>> from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering active eo 2019. Data driven you by activity. >> Welcome back to Boston. Everybody watching the Cube, the leader and on the ground tech coverage money was David wanted here with my co host. A student of John for is also in the house. This is active FiOS data driven 19 conference. They're second year, John. Her stick is here is the co founder and CEO of on shape John. Thanks for coming in the Cube. Great to have you great to be here. So love the cofounder. I always ask your father. Why did you start the company? Well, we found it on shape because >> we saw an opportunity to improve how every product on Earth gets developed. Let people who develop products do it faster, B'more, innovative, and do it through a new generation software platform based in the cloud. That's our vision for on shape, That's why. Okay, >> so that's great. You start with the widened. The what is just new generation software capabilities to build the great products visualized actually create >> way took the power of cloud web and mobile and used it to re implement a lot of the classic tools for product development. Three d cad Data management Workflow Bill of Materials. He's may not mean anything to you, but they mean a lot to product developers, and we believe by by moving in the cloud by rethinking them for the cloud we can give people capabilities they've never had before. >> John, bring us in tight a little bit. So you know, I think I've heard a lot the last few years. It's like, Well, I could just do everything a simulation computer simulation. We can have all these models. They could make their three D printings changing the way I build prototypes. So what's kind of state of the state and in your fields? So >> the state of the Art R field is to model product in three dimensions in the computer before you build it for lots of reasons. For simulation for three D printing, you have to have a CAD model to do it, to see how it'll look, how parts fit together, how much it will cost. Really, every product today is built twice. First, it's built in the computer in three dimensions, is a digital model, then it's built in the real world, and what we're trying to do is make those three D modeling and data management collaboration tools to take them to a whole nother level to turbo charge it, if you will, so that teams can can work together even if they're distribute around the world. They work faster. They don't have to pay a tax to install and Karen feed for these systems. You're very complicated, a whole bunch of other benefits. So we talk about the cloud model >> you're talking about a sass model, a subscription model of different customer experience, all of the above, all of the above. Yeah, it's definitely a sass model we do on Ly SAS Way >> hosted and, uh, Amazon. Eight of us were all in with Amazon. It's a it's a subscription model, and we provide a much better, much more modern, better, more productive experience for the user CIA disrupting the traditional >> cad business. Is that Is that right? I mean more than cat cat Plus because there's no such thing as a cad company anymore. We're essentially disrupting the systems that we built because I've been in this business 30 38 years now. I've been doing this. I feel like I'm about half done. Really, really talking about >> your career. Way to start out. Well, I grew up in Chicago. I went to M I t and majored in mechanical engineering and knew howto program computers. And I go to get an internship in 1981 and they say computers, mechanical injury. You need to work on CAD. And I haven't stopped since, you know, because Because we're not done, you know, still still working here. You would >> have me, right? You can't let your weight go dynamic way before we get off on the M I t. Thing you were part of, you know, quite well known group. And Emmet tell us a little bit >> about what you're talking about. The American society of Mechanical Engineer >> has may I was actually an officer and and as any I know your great great events, but the number 21 comes to >> mind you're talking about the MIT blackjack team? Yes, I was, ah, player on the MIT blackjack team, and it's the team featured in movies, TV shows and all that. Yeah, very exciting thing to be doing while I was working at the cath lab is a grad student, you know, doing pursuing my legitimate career. There is also also, uh, playing blackjack. Okay, so you got to add some color to that. So where is the goal of the M I T. Blackjack team? What did you guys do? The goal of the M I t blackjack team was honestly, to make money using legal means of skill to Teo obtain an edge playing blackjack. And that's what we did using. Guess what? The theme of data which ties into this data driven conference and what active Eo is doing. I wish we had some of the data tools of today. I wish we had those 30 years ago. We could have We could have done even more, but it really was to win money through skill. Okay, so So you you weren't wired. Is that right? I mean, it was all sort of No, at the time, you could not use a computer in the casino. Legally, it was illegal to use a computer, so we didn't use it. We use the computer to train ourselves to analyze data. To give a systems is very common. But in the casino itself, we were just operating with good old, you know, good. This computer. Okay. And this computer would what you would you would you would count cards you would try to predict using your yeah, count cards and predict in card. Very good observation there. Card counting is really essentially prediction. In a sense, it's knowing when the remaining cards to be dealt are favorable to the player. That's the goal card counting and other systems we used. We had some proprietary systems to that were very, very not very well known. But it was all about knowing when you had an edge and when you did betting a lot of money and when you didn't betting less double doubling down on high probability situations, so on, So did that proceed Or did that catalyze like, you know, four decks, eight decks, 12 12 decks or if they were already multiple decks. So I don't think we drove them to have more decks. But we