>> Presenter: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back everyone, we're live here with the Cube in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018 Europe, via the CFCF Cloud Native Computing foundation, part of the Linux foundation. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here this week. And up next to Yaron Haviv, the founder, and CTO of Iguazio, and Doug Davis, who is the co-chair of the serverless working group, And the CNCF, as well as a developer advocate for IBM, IBM cloud. Great to see you welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for coming in. So love the serverless work, and want to dig into that with a bunch of questions. So, super important trend as we see in that success functions, and all the good stuff that's going on, programmable infrastructure. So I want to dig into that. But first, Yaron, I want to get into what's going on with the business, what's new with you? Iguazio, I saw you're on the sponsorship list here, you're doing a lot of work. You have some news as well. What's going on at KubeCon, Europe for you. >> Yeah, so we're expanding on the business side very nicely, taking more momentum, and this strength towards edge analytics, edge cloud, people starting to understand that central cloud is not the only way to build clouds. We're also progressing nicely on our serverless framework, called Nuclio. It just was published, maybe eight months ago, already made 2000 stars in GitHub, you know, users. We've got some quotes, NPR's around production version of that, including strong partnership with Acer, on being able to run the same functions in Acer, and the cloud in a joint development effort, as well as customers actually using it to build real-time analytics use case in development in the cloud, and deployment in different locations. >> Our audience knows you well, you've been on the cube many times. You also write for us, as well as other blogs with your opinion pieces and commentary. It's always edgy, and strong, and right on the money, I want to ask you your thoughts on serverless, because you were there from day one, I remember the conversation. It wasn't called serverless, we were talking about resource pools and looking at cloud computing, pontificating about, potentially, what Kubernetes and orchestration was going to look like. It's happening. So, are you happy with the progress of the industry, performance of the tech stack? What's your thoughts on serverless today, state of the union? What's your opinion? >> I think it's progressing nicely. I think many people call everything almost, serverless now. You have serverless data bases, you have serverless everything. I think serverless will become, more and more, a feature of a platform, not necessarily a thing. But, like Salesforce will have serverless functions, Wix will have serverless functions, for their own stuff. Obviously cloud platforms, analytic platforms, et cetera. So there'll be, maybe a family of generic ones, and a family of platform specific, that are more use case oriented. >> Does that connect with your business plan for Iguazio? Are you evolving with it? How are you navigating those waters on the adoption side. >> So, you know, I'm sort of trying to be inclusive, I think there's room for more than one serverless framework. There's also OpenWhisk, and Openfazzer, and a few of those. Our focus is mainly real-time analytics, and high performance in data processing. Yes, we can also do other things, but maybe we won't invest too much in some features that are more front-end oriented, or stuff like that. >> John: So you're staying focused on the core. >> Yes, on the other hand, other people to deal with front-end, we'll focus on HTTP, and Blue Logic, and things like that. Most of the frameworks don't have the same capabilities of Nuclio, like real-time stream distribution, real-time, low latencies, all that stuff. So, I think there's room for multiple frameworks, and that's also part of the relationship with Acer. Acer have their own product, which is very good with integration with the Acer stack, and the Acer components. On the other hand there is real-time analytics, in IOT Nuclio is stronger, So, there interest is, rather than saying, no we'll choose just one horse, why won't we enable the market, and allow the people the choice in solution. >> That's great. On IBM's side, Doug I want to get your thoughts on the working group, as well as IBM. You guys have done a lot of open source, IBM well known in the Linux history books, as we know. And now very active again, continuing that mission, congratulations, and thanks for doing that. But the serverless working group. This is a broader scope now, can you just give us some color on the commentary around how that's evolving, because you guys have a lot of blue chip customers. Cloud Foundry just did a survey, I was talking to Abby Kearns yesterday, about the results came back, mainstream tech, not middle of the country, but they heard about Kubenettis like, what's kubenettis? So you have people going, Okay, I've got a job to do, but now kubenettis has arrived, this is a key part of a micro-services focus. >> Right. Yeah, and so the way the serverless group got started was, about a year ago the CNCF TOC, technical oversight committee, decided serverless is kind of a new technology, we want to figure out what's going on in that space, and so they started up a working group. And our job wasn't to really decide what to do about it yet, it was to sort of give us the landscape of what's going on out there, what are people doing? What does serverless even mean, relative to function of the service, or even the other as's, and stuff like that What does a serverless framework generally look like? What do people use it for? Use cases, and stuff like that. And then at the end of that we produced a white paper with our results, as well as a landscape spreadsheet, to say all of the various technologies out there in that space, who's doing what. Without trying to pick winners, just saying what's there. And then we ended with a set of recommendations in terms of what possible next steps the CNCF could do in this space, with an eye towards interoperability building more than anything else, because that's what, really, we care about. We don't want vendor lock in and all the other