this is the cute live from the Moscone Center in San Francisco this is silicon angles continuous coverage a vm world 2010 now inside the cube we're back to continuous coverage of vm world 2010 live I'm John Ferrier from SiliconANGLE we are in the cube the cube is a broad social media broadcast that acquires knowledge and this segment is going to be very fun we have a group of entrepreneurs part of the cloud computing club that I'm proud to say that I was one of the cofounders of with Nate DeMarco and James waters and these guys have been in the trenches from cloud from the beginning and like to introduce to my left is rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias so these guys are entrepreneurs they've been out in the field ton of experience in the business cloud has arrived they were there at the beginning so we're going to share our experiences about why the cloud is so big and relevant and entrepreneurship what are the opportunities for startups because there is a lot of opportunity vmware is putting forth the framework that is going to enable a lot of growth and we heard from todd nielsen that for every dollar of vmware licenses may be about fifteen dollars of ecosystem money so that that's money and the VC panel we had here on Wednesday was talking about huge dollars going into cloud so we're gonna get the reality of kind of what's real some proof points and so the first question will go right down the line will start with rich what is the reality of cloud and just at a high level the entrepreneurial opportunities it's a shift it's big it's relevant is happening right now and we're on the scene here at Moscone well there are two there are two baskets as i see it entrepreneurially you're looking at cloud backward taking what's existing a lot of legacy stuff making it work appropriately making it work the way you'd like it to work in a cloud getting all the benefits then huge entrepreneurial opportunities cloud forward building new apps green field all things web web app looking at this as a you know doing new things not trying to repeat the old and if you drop them into those two categories Enterprise is paying first for the legacy but where the the real fun is and where the entrepreneurs really start to kind of converge is on the cloud forward stuff cloud for a great message good angle there Bernard what's your angle on this well we we see a lot going on in apps I was in a breakfast this morning basically the whole message the whole theme was apps kind of driving everything which is interesting because kind of change from a lot of IT organizations traditionally been very infrastructure focused so a lot of stuff around apps and stuff that helps apps the other thing that came out of that breakfast was a lot about cloud management how do you manage these environments how do you manage a lot of discussion about end-to-end management instead of siloed management for sure there's great opportunity there I don't know how to solve the problem with this great opportunity around that Randy you're Randy you got a growing business right now you started as an entrepreneur and you grew a business you're growing like crazy you're at you're on the doorstep of all the cloud scaling cloud scaling calm is your organization talk about your experience and what you see going forward vast majority the wisdom transition look at our engagements were basically they're really looking at ways to generate I think sort of continued consolidation business so the ecosystem is growing there's a lot of people out there in the trenches deploying as vmware change with this vm world this week I mean what's different and what are you guys seeing from your customers and prospective customers in the environment out there and what are the key issues holding things back or what are the key issues that are going to accelerate real cloud deployments and and and cloud service providers are part of this show too and that's a new dynamic we're seeing well one of the things that's pretty obvious about this show and kind of you could almost draw a bright line over the course of the last year or 18 months is that now we're no longer talking as much about infrastructure getting that right whether it's in the public cloud or in the enterprise today we're talking about platform and not so much platform as a service but here what you're looking at is the constructor construction kits the piece parts by which you start putting together platforms and then specific software applications that are cloud oriented this show and both the influence of spring vfabric all of that the cloud the director all of that starting to look at moving up the food chain much more about platform much more about the construction of applications on a scale of one to ten rich real deal ten being real deal with the spring source framework or zero non-starter spring oh that it's already in the bag it's it is done deal this is a real deal what we have here is the beginnings of truly platforms whether they're built inside the the enterprise or platforms as a service the construction kits for real applications absolutely Bernard hyper Stratus you're out talking to customers all the time and they got challenges said walk through some of your experiences with your clients and the marketplace well what I'll say is that what we hear about a lot what we work on a lot is security a lot of companies saying how do I secure my app particularly in a public cloud environment what do we do around that something that's a kind of a second order is we get called in a lot with companies say I put my app application up in a public cloud and the magic supposed to be that's scalable how come my apps not scaling and then we end up doing a lot of architecture re working so I think architecture is a big deal this is a if you want to take advantage of cloud computing characteristics your application must be ready to do that so I think that's that's the true drill down on the architecture thing that's not scaling thing just expand on that a little bit well what are the issues there well you know the vision is somehow automatically load goes up and the application star spawns at extra