>> Announcer: Live from midtown Manhattan, it's the Cube. Covering Big Data New York City 2017. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem sponsors. >> Welcome back everyone, we are here live in New York City, in Manhattan for BigData NYC, our event we've been doing for five years in conjunction with Strata Data which is formerly Strata Hadoop, which was formerly Strata Conference, formerly Hadoop World. We've been covering the big data space going on ten years now. This is the Cube. I'm here with Aaron Kalb, whose Head of Product and co-founder at Alation. Welcome to the cube. >> Aaron Kalb: Thank you so much for having me. >> Great to have you on, so co-founder head of product, love these conversations because you're also co-founder, so it's your company, you got a lot of equity interest in that, but also head of product you get to have the 20 mile stare, on what the future looks, while inventing it today, bringing it to market. So you guys have an interesting take on the collaboration of data. Talk about what the means, what's the motivation behind that positioning, what's the core thesis around Alation? >> Totally so the thing we've observed is a lot of people working in the data space, are concerned about the data itself. How can we make it cheaper to store, faster to process. And we're really concerned with the human side of it. Data's only valuable if it's used by people, how do we help people find the data, understand the data, trust in the data, and that involves a mix of algorithmic approaches and also human collaboration, both human to human and human to computer to get that all organized. >> John Furrier: It's interesting you have a symbolics background from Stanford, worked at Apple, involved in Siri, all this kind of futuristic stuff. You can't go a day without hearing about Alexia is going to have voice-activated, you've got Siri. AI is taking a really big part of this. Obviously all of the hype right now, but what it means is the software is going to play a key role as an interface. And this symbolic systems almost brings on this neural network kind of vibe, where objects, data, plays a critical role. >> Oh, absolutely, yeah, and in the early days when we were co-founding the company, we talked about what is Siri for the enterprise? Right, I was you know very excited to work on Siri, and it's really a kind of fun gimmick, and it's really useful when you're in the car, your hands are covered in cookie dough, but if you could answer questions like what was revenue last quarter in the UK and get the right answer fast, and have that dialogue, oh do you mean fiscal quarter or calendar quarter. Do you mean UK including Ireland, or whatever it is. That would really enable better decisions and a better outcome. >> I was worried that Siri might do something here. Hey Siri, oh there it is, okay be careful, I don't want it to answer and take over my job. >> (laughs) >> Automation will take away the job, maybe Siri will be doing interviews. Okay let's take a step back. You guys are doing well as a start up, you've got some great funding, great investors. How are you guys doing on the product? Give us a quick highlight on where you guys are, obviously this is BigData NYC a lot going on, it's Manhattan, you've got financial services, big industry here. You've got the Strata Data event which is the classic Hadoop industry that's morphed into data. Which really is overlapping with cloud, IoTs application developments all kind of coming together. How do you guys fit into that world? >> Yeah, absolutely, so the idea of the data lake is kind of interesting. Psychologically it's sort of a hoarder mentality, oh everything I've ever had I want to keep in the attic, because I might need it one day. Great opportunity to evolve these new streams of data, with IoT and what not, but just cause you can get to it physically doesn't mean it's easy to find the thing you want, the needle in all that big haystack and to distinguish from among all the different assets that are available, which is the one that is actually trustworthy for your need. So we find that all these trends make the need for a catalog to kind of organize that information and get what you want all the more valuable. >> This has come up a lot, I want to get into the integration piece and how you're dealing with your partnerships, but the data lake integration has been huge, and having the catalog has come up with, has been the buzz. Foundationally if you will saying catalog is important. Why is it important to do the catalog work up front, with a lot of the data strategies? >> It's a great question, so, we see data cataloging as step zero. Before you can prep the data in a tool like Trifacta, PACSAT, or Kylo. Before you can visualize it in a tool like Tableau, or MicroStrategy. Before you can do some sort of cool prediction of what's going to happen in the future, with a data science engine, before any of that. These are all garbage in garbage out processes. The step zero is find the relevant data. Understand it so you can get it in the right format. Trust that it's good and then you can do whatever comes next >> And governance has become a key thing here, we've heard of the regulations, GDPR outside of the United States, but also that's going to have an arms length reach over into the United States impact. So these little decisions, and there's going to be an Equifax someday out there. Another one's probably going to come around the corner. How does the policy injection change the catalog equation? A lot of people are building machine learning algorithms on top of catalogs, and they're worried they might have to rewrite everything. How do you balance the trade off between good catalog design and flexibility on the algorithm side? >> Totally yes it's a complicated thing with governance and consumption right. There's people who are concerned with keeping the