>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 I'm John Farrow, your hosts. We've got the cube virtual. We're not there in person with remote this year, and we're excited to cover three weeks of wall-to-wall coverage. It's virtual events, so they don't over three weeks. We're in week three, day two. Um, and if you're watching this live on the platform tomorrow, Thursday at two o'clock Andy Jassy, we'll be live here on the cube with one-on-one with me to address all the hard questions, but here we're doing a day two of week three analysis with Jeremy Burton industry legend entrepreneur. Now the CEO of observe Inc, um, formerly the CMO of Dell technologies before that EMC has done a variety of ventures, seeing many ways of innovation, friend of the cube. Jeremy, thank you for coming on. >>Yeah, my pleasure. Great. Always great to be on the cube. >>Uh, great to have you on in particularly because, um, yesterday Verner, Vogel's talked a lot about observability and I noticed you got your observed shirt on, uh, observe Inc is your company's name, which is one of the many, uh, hot startups around observability, where you're making a business out of basically what he talked about yesterday. Um, and today's keynote. You had the extended cloud, uh, edge applications. You had bill Vass who leads up both edge and quantum. And then you had Rudy Valdez who, who talked a lot about, uh, evolution of cloud architecture. And of course you finally had, um, David Richardson, who is the VP of serverless. So you got edge. Quantum serverless architecture speaks to the sea change, Jeremy, and you have a good read on these big waves. When you look at serverless and then quantum, you look at, uh, edge, which is data, and you look at, um, all this coming together and on their architecture, Verner's keynote yesterday kind of makes sense. It's a systems architecture and this new observability trend, isn't like a point product. It's a broader concepts. You have a complete rethinking of distributed computing in the cloud. This is kinda what this Amazon feels like. What's your, what's your take? >>Yeah, it's a, it's a good observation. You know, the, the, the, the sort of punchline is, is that people are building applications differently. Um, so the, the, the, the, the technologies that people are using to build apps are different, um, the way in which they build applications is different. Um, the way folks released codes into production is different, and it stands to reason. Therefore, you're going to need a different approach, uh, when you want to troubleshoot these applications. So, uh, when you find, uh, you know, w w what is show when you want to find out what issues customers are having? So what, what we fell a couple of three years ago when we started to observe was that, um, uh, a new approach was required, what you're going to need to monitor your application. And, you know, 2020 is not the same as what you needed in 2015 or 2010. >>And we felt very strongly that this new wave was, was going to be called observability. It, it brings a tear to my eye to hear a Verner, talk about it, because as much as we observe, you know, believe that we can do big things in future. It's the big vendors today that can move markets. And so the Amazon and vulnerable particular talk about observability, I think it lends more credence to the topic. Um, we think that organizations should have observability teams. We think there should be a head of observability. And again, you know, Amazon and Dawson this, uh, I think means that there's a much stronger chance that that's going to happen. And they're going to start, start to shine a light on, I think, a topic that almost everybody needs to pay attention to as they build their next generation of applications. >>When you guys, I know you guys are launched and you have couple of campaign customers now and growing rapidly, um, well-funded, um, uh, get some great investors have found that the investors of snowflake also, um, invested in you guys. So they see this cloud trend LC snowflake when public, and I know you're on the board of snowflake as well. So, uh, you, you, you know, a little bit about what's going on with Amazon and the opportunity when you look at observability, okay, you're building a business around it. And again, you think about head of observability. That's not like a small thing when you make, put someone in charge of something. So why do you say that? I mean, what, I mean, you know, some would say, you know, Hey, it's a feature, not a company. I mean, this is two mindsets that are different. How do you address that? >>Yeah, the, the, the, the thing I'd say is, look, the number one job in America is, um, is a software engineer is writing code. The number two job is fixing it. And so, you know, th th the job think about that for a second. The job of fixing our applications is almost as big as the job of creating our applications. Uh, something has to change, right? I know the job of fixing cars is not as big as the auto industry. Why, because over time that industry has matured and there are better tools to diagnose cars. Uh, and so they're, they, they become easy to fix over time. We've, we've not made that leap with our applications. Um, the tools that the engineering team use to debug and troubleshoot their application are often still very different to what the dev ops team is using, um, which is very different to what maybe the SRE team is using. >>And so it's a huge problem in our industry. Um, really not being able to diagnose troubleshoot issues when they arise. It, it costs the industry, a fortune, it costs, you know, sort of in indirect wasted productivity of development teams, but it also costs in terms of customer experience. Um, I mean, you know, you and I both know is, look, if we're, if we're having a bad experience with maybe a new service that we're trying out online, w w we're probably going to go somewhere else. And so the there's never been like a more important time for people to invest in observing the entire environment, the entire customer experience, not only will you have happier customers, you might actually reduce the costs and improve the productivity in your engineering team as well. So I feel like