resources extra instances in the past the way that happened was you maybe had to provision hardware and then admin had to sort of go in and reconfigure everything the application that we brought down brought back up if you want to move that from a hands-on thing to an auto magically kind of thing your application has to be written such that it can gracefully add and subtract resources you have to have a management framework that supports that and you know those are new kinds of things basically because the old model was very static very hands-on so those kinds of challenges or concerns that we run into a lot Randy you're getting your hands dirty out there are you stitching all these things together and and you got a lot of successes talk about your experiences and you know things you've learned that were surprises and things that were not surprises and and challenge is going to going forward optimization the true pioneers in cloud computing their folks like Amazon and Google and what they have really pioneered is operating in massive scale I mean movie from enterprise computing cloud computing is like moving from the assembly line mechanism for manufacturing cars to the robotics factory mechanism for manufacturing cars it's very very different if you actually look in Amazon at Amazon's operations team there's two core components infrastructure engineering which writes software that automates hardware and data center operations which changes out the hardware and there's nobody in between just like in a robotics factory for cars you have people who design the robotics in the factory and you have the people who do QA on the line and meet and do maintenance on the robots and there's really nobody in between and so that when you go and you look at these guys and what that means and you talk about scalability like Bernards talking about you'll notice that somebody like Google has a huge number of sort of horizontal services something like Google FS or big table and MapReduce which are sort of these horizontal services across the entire data center that every single application leverages and that's how a single application for google is able to get skill but when you look into an enterprise data center every single application is its own silo sometimes all the way through it down through the network in the storage and that's why that's part of the reason why it's difficult to scale there are also application architectural constraints of course which and you know somebody like Bernard can help you out with but you know the fundamental way that you're actually designing the data center and how you provide horizontal services it was also what's going to enable true platform as a service to work on top of any infrastructure as a service so if you if you kind of ignore one to the detriment together if you don't build the infrastructure as a service right with those horizontal service layers then you can't really do the rest of the job we had we had the cube down in orlando for SI p event we had the cio of levi strauss tom peck on and one of the things that came out of that conversation randy was busting down the silos and he absolutely saying you know from his organization sample he wants to bus down those silos what can you share I mean you're in there you're busting down silos with your team what's what's the team configuration like what's the dynamic and just what are some of the conversations that you have I mean people like hey we love you and all sudden we can't do that I mean we've talked at the cloud clubs about yeah some of the politics and is it just riff on that a little bit it's gonna be scary you sure you want me to go there yeah go ahead we bring it out on the cube in our most successful engagements we basically sidelined the CIO and his entire stack because they wanted to do Enterprise competing with a cloud label on top of it instead of real cloud computing and they were obstructionist and they did not know how to decide eyes themselves I mean if you think about it Enterprise IT has a centralized department has has effectively been a monopoly inside of that each of those enterprises for 30 years and they do not understand how to fix their own Monopoly and the only way that you break down a monopoly is through competition and through funding those successful competitors that's part of why you see salesforce com being so successful marketplace their core competition for the longest time was internal implementations a CRM and so if you really want to build the real deal cloud today you've either got to have a CIO who's a visionary and is willing to make significant dramatic changes to the organization or you have to sideline the CIO and a stack and you actually have to go rogue and you have to build out a whole separate cloud division build out true cloud computing there and then somehow roll that back in or roll IT under it at a later date how do entrepreneurs out there learn from that so what would you share aussie sideline the CIO is always kind of a robe it's not a real long term strategy but you know you want to get the CIO there but what you're basically saying is is that CIOs are doing it because they're bunder pressure CFO cio is under pressure and the saying you just do cloud and they want to go cloud but the monopoly if you will kind of like an old mainframe mindset is pushing back and what they'll do is they'll throw some cloud out there and call it cloud right is that what you saying and they're not really doing real clout is that what you're saying I'm saying that just running just providing virtual servers on demand is not a cloud and if you look at the bar that in Amazon or Google or the pioneers in cloud or set it's about very low friction self-service IT capabilities which can only be delivered through automation and you know i'll tell you a brief story about a colleague of mine who's now at VMware and I want to mention name he was at credit suisse they built one of the first real deal clouds there five years ago and as soon as they had it up as saucers portal in UI and API and everything soon as they brought it up they put in a ticket wall because the IT support staff