good stuff. And so we had a set of recommendations, and one of the main ones was, two main things, one was function signatures was a very popular one, but we decided to focus on eventing first, because we thought that might be an easier fruit to pick off the tree first. And so we were going to focus on the formats, or meta data of an event, as it transfers between systems. And so from the service working group we create a cloud events, sort of little sub-group within our working group, to focus on creating a specification around what the meta-data around an event would look like, just so we can get some commonality. That way, at least the infrastructure between the two systems can transfer the events back and forth, much in the same way HTTP layer, doesn't have to understand the body of the message, but can look at common headers, and know how to route it properly. Same kind of thing with eventing. And again, this is all about trying to get interoperability, and portability for applications, and users more than anybody else. And so that's kind of where our focus has been on. How can we help the end user not get locked into one platform, not get locked into one solution, and make their life easier overall. >> Great. Where are you now with that? Is it running? Is it-- >> Overall done. No. >> Oh you're complete, yeah (laughs) >> Doug: But we did that last week. No, actually as of last week though, we just released our first version, 0.1. It's a very, very basic thing, and people might look at it and say, what's the big deal? But even with that simple little thing we've been able to get some level of interoperability between the various platforms. And if people actually join, when is it? Friday 11 o'clock? >> Yaron: Yeah. >> We have a session where someone's going to demonstrate interoperability between, oh gosh, IBM, you guys, Microsoft. >> Google. >> Dameware, Google. All the various companies involved in this thing. >> Love it, that's great. >> Huawei. >> Yeah. They're all going to be either sending or receiving events, using the cloud event format, to prove interoperability around the specification. So we're just at 0.1, we have some way to go, but that first step was huge just to get agreement, and everybody to the table to agree. So it's been really fun >> And it wasn't easy, it wasn't easy. And he's the peacemaker in the group. (laughs) I'm the troublemaker, he's the peacemaker. >> We have a lot of vocal people in the group, yes. (laughs) >> We're not pointing at anyone. >> No, never. >> Important first step obviously, commonality, and having some sort of standardization kind of thinking. >> Doug: Yes. >> Yaron: Don't use the standard word. There are people allergic to that. >> Well yeah, the standard bodies and what not, but in terms of the community work going on, this is super important. What's the impact of that? Obviously it's a small step, but a big step, right? So, what's it going to impact? What's next, what's coming next now that you've got the meta-data, and you've got the interoperability, what's next? >> Well, obviously we need to finish it up, because 0.1 is obviously just the first step. As I said, I think beyond that people are really itching to do function signatures. Because I think if you can get the event format coming in to be somewhat similar, and then you can get portability of moving your function from one platform to another, with hopefully minimal changes from a function signature point of view, you're a long way there towards getting portability for people. And I think that's probably the next step we're going to be looking at. >> What's the technical case from a commercial entity like yourself, who's in business to make money, obviously you have a business to run. As you build out your architecture, where is this going to be applied for you? What's the impact of this project to your product? >> So beyond my strong religion around open APIs, and you've seen the blogs I've written about it, our interest is twofold. First, we're not the market leader, Amazon is the market leader, et cetera. So if we have a better technology, and things are standard, it's easier for customers to move. Second, is we believe in interoperability, closer to the data, closer to where the processing, especially when 5G is going to evolve, and we're going to see bottlenecks between metro locations. Our sales is, go develop in the cloud, and then push it, you know the diesel twin model. This is exactly what we're demonstrating with Acer. You could develop at Acer, our Nuclio functions and deploy in a factory. So it may not be the same platform, it may not be the same serverless framework. So having the ability to run the same code in different frameworks or different platforms is very important. >> And IBM, you're doing a lot of work. OpenWhisk has been something that's gotten a lot of press and notoriety. What's up with you guys and open source? Obviously we see you guys out there doing a lot of studies and a lot content, a lot of coding. What's new over on the IBM side of the house with serverless? >> From my point of view, I think probably the biggest thing is, we're leading the charge in putting OpenWhisk to run on top of Kubernetes. And I think what's interesting about that is we're going to see, probably, some changes to Kubernetes need to be made to get the better performance that we need. Because when OpenWhisk runs vanilla on top of, say run C, or the docker stuff, we have a lot more freedom there. Pausing containers, stuff like that. Stuff you can't do in Kubernetes. We're probably going to see some more pressure on Kubernetes to add some more features, to get the kind of performance numbers we need going forward. >> And scale too, is important to understand. I was just talking about the keynotes earlier with another guest, and Cern is up there. They have a thousand nodes, it's not massive numbers yet, at scale, I mean Amazon are the big clouds, you guys have clouds. You've got a lot of nodes, so it's a lot more scale going on in the cloud as Kubernetes starts to get it's footing. >> Doug: Yep. >> How do you explain Kubernetes, how do both of you guys explain Kubernetes to the IT transformation group out there, that's going cloud operations. >> So what we've seen, because we're also selling an appliance, a full integrated solution, people, in