the opportunity there is, is, is, is, is vast. Um, I also think longer term, um, it doesn't just apply to troubleshooting distributed applications. >>Um, I think the security systems are very related to the way we build software. Um, I mean, I think in, in, in the news in recent days, we've, we've come attuned, uh, uh, to, to software defects, um, or malware in software causing breaches and government agencies. Um, Hey, that, that could be anybody's software right there. Yeah. And so security has got a role to play in observability and the customer experience. It doesn't stop when they have a bad experience on the website. What if they complain? You know, what if a help desk ticket get, how do you track that? >>Yeah, I'm going to, I have a lot of questions for chassis tomorrow. One of them I'm going to ask him, and I want to get your thoughts on it. Cause you brought that up. And I think it's a key point, you know, building applications and supporting them and fixing them. It kind of reminds me of the old adage of, um, you know, you know, you gotta run it running the operation, 70% of the budget using to running it. If you look at what's happening and if you talk to customers and this is what I'm going to ask chassis tomorrow, Verner actually talked about, I on day two operations in his keynote. Yeah. I mean, this is Amazon they're, they're targeting builders. And so I talked to, um, a few other entrepreneurs, um, who were growing companies and some CIA CIOs and CEOs and the basic enterprises. >>They don't want to be building things like they, that's not their DNA. They don't build things like, that's not what they do. I mean, first of all, I love the builder mentality and with Amazon. Um, but they might be at a time where there might not be enough builders, Jeremy right out there. So you've got skill shortages and then ultimately are enterprises really builders. Yeah. They'll build something, but then they just run it it's. So, so at what point do they stop building or they build their own thing in the cloud and then they got to run it. So I think Amazon is going to shift quickly to day two operations, get bill, bill, bill run, run, run. >>Yeah. That's a great topic of conversation. I think what you sort of poking out is, is sort of the maturation of this digital age in the state that we're at. Um, I mean, if you, if you go back, you, you know, to, you know, 10, 10, 20 years, um, I mean, look at the mid nineties, um, there were a lot of people building custom applications, right? I mean, you know, it was innovation, it was all about building custom apps. And I think that golden era of application development whack that now, um, and, and customers in order to get competitive advantage, they are building their own applications. When you talk about digital transformation, what does that mean? Well, it means, you know, often a traditional company building a new digital experience for services that they've potentially offered in a physical way, uh, in the past. So make no mistake, P people are builders or they are writing code, they are becoming digital. >>I think what you'll find at some point as the industry's mature, some of these digital experience is become packaged. And so you can buy those off the shelf. And so there's less building required. But I think as we sit today, um, that there's probably more code been written in anger by more organizations that at any point in the last 30 years. And, and I think this is another reason why observability is so important, um, as you're building that code and as you're developing that customer experience, you want to be able to understand, um, where the issues are and, and, um, uh, like along the way, you don't want to wait until there's a, a big customer disaster on the day of you roll that, something to production before you start investigate. And you want to do that as you go. >>Yeah. And I think that's a kill. I do agree with you, by the way. I think the, there is a builder mentality, but it's probably right. But remember those days back in it, if you want to put our, our time machine hat on and go through the time machine is, you know, that was during the mainframe client server transition. And it was called spaghetti code. You know, it's like the monoliths were built and then it had to be supported and that became legacy. So I kind of see that happening today, where, um, people are moving to the cloud, they are building, but at some point you got to build your thing in the cloud. If I'm a company. And again, this isn't some dots trying to connect in real time. I got serverless, which is totally cool. I'm gonna have quantum has headroom for compute. >>I'm going to have, um, kind of a S a SOA service oriented architecture with web services, with observability. I'm gonna have all these modern apps great that, or run them. And I'm now I'm gonna shift them. Multiple clouds is so, you know, maybe the private cloud waves coming back, you're seeing telco clouds. You start to see these new tier. I won't say tier two clouds, but I mean, people will build their own cloud environment. There's no doubt as going to the cloud. And Steve Malania, Aviatrix kind of made this point yesterday in his analysis where he's like, he thinks private cloud will be back. I was just, it'll just be public cloud. People will build their own clouds and run them. >>Yeah. I feel well, what happens over time is, is the, the sort of line above which you would add value rises. So I kind of feel like, look, cloud is just going to the infrastructure. We can debate, you know, private cloud, public cloud. Is it a public cloud, or is it a private cloud served up by a public cloud provider? My view is, is look, all of that is, is, um, just going to be commodity, right? Um, it's going to be served up for an ever decreasing cost. And so then it's incumbent on organizations to innovate above that line. And, you know, 20 years ago, you know, we, we built our own data centers. Um, and now increasingly that, that seeming like a crazy idea. Um, and you know, now you can get almost all of your infrastructure from the cloud. The great thing is, I mean, look at observe. >>We have no people running data center operations, none, right? We have no people building a