(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the AWS start up showcase, theCUBE's premiere platform and show. This is our second season, episode one of this program. I'm Lisa Martin, your host here with two guests here to talk about open source. Please welcome Andrew Backes, the VP of engineering at Armory, and one of our alumni, Ian Delahorne, the staff site, reliability engineer at Patreon. Guys, it's great to have you on the program. >> Thank you. >> Good to be back. >> We're going to dig into a whole bunch of stuff here in the next fast paced, 15 minutes. But Andrew, let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an overview of Armory, who you guys are, what you do. >> I'd love to. So Armory was founded in 2016 with the vision to help companies unlock innovation through software. And what we're focusing on right now is, helping those companies and make software delivery, continuous, collaborative, scalable, and safe. >> Got it, those are all very important things. Ian help the audience, if anyone isn't familiar with Patreon, it's a very cool platform. Talk to us a little bit about that Ian. >> Absolutely, Patreon is a membership platform for creators to be able to connect with their fans and for fans to be able to subscribe to their favorite creators and help creators get paid and have them earn a living with, just by being connected straight to their audience. >> Very cool, creators like podcasters, even journalists video content writers. >> Absolutely. There's so many, there's everything from like you said, journalists, YouTubers, photographers, 3D modelers. We have a nightclub that's on there, there's several theater groups on there. There's a lot of different creators. I keep discovering new ones every day. >> I like that, I got to check that out, very cool. So Andrew, let's go to your, we talk about enterprise scale and I'm using air quotes here. 'Cause it's a phrase that we use in every conversation in the tech industry, right? Scalability is key. Talk to us about what enterprise scale actually means from Armory's perspective. Why is it so critical? And how do you help enterprises to actually achieve it? >> Yeah, so the, I think a lot of the times when companies think about enterprise scale, they think about the volume of infrastructure, or volume of software that's running at any given time. There's also a few more things that go into that just beyond how many EC2 instances you're running or containers you're running. Also velocity, count how much time does it take you to get features out to your customers and then stability and reliability. Then of course, in enterprises, it isn't as simple as everyone deploying to the same targets. It isn't always just EC2, a lot of the time it's going to be multiple targets, EC2, it's going to be ECS, Lambda. All of these workloads are out there running. And how does a central platform team or a tooling team at a site enable that for users, enable deployment capabilities to those targets? Then of course, on top of that, there's going to be site specific technologies. And how do, how does your deployment tooling integrate with those site specific technologies? >> Is, Andrew is enterprise scale now even more important given the very transformative events, we've seen the last two years? We've seen such acceleration, cloud adoption, digital transformation, really becoming a necessity for businesses to stay alive. Do you think that, that skill now is even more important? >> Definitely, definitely. The, what we see, we've went through a wave of the, the first set of digital transformations, where companies are moving to the cloud and we know that's accelerating quite a bit. So that scale is all moving to the cloud and the amount of multiple targets that are being deployed to at any given moment, they just keep increasing. So that is a concern that companies need to address. >> Let's talk about the value, but we're going to just Spinnaker here in the deployment. But also let's start Andrew with the value that, Armory delivers on top of Spinnaker. What makes this a best of breed solution? >> Yeah, so on top of open-source Spinnaker, there are a lot of other building blocks that you're going to need to deploy at scale. So you're going to need to be able to provide modules or some way of giving your users a reusable building block that is catered to your site. So that is one of the big areas that Armory focuses on, is how can we provide building blocks on top of open source Spinnaker that sites can use to tailor the solution to their needs. >> Got it, tailor it to their needs. Ian let's bring you back into the conversation. Now, talk to us about the business seeds, the compelling event that led Patreon to choose Spinnaker on top of Armory. >> Absolutely. Almost three years ago, we had an outage which resulted in our payment processing slowed down. And that's something we definitely don't want to have happen because this would hinder creator's ability to get paid on time for them to be able to pay their employees, pay their rent, hold that hole, like everything that, everyone that depends on them. And there were many factors that went into this outage and one of them we identified is that it was very hard for us to, with our custom belt deploy tooling, to be able to easily deploy fast and to roll back if things went wrong. So I had used Spinnaker