data safe, and there are people concerned with turning that data into real value, and these can seem to be at odds. What we find is actually a catalog as a foundation for both, and they are not as opposed as they seem. What Alation fundamentally does is we make a map of where the data is, who's using what data, when, how. And that can actually be helpful if your goal is to say let's follow in the footsteps of the best analyst and make more insights generated or if you want to say, hey this data is being used a lot, let's make sure it's being used correctly. >> And by the right people. >> And by the right people exactly >> Equifax they were fishing that pond dry months, months before it actually happened. With good tools like this they might have seen this right? Am I getting it right? >> That's exactly right, how can you observe what's going on to make sure it's compliant and that the answers are correct and that it's happening quickly and driving results. >> So in a way you're taking the collective intelligence of the user behavior and using that into understanding what to do with the data modeling? >> That's exactly right. We want to make each person in your organization as knowledgeable as all of their peers combined. >> So the benefit then for the customer would be if you see something that's developing you can double down on it. And if the users are using a lot of data, then you can provision more technology, more software. >> Absolutely, absolutely. It's sort of like when I was going to Stanford, there was a place where the grass was all dead, because people were riding their bikes diagonally across it. And then somebody smart was like, we're going to put a real gravel path there. So the infrastructure should follow the usage, instead of being something you try to enforce on people. >> It's a classic design meme that goes around. Good design is here, the more effective design is the path. >> Exactly. >> So let's get into the integration. So one of the hot topics here this year obviously besides cloud and AI, with cloud really being more the driver, the tailwind for the growth, AI being more the futuristic head room, is integration. You guys have some partnerships that you announced with integration, what are some of the key ones, and why are they important? >> Absolutely, so, there have been attempts in the past to centralize all the data in one place have one warehouse or one lake have one BI tool. And those generally fail, for different reasons, different teams pick different stacks that work for them. What we think is important is the single source of reference One hub with spokes out to all those different points. If you think about it it's like Google, it's one index of the whole web even though the web is distributed all over the place. To make that happen it's very important that we have partnerships to get data in from various sources. So we have partnerships with database vendors, with Cloudera and Hortonworks, with different BI tools. What's new are a few things. One is with Cloudera Navigator, they have great technical metadata around security and lineage over HGFS, and that's a way to bolster our catalog to go even deeper into what's happening in the files before things get surfaced and higher for places where we have a deeper offering today. >> So it's almost a connector to them in a way, you kind of share data. >> That's exactly right, we've a lot of different connectors, this is one new one that we have. Another, go ahead. >> I was going to go ahead continue. >> I was just going to say another place that is exciting is data prep tools, so Trifacta and Paxata are both places where you can find and understand an alation and then begin to manipulate in those tools. We announced with Paxata yesterday, the ability to click to profile, so if you want to actually see what's in some raw compressed avro file, you can see that in one click. >> It's interesting, Paxata has really been almost lapping, Trifacta because they were the leader in my mind, but now you've got like a Nascar race going on between the two firms, because data wrangling is a huge issue. Data prep is where everyone is stuck right now, they just want to do the data science, it's interesting. >> They are both amazing companies and I'm happy to partner with both. And actually Trifacta and Alation have a lot of joint customers we're psyched to work with as well. I think what's interesting is that data prep, and this is beginning to happen with analyst definitions of that field. It isn't just preparing the data to be used, getting it cleaned and shaped, it's also preparing the humans to use the data giving them the confidence, the tools, the knowledge to know how to manipulate it. >> And it's great progress. So the question I wanted to ask is now the other big trend here is, I mean it's kind of a subtext in this show, it's not really front and center but we've been seeing it kind of emerge as a concept, we see in the cloud world, on premise vs cloud. On premise a lot of people bring in the dev ops model in, and saying I may move to the cloud for bursting and some native applications, but at the end of the day there is a lot of work going on on premise. A lot of companies are kind of cleaning house, retooling, replatforming, whatever you want to do resetting. They are kind of getting their house in order to do on prem cloud ops, meaning a business model of cloud operations on site. A lot of people doing that, that will impact the story, it's going to impact some of the server modeling, that's a hot trend. How do you guys deal with the on premise cloud dynamic? >> Totally, so we just want to do what's right for the customer, so we deploy both on prem and in the cloud and then from wherever the Alation server is it will point to usually a mix of sources, some that are in the cloud like vetshifter S3 often with Amazon today, and also sources that are on