what's happening there. It's been nice to see very different from when the last time I came to Cisco, very heavy gear, and people plugging and running around, dealing with all those challenges. You think back to customers always-- What do they spend, 70 to 80% on keeping the lights on? Most of the activities we talk about here aren't the, oh, how do we keep the lights on? It's about growing the business and transforming the business, which is the imperative for CIOs today. >> The other thing I liked today is we had storage on, IBM and NetApp with a Cisco partner and ecosystem managing executives. Here's the thing that I learned and I'm happy to see this. You see storage going through the haves and have nots. There is a line going on, maybe its NV, NVFE over-- >> Stu: NVME over Fabrics. >> MVME over Fabric is causing a line that's going to define history, either on the wrong side of history or the right side. We're seeing storage start-ups struggling. We're seeing a lot of companies that we knew that went public, going out of business, start-ups cratering. But there's winners. Hearing the Cisco guys with NetApp and IBM, you're starting to see the storage vents who continue to make it, doing well and they're differentiating. What Cisco has actually done masterfully in my opinion, is they've balanced the ecosystem with the storage guys so that they can let everyone win. It's like a race car. Do you want the Lamborghini or the Ferrari or Porsche? You have different versions of storage. Each one can stand on their own and use Cisco and the better mousetrap wins, the better engine, will win for the use cases of the storage guys. Seeing kind of some swim lanes for storage. That's a good sign, Stu, for Cisco. >> Yeah, absolutely. That's how Cisco really drove that wave of converged infrastructure. I heard from lots of the partners at the (mumbles). CI, even though it's not the sexiest thing anymore cause it's over eight years old now, we've been talking about it, billions of dollars, that's what drove UCS, Cisco has a little bit of fear that they missed out on some of the core verbalization so they're not going to miss the container trend. They're not going to miss microservices. They're all over these pieces. But absolutely, they understand the value of ecosystems and they're very smart about how they target that. >> I agree with you, they got the container magic going on. DevNet certainly is looking good from a developer's standpoint. We will be covering the DevNet Create Event, which is a non-Cisco ecosystem. It's a new territory that Susie Wee has taken down, which is to get real Cloud native developers that aren't necessarily in the ecosystem, so that's going to be a positive. The thing I want to ask you, Stu, to end day one wrap up because this is kind of coming up as the NVME over Fabric. What's the impact of Cisco because we see the impact on the market place, with David Floyer would be chiming away if he was here, but I'd like to get your thoughts because you covered it closely, how is that going to help Cisco? Does it hurt Cisco, does it enable them, is it a game changer? What's the impact of NVME over Fabric? >> Cisco, remember not just a networking company, they're a compute supplier with UCS here. They have the M5, they have their latest that they have. Cisco's all over this, they're involved. It's how do I really bring that HPC kind of environment we've been talking about in the networking space. RDMA options out there. iWARP and Roce and NVME over Fabrics is going to be able to give me even higher speed, really low latency, getting scuzzy out of the way, which has been something that we've been trying to do for over a decade now in the storage world. I don't think-- We talked to Eric Herzog this morning and I really agree with him. This is evolutionary and this is not something that's catching anyone by surprise. It's not like-- >> It's on their radar. >> We're going from wire to wireless, or hey, this is now ethernet instead of token ring. >> So not a massive shift. >> It is similar to disk and Flash. It's absolutely, it's the next generation and there will be companies that implement it better, but we've all seen it coming. All the big guys are involved in it. Cisco, it relates to them and their ecosystem, and you expect them to not be a huge shift. >> One of the things we did not hear about. It's not a main theme here, it's certainly an undercurrent. It's certainly mainstream in the tech industry, both on the enterprise and emerging tech, certainly on AI and software, Stu, is the role of open source software. Not a lot going on here. I looked for sessions, I didn't see any birds of a feather or any meetups around open source. I know it's a DevNet show, Cisco show. DevNet creates a little bit more open source with Cloud found. We've interviewed folks like that and others. But if they're going to be talking to Google, and we're talking about Kubernetes, you cannot ignore the role of open source in the Cisco ecosystem. Your thoughts. Miss, not relevant to the show, kind of the back burner? Maybe Cisco's boiling something up? What's happening with their role and impact with open source? >> John, we heard that there's a presentation tomorrow in STO, they're working with Google on that. I'm not surprised not to see heavy open source in here. It would fit into the Cloud messaging, absolutely Cisco. On that Kubernetes train. We talked about in the containers that ecosystem when Docker announced the networking pieces, Cisco was right up there, wanted to make sure they're there. Cisco's doing it. John, they've had middling success to where they've been able to roll that into their products. We've covered a lot of it because we're big proponents of it but the typical customer here, I don't think that they're like oh hey, I didn't see this. There's other places where those communities, the builders and the contributors in those environments know where Cisco goes. >> Cisco's got billions of dollars they've got to focus on that I agree, but open source is important. You know, Stu, we think Kubernetes could possibly unlock the multi-cloud path. We're constantly watching it. I think it's important to them, they have to be there. They're talking Kubernetes. They're talking about that line in the stack that creates an app developer, very cohesive app developer ecosystem, and then under the hood, engineering, software engineering mindset. They got to play. If you're going to play with Google in multi-cloud, Google's all in open source. They want to be on Amazon, they got to be open source. They got to be there, so we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Okay, day one wrap up here. theCUBE, live in Barcelona for exclusive coverage of Cisco Live 2018. We'll be here all day tomorrow as well. Thanks for watching, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman for Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. Thanks for watching. (techno music)