before to previous employer early on, and I knew that, that would be a tool that we could use to solve our problem. The problem was that the SRE team at Patreon at that time was only two people. So Spinnaker is a very complex product. I didn't have the engineering bandwidth to be able to, set up, deploy, manage it on my own. And I had happened to heard of Armory just that week before and was like, "This is the company that could probably help me solve my problems." So I engaged early on with Andrew and the team. And we migrated our customers deployed to, into Spinnaker and help stabilize our deploys and speed them up. >> So you were saying that the deployments were taking way too long before. And of course, as you mentioned from a payment processing perspective, that's people's livelihoods. So that's a pretty serious issue there. You found Armory a week into searching this seems like stuff went pretty quickly. >> And the week before the incident, they had randomly, the, one of the co-founders randomly reached out to me and was like, "We're doing this thing with Armory. You might be interested in this, we're doing this thing with Spinnaker, it's called Armory." And I kind of filed it away. And then they came fortuitous that we were able to use them, like just reach out to them like a week later. >> That is fortuitous, my goodness, what a good outreach and good timing there on Armory's part. And sticking with you a little bit, talk to us about what it is that the business challenges that Armory helps you to resolve? What is it about it that, that just makes you know this is the exact right solution for us? Obviously you talked about not going direct with Spinnaker as a very lean IT team. But what are some of the key business needs that it's solving? >> Yeah, there's several business things that we've been able to leverage Armory for. One of them as I mentioned, they, having a deployment platform that we know will give us, able deploys has been very important. There's been, they have a policy engine module that we use for making sure that certain environments can only be deployed to by certain individuals for compliance issues. We definitely, we use their pipelines as code module for being able to use, build, to build reusable deploy pipelines so that software engineers can easily integrate Spinnaker into their builds. Without having to know a lot about Spinnaker. There's like here, take these, take this pipeline module and add your variables into it, and you'll be off to the races deploying. So those are some of the value adds that Armory has been able to add on top of Spinnaker. On top of that, we use their managed products. So they have a team that's managing our Spinnaker installation, helping us with upgrades, helping up the issues, all that stuff that unlocks us to be able to focus on building our creators. Instead of focusing on operating Spinnaker. >> Andrew, back to you. Talk to me a little bit about as the VP of engineering, the partnership, the relationship that Armory has with Patreon and how symbiotic is it? How much are they helping you to develop the product that Armory is delivering to its customers? >> Yeah, one of the main things we want to make sure we do is help Patreon be successful. So that's, there are going to be some site specific needs there that we want to make sure that we are in tune with and that we're helping with, but really we view it as a partnership. So, Patreon has worked with us. Well, I can't believe it's been three years or kind of a little bit more now. But it's, it, we have had a lot of inner, a lot of feedback sessions, a lot of going back and forth on how we can improve our product to meet the needs of Patreon better. And then of course the wider market. So one thing that is neat about seeing a smaller team, SRE team that Ian is on, is they can depend on us more. They have less bandwidth with themselves to invest into their tooling. So that's the opportunity for us to provide those more mature building blocks to them. So that they can combine those in a way that makes them, that meets their needs and their business needs. >> And Ian, back to you, talk to me about how has the partnership with Armory? You said it's been almost three years now. How has that helped you do your job better as an SRE? What are some of the advantages of that, to that role? >> Yeah, absolutely. Armory has been a great partner to work with. We've used their expertise in helping to bring new features into the open-source Spinnaker. Especially when we decided that we wanted to not only deploy to EC2 instances, but we wanted to play to elastic container service and Lambdas to shift from our normal instance based deploys into the containerization. There were several warrants around the existing elastic container service deploy, and Lambda deploys that we were able to work with Armory and have them champion some changes inside open-source as well as their custom modules to help us be able to shift our displays to those targets. >> Got it. Andrew back over to you, talk to me, I want to walk through, you talked about from an enterprise scale perspective, some of the absolute critical components there. But I want to talk about what Armory has done to help customers like Patreon to address things like speed to market, customer satisfaction as Ian was talking about, the compelling event was