prem. I do think I'm seeing a trend more and more toward the cloud and we have people that are migrating from HGFS to S3 is one thing we hear a lot about it. Strata with sort of dupe interest. But I think what's happening is people are realizing as each Equifax in turn happens, that this old wild west model of oh you surround your bank with people on horseback and it's physically in one place. With data it isn't like that, most people are saying I'd rather have the A+ teams at Salesforce or Amazon or Google be responsible for my security, then the people I can get over in the midwest. >> And the Paxata guys have loved the term Data Democracy, because that is really democratization, making the data free but also having the governance thing. So tell me about the Data Lake governance, because I've never loved the term Data Lake, I think it's more of a data ocean, but now you see data lake, data lake, data lake. Are they just silos of data lakes happening now? Are people trying to connect them? That's key, so that's been a key trend here. How do you handle the governance across multiple data lakes? >> That's right so the key is to have that single source of reference, so that regardless of which lake or warehouse, or little siloed Sequel server somewhere, that you can search in a single portal and find that thing no matter where it is. >> John: Can you guys do that? >> We can do that, yeah, I think the metaphor for people who haven't seen it really is Google, if you think about it, you don't even know what physical server a webpage is hosted from. >> Data lakes should just be invisible >> Exactly. >> So your interfacing with multiple data lakes, that's a value proposition for you. >> That's right so it could be on prem or in the cloud, multi-cloud. >> Can you share an example of a customer that uses that and kind of how it's laid out? >> Absolutely, so one great example of an interesting data environment is eBay. They have the biggest teradata warehouse in the world. They also have I believe two huge data lakes, they have hive on top of that, and Presto is used to sort of virtualize it across a mixture of teradata, and hive and then direct Presto query It gets very complicated, and they have, they are a very data driven organization, so they have people who are product owners who are in jobs where data isn't in their job title and they know how to look at excel and look at numbers and make choices, but they aren't real data people. Alation provides that accessibility so that they can understand it. >> We used to call the Hadoop world the car show for the data world, where for a long time it was about the engine what was doing what, and then it became, what's the car, and now how's it drive. Seeing that same evolution now where all that stuff has to get done under the hood. >> Aaron: Exactly. >> But there are still people who care about that, right. They are the mechanics, they are the plumbers, whatever you want to call them, but then the data science are the guys really driving things and now end users potentially, and even applications bots or what nots. It seems to evolve, that's where we're kind of seeing the show change a little bit, and that's kind of where you see some of the AI things. I want to get your thoughts on how you or your guys are using AI, how you see AI, if it's AI at all if it's just machine learning as a baby step into AI, we all know what AI could be, but it's really just machine learning now. How do you guys use quote AI and how has it evolved? >> It's a really insightful question and a great metaphor that I love. If you think about it, it used to be how do you build the car, and now I can drive the car even though I couldn't build it or even fix it, and soon I don't even have to drive the car, the car will just drive me, all I have to know is where I want to go. That's sortof the progression that we see as well. There's a lot of talk about deep learning, all these different approaches, and it's super interesting and exciting. But I think even more interesting than the algorithms are the applications. And so for us it's like today how do we get that turn by turn directions where we say turn left at the light if you want to get there And eventually you know maybe the computer can do it for you The thing that is also interesting is to make these algorithms work no matter how good your algorithm is it's all based on the quality of your training data. >> John: Which is a historical data. Historical data in essence the more historical data you have you need that to train the data. >> Exactly right, and we call this behavior IO how do we look at all the prior human behavior to drive better behavior in the future. And I think the key for us is we don't want to have a bunch of unpaid >> John: You can actually get that URL behavioral IO. >> We should do it before it's too late (Both laugh) >> We're live right now, go register that Patrick. >> Yeah so the goal is we don't want to have a bunch of unpaid interns trying to manually attack things, that's error prone and that's slow. I look at things like Luis von Ahn over at CMU, he does a thing where as you're writing in a CAPTCHA to get an email account you're also helping Google recognize a hard to read address or a piece of text from books. >> John: If you shoot the arrow forward, you just take this kind of forward, you almost think augmented reality is a pretext to what we might see for what you're talking about and ultimately VR are you seeing some of the use cases for virtual reality be very enterprise oriented or even end consumer. I mean Tom Brady the best quarterback of all time, he uses virtual reality to play the offense virtually before every game, he's a power user, in pharma you see them using virtual reality to do data mining without being in the lab, so lab tests. So you're seeing augmentation coming in to this turn by turn direction analogy. >> It's