database, non, you know, we use snowflake in the cloud. It runs on AWS. We have, we have one dev ops, uh, engineer. And so all the people in the company right now, we're focused on adding value, helping people understand and analyze data, uh, above that line. And we just pay for a service level and, and look, uh, as time goes by, there's going to be more and more services and that line's going to rise. And so, you know, what, what I care about and what I think a lot of CEOs care about is are most of my resources innovating above that sort of value creation line, um, because that's what people are going to pay for in our business. And I think that's, what's going to represent you, you know, sort of value add for you, you know, organizations big and small. >>Yeah. That's a good point. I want to shift to the next topic and then we'll get into some observability questions I have for you and update on your company. Um, complexity has been a big theme. That's come out of all the conversations with analysts that have come on the cube, as you hear it with Amazon, a lot of undifferentiated, heavy lifting, being extracted away to your point about value layers and competing on value. Amazon continues to do that all great stuff, but some are saying, and we had said on the cube, yes, two days ago you put them complexity behind the curtain. It's still complexity, right? So, so complexity with the edge is highlighted. Uh, even though they got green, uh, I, um, edge core Greengrass, which has core thing, IOT core, a lot of cool things happening, but it's still not yet super easy. So complexity tends to slow things down became striction, what's your view on this? Because taming, the complexity seems to be a post COVID pandemic mandate for cloud journeys. What's your thing. >>Yeah, I totally agree. I think, I think in certainly you look organizations that have been in existence, but you know, 30, 40 years, or maybe even 10 years look at there's an amount of technical debt and complexity that you build up over time. Um, but even newer companies, um, the way that people are building modern distributed applications and in some respects is, is more complex than in days gone by, you know, microservices. Um, some of which maybe you own some of which maybe you don't, and what you've gotta be able to do is, is see the big picture, you know, w w when, when there's something in my code, but then when am I making a call out to maybe a third party microservice and, and that microservices bailing out on me, like people have got to see the big picture. And I think what hasn't been available as people have changed the architecture and their applications, there hasn't been an equivalent set of innovation or evolution in the tools that they use to manage that environment. And so you, you, you, you've got this sort of dichotomy of, uh, a better way for software developers to write code and deploy it into production microservices. But at the same time, you don't have good information and good tools to make sense of that complexity. >>That's great stuff. Jeremy Burton is here. He's the CEO of observe Inc cube, alumni, VIP cube alumni, by the way, has been on the cube every year, since the Q has been around 2010, when he took the new job as the CMO of EMC prior to being bought by Dell, Jeremy, you're a legend in the industry, certainly on as an executive and a marketer. And as an entrepreneur, um, I gotta ask you observe Inc, your company now, um, you're right in the middle of all this, you, you got a big bet going on. Could you share, in your opinion, your words, what is the big bet that you're making with observing? Uh, what are you betting on? How do you see the preferred future unfolding and where are you guys going to capture that value? >>Yes, I I'll big bat. Hey, uh, really is to take a new approach, um, in, in, in, in terms of enabling people to observe their systems, that the term observability actually goes back, uh, to a guy in control systems theory in the sixties. And then it's got quite a simple definition, which is, you know, being able to determine the, uh, I've been able to diagnose a system by the telemetry data that it emits. So let's look at the external outputs. And then based on that, can I determine the internal state of the application? And so from the get-go, we felt like observability was not about building another tool, right? We're not, you know, it's not about building another monitoring tool, a logging tool. Um, it's about analyzing data. And I, I was struck many years ago. Uh, I spent a bit of time with, with Andy McAfee, uh, from the sea sail lab at MIT. >>And he made a statement that I thought at the time was quite profound, which he said, look, everything's a matter of data. If you have enough data, you can solve any problem. And that stuck with me for a long time. And, um, you know, observe really what we do is we ingest vast quantities of telemetry data. We treat everything as events and we try and make sense of it. And the economics of the infrastructure now is such, that is you truly can ingest all the Alltel telemetry data and it's affordable, right? I mean, one of the wonderful things that Amazon has done is they've brought you, you know, very cheap, affordable storage. You can ingest all your data and keep it forever. Um, but, but now can you make sense of it? Well, you know, compute is pretty cheap these days and you've got amazing processing engines like snowflake. >>And so I was sense was that if we could allow folks to ingest all of this telemetry data process, that data and help people easily analyze that data, then they could find almost any problem that existed, uh, in their applications or in their infrastructure. So we really set out to create a data company, which I think is fundamentally different to, to really what everybody else is doing. And today we're troubleshooting distributed applications, but I think in future, we, my hope is that we can, we can help people analyze almost anything around their applications or infrastructure. >>And what's the use case problem statement that you're entering the market on? Is it just making sure microservices can be deployed as a Kubernetes? Is it managing containers? Is there a specific, um, customer