did our team. Really. Some of the systems are team Pioneer did drive some changes in the game, which are somewhat subtle. I could get into it, you know, I don't know how much time we have that they were minor changes that our team drove. The multiple decks were already are already well established. By the time my team came up, how did you guys do you know it was your record? I like to say we won millions of dollars during the time I was associated with the team and pretty pretty consistently won. We didn't win every day or every weekend, but we'd run a project for, say, six months at a time. We called it a bank kind of like a fund, if you will, into no six months periods we never lost. We always won something, sometimes quite a bit, where it was part of your data model understanding of certain casinos where there's certain casinos that were more friendly to your methodology. Yes, certain casinos have either differences in rules or, more commonly, differences in what I just call conditions like, for instance, obviously there's a lot of people betting a lot of money. It's easier to blend in, and that's a good thing for us. It could be there there. Their aggressiveness about trying to find card counters right would vary from casino to casino, those kinds of factors and occasionally minor rule variations to help us out. So you're very welcome at because he knows is that well, I once that welcome, I've actually been been Bardet many facilities tell us about that. Well, you get, you get barred, you get usually quite politely asked toe leave by some big guy, sometimes a big person, but sometimes just just honestly, people who like you will just come over and say, Hey, John, we'd rather you not play blackjack here, you know that. You know, we only played in very upstanding professional kind of facilities, but still, the message was clear. You know, you're not welcome here in Las Vegas. They're allowed to bar you from the premises with no reason given in Las Vegas. It's just the law there in Atlantic City. That was not the law. But in Vegas they could bar you and just say you're not welcome. If you come back, we'll arrest you for trespassing. Yeah, And you really think you said everything you did was legal? You know, we kind of gaming the system, I guess through, you know, displaying well probabilities and playing well. But this interesting soothe casinos. Khun, rig the system, right? They could never lose, but the >> players has ever get a bet against the House. >> How did >> you did you at all apply that experience? Your affinity to data to you know, Let's fast forward to where you are now, so I think I learned a lot of lessons playing blackjack that apply to my career and design software tools. It's solid works my old company and now death. So System, who acquired solid words and nowt on shape I learned about data and rigor, could be very powerful tools to win. I learned that even when everyone you know will tell you you can't win, you still can win. You know that a lot of people told me Black Jack would never work. A lot of people told me solid works. We never worked. A lot of people told me on shape would be impossible to build. And you know, you learn that you can win even when other people tell you, Can't you learn that in the long run is a long time? People usually think of what you know, Black Jack. You have to play thousands of hands to really see the edge come out. So I've learned that in business sometimes. You know, sometimes you'll see something happened. You just say, Just stay the course. Everything's gonna work out, right? I've seen that happen. >> Well, they say in business oftentimes, if people tell you it's impossible, you're probably looking at a >> good thing to work on. Yeah. So what's made it? What? What? What was made it ostensibly impossible. How did you overcome that challenge? You mean, >> uh, on >> shape? Come on, Shake. A lot of people thought that that using cloud based tools to build all the product development tools people need would be impossible. Our software tools in product development were modeling three D objects to the precision of the real world. You know that a laptop computer, a wristwatch, a chair, it has to be perfect. It's an incredibly hard problem. We work with large amounts of data. We work with really complex mathematics, huge computing loads, huge graphic loads, interactive response times. All these things add up to people feeling Oh, well, that would never be possible in the cloud. But we believe the opposite is true. We believe we're going to show the world. And in the future, people say, you know We don't understand how you do it without the cloud because there's so much computing require. >> Yeah, right. It seems you know where we're heavy in the cloud space. And if you were talking about this 10 years ago, I could understand some skepticism in 10 2019. All of those things that you mentioned, if I could spin it up, I could do it faster. I can get the resources I need when I needed a good economics. But that's what the clouds built for, as opposed to having to build out. You know, all of these resource is yourself. So what >> was the what was the big technical challenge? Was it was it? Was it latent? See, was it was tooling. So performance is one of the big technical challenges, As you'd imagine, You know, we deliver with on shape we deliver a full set of tools, including CAD formal release management with work flow. If that makes sense to you. Building materials, configurations, industrial grade used by professional companies, thousands of companies around the world. We do that all in a Web browser on any Mac Windows machine. Chromebook Lennox's computer iPad. I look atyou. I mean, we're using. We run on all these devices where the on ly tools in our industry that will run on all these devices and we do that kind of magic. There's nothing install. I could go and run on shape right here in your browser. You don't need a 40 pound laptop, so no, you don't need a 40 pound laptop you don't need. You don't need to install anything. It runs like the way we took our inspiration from tools like I Work Day and Sales Force and Zen Desk and Nets. Sweet. It's just we have to