payment processing. A lot of content creators could have been in trouble there. Talk to, walk me through how you're actually solving those key challenges that not just Patreon is facing, but enterprises across industries. >> Yeah, of course, so the, talking to specifically to what brought Ian in was, a problem that they needed to fix inside of their system. So when you are rolling out a change like that, you want it to be fast. You want to get that chain, change out very quickly, but you also want to make sure that the deployment system itself is stable and reliable. So the last thing you're going to want is any sort of hiccup with the tool that you're using to fix your product, to roll out changes to your customers. So that is a key focus area for us in everything that we do is we make sure that whenever we're building features that are going to expand capabilities, deployment capabilities. That we're, we are focusing firstly on stability and reliability of the deployment system itself. So those are a few features, a few focus areas that we continually build into the product. And you can, I mean, I'm sure a lot of enterprises know that as soon as you start doing things at massive scale, sometimes the stability and reliability, can, you'll be jeopardized a little bit. Or you start hitting against those limits or what are the, what walls do you encounter? So one of the key things we're doing is building ahead of that, making sure that our features are enabling users to hit deployment scales they've never seen or imagined before. So that's a big part of what Armory is. >> Ian, can you add a number to that in terms of the before Armory and the after in terms of that velocity? >> Absolutely, before Armory our deploys would take some times, somewhere around 45 minutes. And we cut that in half, if not more to down to like the like 16 to 20 minute ranges where we are currently deploying to a few hundred hosts. So, and that is the previous deployment strategy would take longer. If we scaled up the number of instances for big events, like our payment processing we do the first of the month currently. So being able to have that and know that our deploys will take about the same amount of time each time, it will be faster. That helps us bring features to create some fans a lot faster. And the stability aspect has also been very important, knowing that we have a secure way to roll back if needed, which you didn't have previously in case something goes wrong, that's been extremely useful. >> And I can imagine, Ian that velocity is critical because I mean more and more and more these days, there are content creators everywhere in so many different categories that we've talked about. Even nightclubs, that to be able to deliver that velocity through a part, a technology like Armory is table-stakes for against business. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Andrew, back over to you. I want to kind of finish out here with, in the last couple of years where things have been dynamic. Have you seen any leading indices? I know you guys work with enterprises across organizations and Fortune 500s. But have you seen any industries in particular that are really leaning on Armory to help them achieve that velocity that we've been talking about? >> We have a pretty good spread across the market, but since we are focused on cloud, to deploy to cloud technologies, that's one of the main value props for Armory. So that's going to be enabling deployments to AWS in similar clouds. So the companies that we work with are really ones that have either already gone through that transformation or are on their journey. Then of course, now Kubernetes is a force, it's kind of taken over. So we're getting pulled into even more companies that are embracing Kubernetes. So I wouldn't say that there's an overall trend, but we have customers all across the Fortune 500, all across mid-market to Fortune 500. So there's depending on the complexity of the corporation itself or the enterprise itself we're able to do. I think Ian mentioned our policy engine and a few other features that are really tailored to companies that have restricted environments and moving into the cloud. >> Got it, and that's absolutely critical these days to help organizations pivot multiple times and to get that speed to market. 'Cause that's, of course as consumers, whether we're on the business side or the commercial side, we have an expectation that we're going to be able to get whatever we want A-S-A-P. And especially if that's payments processing, that's pretty critical. Guys, thank you for joining me today, talking about Armory, built on Spinnaker, what it's doing for customers like Patreon. We appreciate your time and your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. >> For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's, AWS startup showcase, season two, episode one. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome to the cube conversation here. I'm Sean ferry with the cube in Palo Alto, California. We've got two great guests here featuring armory who has with them Patrion open-source and talking open source and the enterprise. I'm your host, John ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching guys. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate. I've got two great guests, Ben mapping, and SVP, a strategic partner in the armory and Ian Della horn, S staff SRE at Patrion gentlemen, you know, open source and enterprise is here and we wouldn't talk about thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Yeah. Thank you, John. Really happy to be here. Thank you to the Cuban and your whole crew. I'll start with a quick intro. My name is Ben Mappin, farmers founders, lead strategic partnerships. As John mentioned, you know, it all, it really starts with a premise that traditional businesses, such as hotels, banks, car manufacturers are now acting and behaving much more like software companies than they did in the past. And so if you believe that that's true. What does it mean? It means that these businesses need to get great at delivering their software and specifically to the cloud, like AWS. And that's exactly what armory aims to do for our customers. We're based on opensource Spinnaker, which is a continuous delivery platform. And, and I'm very happy that Ian from Patrion is here to talk about our journey together >>And introduce yourself what you do at Patriot and when Patrion does, and then why you guys together here? What's the, what's the story? >>Absolutely. Hi, John and Ben. Thanks for, thanks for having me. So I am Ian. I am a site reliability engineer at Patrion and Patrion is a membership platform for creators. And what we're our mission is to get creators paid, changing the way the art is valued so that creators can make money by having a membership relationship with, with fans. And we are, we're built on top of AWS and we are using Spinnaker with armory to deploy our applications that, you know, help, help creators get paid. Basically >>Talk about the original story of Ben. How are you guys together? What brought you together? Obviously patron is well-known in the creator circles. Congratulations, by the way, all your success. You've done a great service for the industry and have changed the game you were doing creators before it was fashionable. And also you got some cutting-edge decentralization business models as well. So again, we'll come back to that in a minute, but Ben, talk about how this all comes together. Yeah, >>Yeah. So Ian's got a great kind of origin story on our relationship together. I'll give him a lead in which is, you know, what we've learned over the years from our large customers is that in order to get great at deploying software, it really comes down to three things or at least three things. The first being velocity, you have to ship your software with velocity. So if you're deploying your software once a quarter or even once a year, that does no good to your customers or to your business, like just code sitting in a feature branch on a shelf, more or less not creating any business value. So you have to ship with speed. Second, you have to ship with reliability. So invariably there will be bugs. There will be some outages, but you know, one of the things that armory provides with Spinnaker open sources, the ability to create hardened deployment pipeline so that you're testing the right things at the right times with the right folks involved to do reviews. >>And if there is hopefully not, but if there is a problem in production, you're isolating that problem to a small group of users. And then we call this the progressive deployment or Canary deployment where you're deploying to a small number of users. You measure the results, make sure it's good, expand it and expand it. And so I think, you know, preventing outages is incredibly incredibly important. And then the last thing is being able to deploy multi target multi-cloud. And so in the AWS ecosystem, we're talking about ECS, EKS Lambda. And so I think that these pieces of value or kind of the, the pain points that, that enterprises face can resonate with a lot of companies out there, including ENN Patriot. And so I'll, I'll, I'll let you tell the story. >>Yeah, go ahead. Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks for the intro, man. So background background of our partnership with armory as back in the backend, February of 2019, we had a payments payments slowed down for payments processing, and we were risking not getting creators paid on time, which is a doc great for creators because they rely on us for income to be able to pay themselves, pay their rent or mortgage, but also pay staff because they have video editors, website admins, people that nature work with them. And there were, they're a very, there's a very many root causes to this, to this incident, all kind of culminate at once. One of the things that we saw was that deploying D point fixes to remediate. This took too long or taking at least 45 minutes to deploy a new version of the application. And so we've had continuous delivery before using a custom custom home built, rolling deploy. >>We needed to get that time down. We also needed to be secure in our knowledge of like that deploy was stable. So we had had to place a break in the middle due to various factors that that can happen during the deploy previously, I had used a Spinnaker at previous employers. I have been set it up myself and introduced it. And I knew about, I knew like, oh, this is something we could, this would be great. But the Patriot team, the patron SRE team at that time was two people. So I don't have the ability to manage Spinnaker on my own. It's a complex open-source