adoption use case that you're focused on right now? >>Yeah, we've tried to target our ideal customer if you like has been the three or 4,000, uh, uh, SAS companies. Uh, we're, we're really focused on the U S right now, but three to 5,000 SAS companies, um, predominantly, uh, obviously running on AWS often, uh, Kubernetes infrastructure, but, you know, people who, uh, having a hard time, uh, understanding the complexity of the application that they've created, and they're having a hard time understanding, uh, the experience that their customers are having and tracking that back to root cause. So, you know, really helping those SAS companies troubleshoot their applications and having a better customer experience that's where the early customers are. And if we can do a good job in that area, I think we can, you know, over time, you know, start to take on some of the bigger companies and maybe some of the more established companies that are moving in this, this digital direction. >>Jeremy, thanks for sharing that. And I got one last set of questions for you around the industry, but before I get there, give a quick plug for observe. What are you guys looking to do hire, I mean, give a quick, uh, a PSA on what's going on with observed. >>Yeah, so we're, uh, the company is now what a rough and tough. About three years old, we got about 40 people. Uh we're well-funded by sort of Hill ventures. Uh, they were the original investors in, in snowflake. Um, and, um, yeah, I mean, we we've, we've well, more than doubled in size since the COVID lockdown began. We had about 15 people when that began. We've got almost 40 now. Um, and I would anticipate in the next year we're, we're probably going to double in size again, but, um, yeah, really the core focus in the company is, is understanding and analyzing vast quantities of data. And so anybody who is interested in, uh, that space look us up >>Mainly any areas, obviously engineering and the other areas okay. >>Near in all over. I mean, we, you know, w w w as you'll see, if you go to observing.com, we've got a pretty slick front end. Uh, we invested very early on in design and UX design. So we believe that you are, can be a differentiator. So we've got some amazing engineers on the front end. Uh, so going to can always do with the help there, but obviously, um, you know, there's a data processing platform here as well. Um, we, uh, we do run on top of snowflake. We, we do have a number of folks here who are very familiar, uh, you know, with the snowflake database and, and how to write efficiency equals. So, so front and backend. Um, we very soon, I think we'll be starting to expand the sales team. Um, we're really starting to get our initial set of customers and the feedback loop rule in rolling into engineering. And my hope would be, you know, probably early part of next year, we re we really start to nail the product market fit. Um, and we've got a huge release coming in the early part of next year where that the metrics and alerting functionality will be in the product. So, yeah, it's, it's sort of all systems go right now. >>Congratulations. Love to see the entrepreneurial journey. We'll keep an eye out for you and you're in a hot space. So we'll be riding, you'll be riding that wave, uh, question for you on the, um, just kind of the industry, uh, you're in the heart of Silicon Valley. Like I am honestly, I'm fellow Alto, you're up in the Hillsborough area. Um, I think you're in Hillsborough, right? That's where you, where you live. Um, San Francisco, the Valley, the pandemic pretty hard hit right now. People are sheltering in place, but still a lot of activity. Um, what are you hearing in, um, in, in the VC circles, startup circles, as everyone looks at coming out of the pandemic and you look at Amazon and you look at what snowflake has done. I mean, snowflake was built on top of Amazon competing against Redshift. Um, okay. They were hugely successful at doing that. So there's kind of this new playbook emerging. What are, what are people talking about? What's the scuttlebutt. >>Yeah. I mean, clearly TAC has done very well throughout what has been, you know, like just a terrible environment. Um, I think both kind of socially and economically, and I think what's going on in the stock market right now is probably not reflective of the, of the economic situation. And I think a lot of the indices are dominated by tech companies. So you, if you're not careful, you can get a little bit of a false read. Um, but look, what is undisputed is, is that the world is going to become more digital, more tech centric than, than less. Um, so I think there is a very, very bright future, you know, for tech, um, that there is certainly plenty of VC money, um, available. Um, you know, that is not really changed materially in the last year. Um, so if you have a good idea, if you're on one of these major trends, I think that there is a very good chance that you can get the company funded. >>Um, and you know, our, our expectation is that, you know, next year, obviously industries are going to return to work that have been dominant maybe for the last six, nine months. And so some parts of the economy should pick up again, but I would also tell you, I think certain, uh, sort of habits are not going to die. I mean, I think more things are going to be done online and we've gotten used to that way of working and, and you know, what, not, some of it is measurable. I don't know about cocktails over zoom, but working with customers, um, in some respects is easier because they're not traveling, we're not traveling. So we both have more time. Uh, it's sometimes easy to get meetings with people that you would never get. Now. Now, can you do an efficient sales process, education proof of concept? You know, those processes maybe have to grow up a little bit to be taken online, but I think the certain parts of the last, maybe six to nine months that we don't want to throw away and go back to the way we were doing it, because I think, you know, maybe this way of doing it is, is more efficient. >>What do you think about the, uh, entrepreneurial journeys out there? Obviously, um, Amazon we're here covering re-invent is really kind of, you know, building a massive