exactly, I think it's the other half of it. So we use AI, we use techniques to get great data from people and then we do extra work watching their behavior to learn what's right. And to figure out if there are recommendations, but then you serve those recommendations, either it's Google glasses it appears right there in your field of view. We just have to figure out how do we make sure, that in a moment of you're making a dashboard, or you're making a choice that you have that information right on hand. >> So since you're a technical geek, and a lot of folks would love to talk about this, so I'll ask you a tough question cause this is something everyone is trying to chase for the holy grail. How do you get the right piece of data at the right place at the right time, given that you have all these legacy silos, latencies and network issues as well, so you've got a data warehouse, you've got stuff in cold storage, and I've got an app and I'm doing something, there could be any points of data in the world that could be in milliseconds potentially on my phone or in my device my internet of thing wearable. How do you make that happen? Because that's the struggle, at the same time keep all the compliance and all the overhead involved, is it more compute, is it an architectural challenge how do you view that because this is the big challenge of our time. >> Yeah again I actually think it's the human challenge more than the technology challenge. It is true that there is data all over the place kind of gathering dust, but again if you think about Google, billions of web pages, I only care about the one I'm about to use. So for us it's really about being in that moment of writing a query, building a chart, how do we say in that moment, hey you're using an out of date definition of profit. Or hey the database you chose to use, the one thing you chose out of the millions that is actually is broken and stale. And we have interventions to do that with our partners and through our own first party apps that actually change how decisions get made at companies. >> So to make that happen, if I imagine it, you'd have to need access to the data, and then write software that is contextually aware to then run, compute, in context to the user interaction. >> It's exactly right, back to the turn by turn directions concept you have to know both where you're trying to go and where you are. And so for us that can be the from where I'm writing a Sequel statement after join we can suggest the table most commonly joined with that, but also overlay onto that the fact that the most commonly joined table was deprecated by a data steward data curator. So that's the moment that we can change the behavior from bad to good. >> So a chief data officer out there, we've got to wrap up, but I wanted to ask one final question, There's a chief data officer out there they might be empowered or they might be just a CFO assistant that's managing compliance, either way, someone's going to be empowered in an organization to drive data science and data value forward because there is so much proof that data science works. From military to play you're seeing examples where being data driven actually has benefits. So everyone is trying to get there. How do you explain the vision of Alation to that prospect? Because they have so much to select from, there's so much noise, there's like, we call it the tool shed out there, there's like a zillion tools out there there's like a zillion platforms, some tools are trying to turn into something else, a hammer is trying to be a lawnmower. So they've got to be careful on who the select, so what's the vision of Alation to that chief data officer, or that person in charge of analytics to scale operational analytics. >> Absolutely so we say to the CDO we have a shared vision for this place where your company is making decisions based on data, instead of based on gut, or expensive consultants months too late. And the way we get there, the reason Alation adds value is, we're sort of the last tool you have to buy, because with this lake mentality, you've got your tool shed with all the tools, you've got your library with all the books, but they're just in a pile on the floor, if you had a tool that had everything organized, so you just said hey robot, I need an hammer and this size nail and this text book on this set of information and it could just come to you, and it would be correct and it would be quick, then you could actually get value out of all the expense you've already put in this infrastructure, that's especially true on the lake. >> And also tools describe the way the works done so in that model tools can be in the tool shed no one needs to know it's in there. >> Aaron: Exactly. >> You guys can help scale that. Well congratulations and just how far along are you guys in terms of number of employees, how many customers do you have? If you can share that, I don't know if that's confidential or what not >> Absolutely, so we're small but growing very fast planning to double in the next year, and in terms of customers, we've got 85 customers including some really big names. I mentioned eBay, Pfizer, Safeway Albertsons, Tesco, Meijer. >> And what are they saying to you guys, why are they buying, why are they happy? >> They share that same vision of a more data driven enterprise, where humans are empowered to find out, understand, and trust data to make more informed choices for the business, and that's why they come and come back. >> And that's the product roadmap, ethos, for you guys that's the guiding principle? >> Yeah the ultimate goal is to empower humans with information. >> Alright Aaron thanks for coming on the Cube. Aaron Kalb, co-founder head of product for Alation here in New York City for BigData NYC and also Strata Data I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. We'll be right back with more after this short break.