felt threatened that people could turn on their own servers and they didn't want them to so they said fill out a ticket and then we'll use your password and you hurt me and your credentials to turn on a server for you so that that's the sort of mindset facade was needed to keep the heat shield almost from the attacks right from the sabotage that was yet it's not so much sabotage it's you know any organization that builds up is going to send out the antibodies when ever you put something really distinctive and new in it and to Randy's point and actually to Barnard's about architecture if you try to take the way things have been built up until now and just drop them into a set of virtualized servers and say that's cloud it isn't it's basically taking a and creating a virtual version of your old data center that's not going to get you where you want to go okay so so play out how you think it's going to go down you guys think it's gonna be organically bottom-up or top down or both I mean how is this goes like client-server kind of evolved that way you know some pcs were hanging around lands came around so is it going to be a slow roll can or Big Bang I was a very interesting I heard a guy from Forrester this morning talked and he said and if you might know Forrester came out with a report not too long ago that was something like building your own private cloud it's a pipe dream or is it like it's much harder than you might expect and the interesting stat that he came out with was if you ask enterprise developers something like twenty five percent of them are doing cloud-based stuff typically an Amazon if you go to the infrastructure group something like six percent of them say oh yeah we're doing something around cloud and that told me two things one there's a lot of stuff going on that is stealthy or semi stealthy and the second is there's a big bow wave of stuff that's being done up in some public provider that's going to somehow go into production and I don't that going to go in production that public provider or if eventually the development team is going to come back to the ops team and say I've got a gift for you I'd like you to start running it and by the way it's designed as a cloud its architects as a cloud and you need to have the infrastructure to support them so it's ready you open the open the president I happen to have a cloud right here is that way well so it's a very part of me that was a very interesting set of stats because that implies there's a lot of impending change kept going coming down the road toward internal IT groups well we've talked about bursting out you know taking the enterprise and bursting out to the cloud a lot of the app development a lot of the the pre-production versions of these apps exist in the cloud and what's going to happen is as soon as you open the door and people are feeling safe enough it's going to be inbound not bursting out it's going to be bursting in Randy one of the one of the things I'm hearing is that data security is the number one issue around cloud can you talk a little bit about that from your experience so I is that true or is it not true I think it's a little overblown I mean security is definitely a concern I mean it would be you would be foolish not to be concerned about it but I think you are going to take the same steps you would if you are going to use now its source data center facility managed hosting I mean it's not there I think one of the things that's really humorous about this is people get really worried about the hypervisor when the hypervisors are relatively proven relatively secure technology but then they ignore things like vlans which are completely unauthenticated and everybody assumes are secure but in actually a cloud environment they're far less secure so there's there's a weird disconnect between what is a real security issue in the cloud and what people's concerns are because they don't understand the underlying technologies or structure so much and then when you look at some of the folks who are building certain offerings there are kind of on demand private cloud offerings that people are working on we're not going to share your server and pretty much all those issues go away and so it's just it's really it it's not some things have changed most of remain the same if you if you take your scent your same kinds of what that you go about enforcing security today behind the firewall and bring them out to the cloud they mostly translate actually and not to confuse the issue you've got security and then you've got the pragmatic issues of compliance most of these people most of these organizations live under a cloud you'll pardon the expression which is their requirement to be compliant with various kinds of regulation whether it's defined by the industry by the enterprise regulatory and being compliant means hitting the checklist those checklists have been built on the back of last generations architectures last generations technologies how do you determine whether a cloud implementation of a production app is compliant these guys are very conservative if there's any risk of not meeting compliance well that's a big message out your way that was a big message here for VMware in this hybrid cloud was that compliance is was one of the things that they were wrapping around that I mean is that a real deal is that going to be good is that going to be no thank you i think compliance has to change not so much the technology i mean really what do we think is is valid and all of these aspects of compliance have got to be revisited so I was doing security before a lot of the regulations went in for compliance and in the early days kind of mid 90s and the focus was around actually building secure systems and there's a certain amount of best practices that came out of that and then those were codified into a lot of the regulations and those those codifications of those best practices are about 10 or 15 years old a lot of the time and so the way that they don't translate to the cloud is if you just take them you know peace if you just say look we have to have a perimeter firewall you're on a cloud where are you going to put your