compute engine. They've got higher level services and, you know, I've been speculating for years. I think snowflake is the first kind of big sign. That points to kind of what I said five years ago, which is there's going to be an opportunity for these other clouds as specialty clouds. I called them might be the wrong word, but snowflake basically built on top of Amazon, you know, most valuable company ever on wall street, uh, IPO on someone else's cloud. So is that a playbook? I mean, is that a move? I mean, this is kind of like a new thing. >>Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I, I feel like on databases, I've got a lot of history on management, Oracle almost 10 years. And you know, what snowflake does they did was they, they rearchitected the database explicitly for the cloud. I mean, you can run Oracle on the cloud, but, but it, but it doesn't do things the way that snowflake does it. Right. I mean, snowflake uses commodity storage. It uses S3 it's elastic. And so when you're not using it, you're not paying it. And these things sound very simple and very obvious now, which is I think what, what, what the genius of the founders, you know, Ben Warren and Tre, uh, work, and, and I think there will be other costs, you know, categories of infrastructure that will get rearchitected and reinvented for the cloud. And, you know, I've got equally big opportunities. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I think the model, I believe firmly that the model is if you're a startup, you don't need to waste a lot of time, like reinventing the wheel on data center, infrastructure and databases, and a lot of the services that you would use to construct an application. >>You, you, you can start, you know, if, if the building that you're trying to build is like 12 floors, you can start at the eighth or ninth floor. Um, you know, I've, I've got like what three or 400 quality engineers at snowflake that are building our database. I don't, I don't need to do that. I can just piggyback on top of what they've done and add value. And, you know, the, the, the beautiful thing, you know, now, if you're a business out there thinking of, of, of, of becoming digital and reinventing yourself, or you're a startup just getting going, there's a lot of stuff you just don't have to build anymore. You just don't even have to think about it. >>Yeah. This is the new program of bull internet. It's internet, truly 2.0 or 3.0, whatever 4.0, a complete reset of online. And I think the pandemic, as you pointed out on many cube interviews and Andy Jassy send his keynote is on full display right now. And I think the smart money and smart entrepreneurs are going to see the opportunities. Okay. >>Yeah. It comes back to ideas and a great, I mean, I've always been a product person. Um, but look at great idea, a great product idea and a great product idea that, that capitalizes on the big trends in the industry. I think there's always going to be funding for those kinds of things. I don't know a lot about the consumer world I've always worked in, in B2B, but, um, you know, the kind of things that you're going to be able to do in future. I mean, think about it. If storage is essentially free and compute is essentially free. Just imagine what you could do, right. Jeremy, >>This is the new consumer. Get out. Let's understand that. Finally, B2B is the new consumer enterprise is hot. I was, again, it was riffing on this all week. All the things going on in enterprise is complex is now the new consumers now all connected. It's all one thing. The consumerization of it, the condition of computing has happened. It's going on. So you're a leader. Thank you for coming on. Great to see you as always, um, say hi to your family and stay safe. >>Yeah, you too. Thanks for the invite. Always, always a pleasure. >>Jeremy Burton breaking down the analysis of day two of week three of re-invent coverage. I'm John furry with the cube virtual. We're not in person anymore. Virtualization has allowed us to do more interviews over 110 interviews so far for re-invent and tomorrow, Thursday at two o'clock, Andy Jassy will spend 30 minutes with me here on the cube, looking back at re-invent the highs, the lows, and what's next for Amazon web services. I'm chef Aria. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon LIVE 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon LIVE 2020. Happy to welcome back to the program one of our CUBE alumni, Deepak Singh. He's the vice president of compute services at Amazon Web Services. Deepak, great to see you. >> Likewise, hi, Stu. Nice to meet you again. >> All right, so for our audience that hasn't been in your previous times on theCUBE, give us a little bit about, you know, your role and your organization inside AWS? >> Yeah, so I'm, I've been part of the AWS compute services world from, for the last 12 years in various capacities. Today, I run a number of teams, all our container services, our Linux teams, I also happen to run a high performance computing organization, so it's a nice mix of all the computing that our customers do, especially some of the more new and large scale compute types that our customers are doing. >> All right, so Deepak, obviously, you know, the digital events, we understand what's happening with the global pandemic. DockerCon was actually always planned to be an online event but I want to understand, you know, your teams, how things are affecting, we know distributed is something that Amazon's done, but you have to cut up those two pizza and send them out to the additional groups or, you know, what advice are you giving the developers out there? >> Yeah, in many ways, obviously, how we operate has changed. We are at home, maybe I think with our families. DockerCon was always going to be virtual, but many other events like AWS Summits are now virtual so, you know, in some ways, the teams, the people that get most impacted are not necessarily the developers in our team but people who interact a lot with customers, who go to conferences and speak and they are finding new ways of being effective and being successful and they've been very creative at it. Our customers are getting very good at working with us virtually because we can