product. It can do a lot of things. There's a lot of knobs to tweak a lot of various settings and stuff you need to know about tangentially. One of the co-founders of, of armory had been, had to hit, had hit me up earlier. I was like, Hey, have you heard of armory? We're doing this thing, opens our Spinnaker, we're packaging this and managing it, check us out if you want. I kind of like filed it away. Like, okay, well that might be something we can use later. And then like two weeks later, I was like, oh wait, this company that does Spinnaker, I know of them. We should probably have a conversation with them and engage with them. >>And so you hit him up and said, Hey, too many knobs and buttons to push what's the deal. >>Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was, I was like, Hey, so by the way, I about that thing, how, how soon can you get someone get someone over here? >>So Ben take us through the progression. Cause that really is how things work in the open source. Open source is really one of those things where a lot of community outreach, a lot of people are literally a one degree or two separation from someone who either wrote the project or is involved in the project. Here's a great example. He saw the need for Spinnaker. The business model was there for him to solve. Okay. Fixes rolling deployments, homegrown all the things, pick your pick, your use case, but he wanted to make it easier. This tends to, this is kind of a pattern. What did you guys do? What's the next step? How did this go from here? >>Yeah. You know, Spinnaker being source is critical to armory's success. Many companies, not just pastry on open source software, I think is not really debatable anymore in terms of being applicable to enterprise companies. But the thing with selling open source software to large companies is that they need a backstop. They need not just enterprise support, but they need features and functionality that enable them to use that software at scale and safely. And so those are really the things that, that we focus on and we use open source as a really, it's a great community to collaborate and to contribute fixes that other companies can use. Other companies contribute fixes and functionality that we then use. But it's, it's really a great place to get feedback and to find new customers that perhaps need that enhanced level of functionality and support. And, and I'm very, very happy that Patrion was one of those companies. >>Okay. So let's talk about the Patrion. Okay. Obviously scaling is a big part of it. You're an SRE site, reliability engineers with folks who don't know what that is, is your, your job is essentially, you know, managing scale. Some say you the dev ops manager, but that's not really right answer. What is the SRE role at patriotics share with folks out there who are either having an SRE. They don't even know it yet or need to have SRS because this is a huge transition that, and new, new and emerging must have role in companies, >>Right? Yeah. We're the history of Patrion covers a lot. We cover a wide swath of a wide swath of, of, of things that we work with and, and areas that we consider to be our, our purview. Not only are we working on working with our AWS environment, but we also are involved in how can we make the site more reliable or performance so that, so that creators fans have a good experience. So we work with our content delivery numbers or caching strategies for caching caching assets. We work inside the application itself for doing performance performance, a hassle. This is also in proving observability with distributed tracing and metrics on a lot of that stuff, but also on the build and deploy side, if we can, if we can get that deploy time faster, like give engineers faster feedback on features that they're working on or bug fixes and also being secure and knowing that the, the code that they're working on it gets delivered reliably. >>Yeah. I think I, you have the continuous delivery is always the, the, the killer killer workflow as both the Spinnaker question here. Well, how has Spinnaker, well, what, how, how does Spinnaker being an open source project help you guys? I mean, obviously open source code is great. How has that been significant and beneficial for both armory and Patrion? >>Yeah, I'll take the first stab at this one. And it starts at the beginning. Spinnaker was created by Netflix and since Netflix open source that four or five years ago, there have been countless and significant contributions from many other companies, including armory, including AWS and those contributions collectively push the industry forward and allow the, the companies that, you know, that use open-source Spinnaker or armory, they can now benefit from all of the collective effort together. So just that community aspect working together is huge. Absolutely huge. And, you know, open source, I guess on the go-to-market side is a big driver for us. You know, there's many, many companies using open-source Spinnaker in production that are not our customers yet. And we, we survey them. We want to know how they're using open-source Spinnaker so that we can then improve open-source Spinnaker, but also build features that are critical for large companies to run at scale, deploy at scale, deploy with velocity and with reliability. >>Yeah. What's your take on, on the benefits of