do three D graphics and heavy duty released management. All these complexities that they didn't necessarily have to do. The other thing that was hard was not only a technical challenge like that, but way had to rethink how workflow would happen, how the tools could be better. We didn't just take the old tools and throw him up in a cloud window, we said, How could we make a better way of doing workflow, release management and collaboration than it's ever been done before? So we had to rethink the user experience in the paradigms of the systems. Well, you know, a lot of talk about the edge and if it's relevant for your business. But there's a lot of concerns about the cloud being able to support the edge. But just listening to you, John, it's It's like, Well, everybody says it's impossible. Maybe it's not impossible, but maybe you can solve the speed of light problem. Any thoughts on that? Well, I think all cloud solutions use edge to some degree. Like if you look at any of the systems. I just mentioned sales for us workday, Google Maps. They're using these devices. I mean, it's it's important that you have a good client device. You have better experience. They don't just do everything in the cloud. They say There, there. To me, they're like a carefully orchestrated symphony that says We'll do these things in the core of the cloud, these things near the engineer, the user, and then these things will do right in the client device. So when you're moving around your Google map or when you're looking this big report and sales force you're using the client to this is what are we have some amazing people on her team, like R. We have the fellow who was CTO of Blade Logic. Robbie Ready. And he explains these concepts to make John Russo from Hey came to us from Verizon. These are people who know about big systems, and they helped me understand how we would distribute these workloads. So there's there's no such thing is something that runs completely in the cloud. It has to send something down. So, uh, talk aboutthe company where you're at, you guys have done several raises. You've got thousands of customers. You maybe want to add a couple of zeros to that over time is what's the aspirations? Yeah, correct. We have 1000. The good news is we have thousands of customer cos designing everything you could imagine. Some things never would everything from drones two. We have a company doing nuclear counter terrorism equipment. Amazing stuff. Way have people doing special purpose electric vehicles. We have toys way, have furniture, everything you'd imagined. So that's very gratifying. You us. But thousands of companies is still a small part of the world. This is a $10,000,000,000 a year market with $100,000,000,000 in market cap and literally millions of users. So we have great aspirations to grow our number of users and to grow our tool set capability. So let's talk to him for a second. So $10,000,000,000 current tam are there. Jason sees emerging with all these things, like three D printing and machine intelligence, that that actually could significantly increase the tam when you break out your binoculars or even your telescope. Yes, there are. Jason sees their increasing the tam through. Like you say, new areas drive us So So obviously someone is doing more additive manufacturing. More generative design. They're goingto have more use for tools like ours. Cos the other thing that I observed, if I can add one, it's my own observations. I think design is becoming a greater component of GDP, if you will, like if you look at how much goods in the world are driven by design value versus a decade or two or when I was a child, you know, I just see this is incredible amount, like products are distinguished by design more and more, and so I think that we'll see growth also through through the growth in design as an element of GDP on >> Jonah. I love that observation actually felt like, you know, my tradition. Engineering education. Yeah, didn't get much. A lot of design thing. It wasn't until I was in industry for years. That had a lot of exposure to that. And it's something that we've seen huge explosion last 10 years. And if you talk about automation versus people, it's like the people that designed that creativity is what's going to drive into the >> absolutely, You know, we just surveyed almost 1000 professionals product development leaders. Honestly, I think we haven't published our results yet, So you're getting it. We're about to publish it online, and we found that top of mind is designed process improvements over any particular technology. Be a machine learning, You know, the machine learning is a school for the product development. How did it manufacturers a tool to develop new products, but ultimately they have to have a great process to be competitive in today's very competitive markets. Well, you've seen the effect of the impact that Apple has had on DH sort of awakening people to know the value of grace. Desire absolutely have to go back to the Sony Walkman. You know what happened when I first saw one, right? That's very interesting design. And then, you know, Dark Ages compared to today, you know, I hate to say it. Not a shot at Sony with Sony Wass was the apple? Yeah, era. And what happened? Did they drop the ball on manufacturing? Was it cost to shoot? No. They lost the design leadership poll position. They lost that ability to create a world in pox. Now it's apple. And it's not just apple. You've got Tesla who has lit up the world with exciting design. You've got Dyson. You know, you've got a lot of companies that air saying, you know, it's all about designing those cos it's not that they're cheaper products, certainly rethinking things, pushing. Yeah, the way you feel when you use these products, the senses. So >> that's what the brand experience is becoming. All right. All right, John, thanks >> so much for coming on. The Cuban sharing your experiences with our audience. Well, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure, really? Our pleasure. All right, Keep right. Everybody stupid demand. A volonte, John Furry. We've been back active, eo active data driven 19 from Boston. You're watching the Cube. Thanks