always go to their site, they can always come to Seattle, or run of other sites for meeting. So we've all become very good at, and disciplined at how do you conduct really nice virtual meetings. But from a customer commitment side, from how we are operating, the things that we're doing, not that much has changed. We still run our projects the same way, the teams work together. My team tends to do a lot of happy things like Friday happy hours, they happen to be all virtual. I think last time we played, what word, bingo? I forget exactly what game we played. I know I got some point somewhere. But we do our best to maintain sort of our team chemistry or camaraderie but the mission doesn't change which is our customers expect us to keep operating their services, make sure that they're highly available, keep delivering new capabilities and I think in this environment, in some ways that's even more important than ever, as customer, as the consumer moves online and so much business is being done virtually so it keeps us on our toes but it's been an adjustment but I think we are all, not just us, I think the whole world is doing the best that they can under the circumstances. >> Yeah, absolutely, it definitely has humanized things quite a bit. From a technology standpoint, Deepak, you know, distributed systems has really been the challenge of you know, quite a long journey that people have been going on. Docker has played, you know, a really important role in a lot of these cloud native technologies. It's been just amazing to watch, you know, one of the things I point to in my career is, you know, watching from those very, very early days of Docker to the Cambrian explosion of what we've seen container based services, you know, you've been part of it for quite a number of years and AWS had many services out there. For people that are getting started, you know, what guidance do you give them? What do they understand about, you know, containerization in 2020? >> Yeah, containerization in 2020 is quite a bit different from when Docker started in 2013. I remember speaking at DockerCon, I forget, that's 2014, 2015, and it was a very different world. People are just trying to figure out what containers are that they could package code in deeper. Today, containers are mainstream, it is more customers or at least many customers and they are starting to build new applications, probably starting them either with containers or with some form of server technology. At least that's the default starting point but increasingly, we also seen customers with existing applications starting to think about how do they adapt? And containers are a means to an end. The end is how can we move faster? How can we deliver more quickly? How can our teams be more productive? And how can you do it more, less expensively, at lower cost? And containers are a big part, important and critical piece of that puzzle, both from how customers are operating their infrastructure, that there's a whole ecosystem of schedulers and orchestration and security tools and all the things that an enterprise need to deliver applications using containers that they have built up. Over the last few years, you know, we have multiple container services that meet those needs. And I think that's been the biggest change is that there's so much more. Which also means that when you're getting started, you're faced with many more options. When Docker started, it was this cute whale, Docker run, Docker build Docker push, it was pretty simple, you could get going really quickly. And today you have 500 different options. My guidance to customers really is, boils down to what are you trying to achieve? If you're an organization that's trying to corral infrastructure and trying to use an existing VM more effectively, for example, you probably do want to invest in becoming experts at schedulers and understanding orchestration technologies like ECS and EKS work but if you just want to run applications, you probably want to look at something like Fargate or more. I mean, you could go towards Lambda and just run code. But I think it all boils down to where you're starting your journey. And by the way, understanding Docker run, Docker build and Docker push is still a great idea. It helps you understand how things work. >> All right, so Deepak, you've already brought up a couple of AWS services of, you know, talk about the options out there, that you can either run on top of AWS, you have a lot of native services, you know, ECS, EKS, you mentioned, Fargate there, and very broad ecosystem in space. Could you just, you know, obviously, there are entire breakout sessions to talk about , the various AWS services, but you know, give us that one on one level as to what to understand for container service by AWS. >> Yeah, and these services evolved organically and we launched the Amazon Elastic Container Service or ECS in preview in November or whenever re:Invent was that year in 2014, which seems ages ago in the world of containers but in the end, our goal is to give our customers the most choice, so that they can solve problems the way they want to solve them. So Amazon ECS is our native container orchestration service, it's designed to work with and the rest of the AWS ecosystem. So it uses VPC for networking, it uses IAM identity, it uses ALB for load balancing, other than just good examples, some examples of how it works. But it became pretty clear over time that there was a lot of customers who were investing in communities, very often starting in their own data centers. And as they migrated onto the cloud, they wanted to continue using the same tool plane but they also wanted to not have to manage the complexity of communities control planes, upgrades. And they also wanted some of the same integrations that they were getting with ECS and so that's where the Amazon Elastic Kubernetes Service or EKS comes in, which is, okay, we will manage a control plane for you. We will manage upgrades and patches for you. You focus on building your applications in Kubernetes way, so it embraces Kubernetes. It has, invokes with all the Kubernetes tooling and gives you a Kubernetes native experience, but then also ties into the broad AWS ecosystem and allows