perimeter firewall right no parameter right but you know should you have host-based firewall should you have an intrusion detection yet all of that trans the problem is is that you have to you know we've been moving away from a perimeter eyes dworld for 15-plus years but you still see a lot of organization security organizations that don't know how to provide real deal security you know clinging to what's easiest as opposed to trying to figure out what is real security how does that mesh with the compliance requirements they have and coming up with a strategy then that melds those two and most of those strategies will actually translate directly to the cloud because it's about bringing the security closer to the data absolutely one of the things that's happening here guys is cloud service providers are very visible in the announcements and it's-- changing and that IT can provide the kinds of services that cloud service providers can provide and dave vellante Wikibon and i were talking about well that might not be true that cloud surprise will always stay at a bit of head we had verizon on yesterday talking about some of their things is the cloud service provider model going to be a head of IT and will that be the security compliance component of IT how do you guys see the whole cloud service provider evolving all the above observations predictions it to believe that somebody like Verizon is at the leading edge of winning God services is but I don't want to dig on them too much but it is it makes sense if you if you actually look at the leader that's amazon and in 2009 amazon had 43 major releases for per month who can keep up with that pace right Google Yahoo maybe Microsoft but certainly not any of the major telcos service riders are not geared up to be software development or featured delivery shops and the same can be said of most IT department so you look at any of these projects as being you know two to three-year kinds of engagements that you know they're going to do six to nine months of due diligence on in our engagement and with the largest telco in Korea one of the largest in asia pac we stood up their private cloud in eight weeks eight weeks soup to nuts so so what's the prediction on the viability and position of the product the answers providers they you guys have to get in the game they've got they've got to build out more capabilities and they've got to stop worrying about the virtualization piece which is trivial and start thinking about the portfolio services that run on top of that platform is a surface ice cream mobile device offerings integration to 3g and wireless systems enabling new mobile apps social media apps they've really got to think about how what's the new set of cloud applications that's driving Amazon to 80,000 servers and more than half a million VMs in four years time what is that I mean the enterprise is not adopting right now these guys are going to get in the game by actually going to where the fire is not where the smoke is and then they better actually build you know cloud class systems in the same way that Amazon or Google does and they've got have ecosystem of services that actually allows them to be competitive on a portfolio basis not on a virtual machine-based right and they'll probably really about that do you rain I don't feel strongly about it they'll they'll distinguish themselves on the basis of either markets they serve geographic markets industries or the collections of added value features that they lend us realized it okay final question to wrap up guys because I look at the clock a little bit long what is the outlook of cloud and just give your perspective you know just from your entrepreneurial position and also as a practitioner as a guru all of you guys are there in the trenches you're building businesses you're getting stuff done just share in your mind what this future will unroll to look like I mean will it really be game-changing what are some of the things that you may see which is a vision well if it already is a game change what the focus is right now for the next few years it's going to be all mm ops and apps I mean its operations making the management of the infrastructure work correctly and building the next generation but the cloud forward apps full stop Bernard where do you go from that I'm well or your perspective I mean you're there you're the thing that I that you know is there's no question my mind in five years or ten years we will look back on the way I T has been done with this kind of very manual very long time the way we look back on you know when you see a movie you see somebody hand crank in a car let's go absolutely no yeah that was quaint and that was good but there's a reason why we don't do it anyway dialing a phone and we're dialing a phone and so I for sure there's no question there's gonna be a lot of pain between now and your ex and that pain is going to be localized in two different groups but for sure this is this is the way I t's gonna be done in the future no question about that that this is the biggest disruption that there's been to the IT industry in 30 years and it will be a 20 year transition and if you look at how many mainframe companies are still standing in the same way that they were standing before you that just tells you the amount of opportunity there it is huge there are all kinds of ways for you to figure out parts of this this equation solutions for different parts of the problems here which are enormous is Bernard and rich can tell you I mean there's just a huge number of problems to solve here there's all kinds of clever ways that you can get in the game and you can be involved you could be part of the disruption rather than be part of the disrupted and that would be my key message disrupt don't be disrupted 30 years for disruption 20 years of growth will be covering it on cloud angle calm and SiliconANGLE com thanks guys so much rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias in the trenches true entrepreneurs been there done that from the beginning and now going to ride the wave so good luck with everything and we'll check back in with you thank you so much thanks John