Spinnaker being open source? >>A lot of what Ben, it's been really beneficial to be able to like, be able to go in and look at the source code for components. I've been wondering something like, why is this thing working like this? Or how did they solve this? It's also been useful for, I can go ask the community for, for advice on things. If armory doesn't has the, it doesn't have the time or bandwidth to work on some things I've been able to ask the special interest groups in the source community. Like, can we, can we help improve this or something like that. And I've also been able to commit simple bug fixes for features that I've, that I've needed. I was like, well, I don't need to, I don't need to go engage are very on this. I can just like, I can just write up a simple patch on and have that out for review. >>You know, that's the beautiful thing about open sources. You get the source code and that's, and some people just think it's so easy, Ben, you know, just, Hey, just give me the open source. I'll code it. I got an unlimited resource team. Not, not always the case. So I gotta ask you guys on Patrion. Why use a company like armory, if you have the open source code and armory, why did you build a business on the open source project? Like Spinnaker? >>Yeah. Like I see. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I, like I said earlier, the atrium, the Patrion SRE team was wasn't is fairly small. There's two people. Now we're six. People are still people down. We're six people now. So being sure we could run a Spinnaker on our own if we, if we wanted to. And, but then we'd have no time to do anything else basically. And that's not the best use of our, of our creators money. Our fans, the fans being the creators artists. We have obviously take a percentage on top of that. And we, we need to spend our, that money well, and having armory who's dedicated to the Spinnaker is dedicated, involved the open source project. But also there are experts on this Sunday. It was something that would take me like a week of stumbling around trying to find documentation on how to set this thing up. They done this like 15, 20 times and they can just go, oh yeah, this is what we do for this. And let me go fix it for you >>At score. You know, you've got a teammate. I think that's where, what you're getting at. I got to ask you what other things is that free you up? Because this is the classic business model of life. You know, you have a partner you're moving fast, it slows you down to get into it. Sure. You can do it yourself, but why it's faster to go with it, go together with a partner and a wing man as we will. What things did does that free you up to work on as an SRE? >>Oh, that's freed me up to work on a bigger parts of our build and deploy pipeline. It's freed me up to work on moving from a usage based deploys onto a containerization strategy. It's freed me up to work on more broader observability issues instead of just being laser-focused on running an operating spending. >>Yeah. And that really kind of highlights. I'm glad you said that because it highlights what's going on. You had a lot of speed and velocity. You've got scale, you've got security and you've got new challenges you got to fix in and move fast. It's a whole new world. So again, this is why I love cloud native. Right? So you got open source, you got scale and you guys are applying directly to the, to the infrastructure of the business. So Ben, I got to ask you armory. Co-founder why did you guys build your business on an open source project? Like Spinnaker? What was the mindset? How did you attack this? What did you guys do? Take us through that piece because this is truly a great entrepreneurial story about open source. >>Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you the abridged version, which is that my co-founders and I, we solved the same problem, which is CD at a previous company, but we did it kind of the old fashioned way we home role. We handled it ourselves. We built it on top of Jenkins and it was great for that company, but, and that was kind of the inspiration for us to then ask questions. Hey, is this bigger? We, when at the time we found that Spinnaker had just been, you know, dog food inside of Netflix and they were open sourcing it. And we thought it was a great opportunity for us to partner. But the bigger reason is that Spinnaker is a platform that deploys to other platforms like AWS and Kubernetes and the sheer amount of surface area that's required to build a great product is enormous. And I actually believe that the only way to be successful in this space is to be open source, to have a community of large companies and passionate developers that contribute the roads if you will, to deploy into various targets. >>And so that's the reason, number one for it being open source and us wanting to build our business on top of open source. And then the second reason is because we focus almost exclusively on solving enterprise scale problems. We have a platform that needs to be extensible and open source is by definition extensible. So our customers, I mean, Ian just had a great example, right? Like he needed to fix something he was able to do so solve it in open source. And then, you know, shortly thereafter that that fix in mainline gets into the armory official build and then he can consume his fix. So we see