us to take care of some of the muck that many customers quite frankly don't and shouldn't have to worry about. But then we took it one step further and actually launched the same time as EKS and that's, AWS Fargate, and Fargate was, came from the recognition that we had, actually, a long time ago, which is, one of the beauties of EC2 was that customers never had, had to stop, didn't have to worry about racking and stacking and where a server was running anymore. And the idea was, how can we apply that to the world of containers. And we also learned a little bit from what we had done with Lambda. And we took that and took the server layer and took it out of the way. Then from a customer standpoint, all you're launching is a pod or a task or a service and you're not worrying about which machines I need to get, what types of machines I need to get. And the operational simplicity that comes with it is quite remarkable and quite finding not that, surprisingly, our customers want us to keep pushing the boundary of the kind operational simplicity we can give them but Fargate serves a critical building block and part of that, and we're super excited because, you know, today by far when a new customer, when a customer comes and runs a container on AWS the first time they pick Fargate, we're usually using ECS because EKS and Fargate is much newer, but that is a default starting point for any new container customer on AWS which is great. >> All right, well, you know, Docker, the company really helped a lot with that democratization, container technologies, you know, all those services that you talked about from AWS. I'm curious now, the partnership with Docker here, you know, how do some of the AWS services, you know, fit in with Docker? I'm thinking Docker Desktop probably someplace that they're, you know, or some connection? >> Yeah, I think one of the things that Docker has always been really good at as a company, as a project, is understanding the developer and the fact that they start off on a laptop. That's where the original Docker experience that go well, and Docker Desktop since then and we see a ton of Docker Desktop customers have used AWS. We also learned very early on, because originally ECS CLI supported Docker Compose. That ecosystem is also very rich and people like building Docker files and post files and just being able to launch them. So we continue to learn from what Docker is doing with Docker Desktop. We continue working with them on making sure that customizing the Docker Compose and Docker Desktop can run all their services and application on AWS. And we'll continue working with Docker, the company, on how we make that a lot easier for our customers, they are our mutual customers, and how we can learn from their simplicity that Docker, the simplicity that Docker brings and the sort of ease of use the Docker bring for the developer and the developer experience. We learn from that for our own services and we love working with them to make sure that the customer that's starting with Docker Desktop or the Docker CLI has a great experience as they move towards a fully orchestrated experience in the cloud, for example. There's a couple of other areas where Docker has turned out to have had foresight and driven some of our thinking. So a few years ago, Docker released this thing called containerd, where they took out their container runtime from inside the bigger Docker engine. And containerd has become a very important project for us as well as, it's the underpinning of Fargate now and we see a lot of interest from customers that want to keep building on containerd as well. And it's going to be very interesting to see how we work with Docker going forward and how we can continue to give our customers a lot of value, starting from the laptop and then ending up with large scale services in the cloud. >> Very interesting stuff, you know, interesting. Anytime we have a conversation about Docker, there's Docker the technology and Docker the company and that leads us down the discussion of open-source technologies . You were just talking about, you know, containerd believe that connects us to Firecracker. What you and your team are involved in, what's your viewpoint is the, you know, what you're seeing from open-source, how does Amazon think of that? And what else can you share with the audience on this topic? >> Yeah, as you've probably seen over the last few years, both from our work in Kubernetes, with things like Firecracker and more recently Bottlerocket. AWS gets deeply involved with open-source in a number of ways. We are involved heavily with a number of CNCF projects, whether it be containerd, whether it be things like Kubernetes itself, projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem, the service mesh world with Envoy and with the containerd project. So where containerd fits in really well with AWS is in a project that we call firecracker-containerd. They're effectively for Fargate, firecracker-containerd as we move Fargate towards Firecracker becomes out of the container in which you run containerd. It's effectively the equivalent of runC in a traditional Docker engine world. And, you know, one of the first things we did when Firecracker got rolled out was open-source the firecracker-containerd project. It's a go project and the idea was it's a great way for people to build VM like isolation and then build sort of these serverless container architectures like we want to do with Fargate. And, you know, I think Firecracker itself has been a great success. You see customer, you know, companies like Libvirt integrating with Firecracker. I've seen a few other examples of, sometimes unbeknownst to us, of people picking a Firecracker and using it for very, very interesting use cases and not just on AWS in other places as well. And we learnt a lot from that that's kind of why Bottlerocket is, was released the way it was. It is both a product and a project. Bottlerocket, the operating system is an open-source project. It's on GitHub, it has all the building tooling, you can take it and do whatever you want with it. And then on the AWS side, we will build and publish Bottlerocket armies, Amazon machine images, we will support them on AWS