a lot of that from our other customers. And then even, you know, take a very, very large company. They may have custom off that they need to integrate with, but that doesn't, that's not in open-source Spinnaker, but they can go and build that themselves. >>Yeah, it's real. It really is the new modern way to develop. And I, you know, last 80 with startup showcase last season, Emily Freeman gave a talk on, you know, you know, retiring, I call it killing the software, SDLC, the lifecycle of how software was developed in the past. And I got to ask you guys, and, and this cube conversation is that this is kind of like the, the kind of the big wave we're on now is cloud scale, open source, cloud, native data security, all being built in on this in the pipelines to your point is SRS enabling a new infrastructure and a new environment for people to build essentially SAS. So I got to ask you guys as, and you mentioned it Ben, the old way you hand rolled something, Netflix, open source, something, you got to look at Lyft with Envoy. I mean, large-scale comes, are donating their stuff into open source and people getting on top of it and building it. So the world's changed. So we've got to ask you, what's the difference between standing up a SAS application today versus say five to eight years ago, because we all see salesforce.com. You know, they're out there, they built their own data center. Cloud skills changed the dynamics of how software is being built. And with open-source accelerating every quarter, you're seeing more growth in software. How has building a platform for applications changed and how has that changed? How people build SAS applications, Ben, what's your take on this? It's kind of a thought exercise here. >>Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't even call it a thought exercise. We're seeing it firsthand from our customers. And then I'll, you know, I'll, I'll give my answer and you can weigh in on like practical, like what you're actually doing at Patrion with SAS, but the, the costs and the kind of entry fee, if you will, for building a SAS application has tremendously dropped. You don't need to buy servers and put them inside data centers anymore. You just spin up a VM or Kubernetes cluster with AWS. AWS has led the way in public cloud to make this incredible easy. And the tool sets being built around cloud native, like armory and like many other companies in the space are making it even easier. So we're just seeing the proliferation of, of software being developed and, and hopefully, you know, armory is playing a role in, in making it easier and better. >>So before we get to Unum for a second, I just want to just double down on it because there's great conversation that implies that there's going to be a new migration of apps everywhere, right. As tsunami of clutter good or bad, is that good or bad or is it all open source? Is it all good then? >>Absolutely good. For sure. There will be, you know, good stuff developed and not so good stuff developed, but survival of the fittest will hopefully promote those, the best apps with the highest value to the end user and, and society at large and push us all forward. So, >>And what's your take, obviously, Kubernetes, you seeing things like observability talking about how we're managing stateful and services that are being deployed and tear down in real time, automated, all new things are developing. How does building a true scalable SAS application change today versus say five, eight years ago? >>I mean, like you said, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot of new, both open source. So SAS products available that you can use to build a scale stuff. Like if you're going to need that to build like secure authentication, instead of having to roll that out and you could go with something like Okta raw zero, you can just pull that off the shelf stuff for like managing push notifications before that was like something really hard to really hard to do. Then Firebase came on the scene and also for manic state and application and stuff like that. And also for like being, being able to deliver before >>You had Jenkins, maybe even for that, you didn't really have anything Jenkins came along. And then now you have open-source products like Spinnaker that you can use to deliver. And then you have companies built around that, that you can just go and say, Hey, can you please help us deliver this? Like you just help us, enable us to be able to build, build our products so that we can focus on delivering value to our creators and fans instead of having to focus on, on other things. >>So bill it builds faster. You can compose stuff faster. You don't have to roll your own code. You can just roll your own modules basically, and then exactly what prietary on top of it. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why commercial open source is booming. Guys. Thank you so much, Ben, congratulations on armory and great to have you on from Patrion well-known success. So we'll accompany you congratulate. If we don't know patriarch, check it out, they have changed the game on creators and leading the industry. Ben. Great, great shot with armory and Spinnaker. Thanks for coming on. Thank you >>So much. Thank you >>So much. Okay. I'm Sean Ferrer here with the cube conversation with Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.