and there it's a product. But then Bottlerocket the project is something that anybody in the world who wants to run a minimal operating system can choose to pick up. And I think we've learnt a lot from these experiences, how we deal with the community, how we work with other people who are interested in contributing. And you know, Docker is one of the, the Docker open-source pieces and Docker the company are both part of the growing open-source ecosystem that's coming from AWS, especially on the container world. So it's going to be very interesting. And I'll end with, containerization has started impacting other parts of AWS, as well as our other services are being built, very often through ECS and EKS, but they're also influencing how we think about what capabilities we need to build into the broader container ecosystem. >> Yeah, Deepak, you know, you mentioned that some of the learnings from Lambda has impacted the services you're doing on the containerization side. You know, we've been watching some of the blurring of the lines between another container world and the containerization world. You know, there's some open-source projects out there, the CNCS working on things, you know, what's the latest, as you see kind of containerization and serverless and you know, where do you see them going forward? >> This is that I say that crystal balls are not my strong suite. But we hear customers, customers often want the best of both world. What we see very often is that customers don't actually choose just Fargate or just Lambda, they'll choose both. Where for different pieces of their architecture, they may pick a different solution. And sometimes that's driven by what they know, sometimes driven by what fits into their need. Some of the lines blur but they're still quite different. Lambda, for example, as a very event driven architecture, it is one process at a time. It has all these event hooks into the rest of AWS that are hard to replicate. And if that's the world you want to live in or benefit from, you're going to use lambda. If you're running long running services or you want a particular size that you don't get in Lambda or you want to take a more traditional application and convert it into a more modern application, chances are you're starting on Fargate but it fits in really well you have an existing operational model that fits into it. So we see applications evolving very interestingly. It's one reason why when we build a service mesh, we thought forward instead. It is almost impossible that we will have a world that's 100% containers, 100% Lambda or 100% EC2. It's going to be some mix of all of these. We have to think about it that way. And it's something that we constantly think about is how can we do things in a way that companies aren't forced to pick one way to it and "Oh, I'm going to build on Fargate" and then months later, they're like, "Yeah, we should have probably done Lambda." And I think that is something we think a lot about, whether it's from a developer's experience side or if it's from service meshes, which allow you to move back and forth or make the mesh. And I think that is the area where you'll see us do a lot more going forward. >> Excellent, so last last question for you Deepak is just give us a little bit as to what, you know, industry watchers will be looking at the container services going forward, next kind of 12, 18 months? >> Yeah, so I think one of the great things of the last 18 months has been that type of application that we see customers running, I don't think there's any bound to it. We see everything from people running microservices, or whatever you want to call decoupled services these days, but are services in the end, people are running, most are doing a lot of batch processing, machine learning, artificial intelligence that work with containers. But I think where the biggest dangers are going to come is as companies mature, as companies make containers, not just things that they build greenfield applications but also start thinking about migrating legacy applications in much more volume. A few things are going to happen. I think we'll be, containers come with a lot of complexity right now. I think you've, if you've seen my last two talks at re:Invent along with David Richardson from the Lambda team. You'll hear that we talk a lot about the fact that we see, we've made customers think about more things than they used to in the pre container world. I think you'll see now that the early adopter techie part has done, cloud has adopted containers and the next wave of mainstream users is coming in, you'll see more attractions come on as well, you'll see more governance, I think service meshes have a huge role to play here. How identity works or this fits into things like control tower and more sort of enterprise focused tooling around how you put guardrails around your containerized applications. You'll see it two or three different directions, I think you'll see a lot more on the serverless side, just the fact that so many customers start with Fargate, they're going to make us do more. You'll see a lot more on the ease of use developer experience of production side because you started off with the folks who like to tinker and now you're getting more and more customers that just want to run. And then you'll see, and that's actually a place where Docker, the company and the project have a lot to offer, because that's always been different. And then on the other side, you have the governance guardrails, and how is going to be in a compliant environment, how am I going to migrate all these applications over so that work will keep going on and you'll more and more of that. So those are the three buckets I'll use, the world can surprise us and you might end up with something completely radically different but that seems like what we're hearing from our customers right now. >> Excellent, well, Deepak, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks so much for joining us again on theCUBE. >> No, always a pleasure Stu and hopefully, we get to do this again someday in person. >> Absolutely, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks as always for watching theCUBE. >> Deepak: Yep, thank you. (gentle music)