the enterprise, they don't necessarily want to understand low level of Kubernetes. And actually serverless is a nice way for doing that. If you look at the new Nuclio dashboard, you just go, you write some code, you click deploy, it auto scales, you don't need to think about the underlying cube cut whole, the underlying networking. It's all done there for you. And I think, what you see in the trend in the industry, some people call it serverless, some people call it other things, is more and more abstractions, where users will deploy code, will deploy containers, and some frameworks underneath will deal with the high availability, elasticity, all that. I think that's what enterprise customers are looking for. Not everyone is eBay, and Google, and Netflix. >> John: Your thoughts? >> What I think is interesting, I agree with what you said, but I think it's interesting is you actually have a wider range of people, right. You have some people who think Kubernetes, as you said, nice abstraction layer, you don't have to get into the nitty gritty if you don't need to. But Kubernetes does allow you to get under the covers and twiddle those lower level bits if you actually need to. I think that's one of the things that. People who start out with Docker, they like it, it's so simple to use, and it's wonderful, and they love it. But they found it a little bit limiting, because it was too opinionated, or it didn't give you access to things under the covers. Kubernetes, I think, is trying to find that right balance between the two, and I think for the most part they kind of hit it. There's a little bit more of a learning, because it's not quite as user friendly as Docker is. But once you get over that learning hump, all the flexibility it gives you, people seem to really, really, like that. >> What are some of the things that people do under the covers, you mentioned some tweaks here and there. Is it policy based stuff? What's happening under the covers that Kubernetes getting that their groove swing on now. >> There is something called custom resource definition. So for example, when we deploy a Nulio, maybe OpenWhisk or others have it as well. It's essentially, Nuclio becomes another resource that you can actually view when you're running the Kubernetes CLI, or all the other things that manage it's liveliness, et cetera. So those are services that you get for free as a platform. But if you want your function to keep being alive you need to code your functions into the liveliness API, the thing that monitors it staying alive. So you're getting a generic service, but you need to work with it. >> Yeah, actually I'd go one step further with that and abstract it a little. Because obviously Kubernetes has a lot of knobs you can turn, a lot more than other platforms, like Docker has. But I think, for me the biggest benefit of Kubernetes is the plugability. Custom resource definitions, one of them. Ripping out schedulers, or whatever controllers you want, and replace it with your own. That kind of flexibility to say, I don't have to leave the entire Kubernetes world just to run my own scheduler, or write the infrastructure around it, I can plug in my own. That's the kind of flexibility people seem to really, really like. That way they don't feel locked in, they can still play with part of the ecosystem, but get the flexibility and customization they need. >> Awesome, great commentary there. I want to get your thoughts on KubeCon 2018 Europe, for CNCF. Continuing to see growth in CNCF, fantastic to see. As the boat gets full of people, you've got to be the peacemaker if you're co-chair. As people want to start getting their claws into the projects, this imbalance on the community side, are you guys happy with the direction, obviously the success, and the visibility is increased. What's your take on the show here? What are you guys doing? What's going on around the event for you guys. >> So it only started today, but my impression, comparing it with the previous show in the U.S. There are a lot more decision makers here. I don't know if it's the European culture of not funding every student to every show, or just the maturity of the ecosystem. But that's something I've noticed, the discussions I had with decision makers. and they're also not everyone, like in the U.S.A. everyone wants to build it their own way. People here think about operationalizing solutions, so sometimes you need to take something that someone else already built and test. >> And what's the conversations like, that you're having? Is it architecture? Is it deploying production workloads? >> So for us it's a lot about use cases, because we're doing things in a very different way. We're doing some nice demos on how, we're running real-time analytics with the sample database as the core, and we're showing how it's equivalent to another solution that they may build. And that immediately clicks. The other aspect is really, there is so much technology, but we need someone to wrap it up for us as a package solution. >> Doug, your thoughts. First of all I love your shirt, it says code with all the words in the community. >> Doug: Yeah, it's one of my favorite shirts. I like it. >> Love that shirt. I'm just looking at it like, all these questions are popping in my head. What's your plan at the show here? What's your goal, what are you guys doing, what conversations are you hearing in the hallways? >> Well, obviously being from IBM, we just promote IBM as much as we can. But beyond that, really talk about interoperability around what we're doing here, and make sure people understand that we're not here to necessarily sell our products, which we obviously want to do. We want to make sure that we do it in a way that gives people choice. And that's why we have the serverless working group, the cloud events spec. It's all about giving everybody the choice to move from one platform to another, to get their job done. As much as we want people to buy our stuff, if the customer isn't happy in getting what they need, then we're all going to lose. >> And these projects are super important to get the solidarity around these, quote, standards. >> And just to follow on your previous question about the conference, and stuff that we'd like. Obviously it's great that it's growing so much, but what I really like about this conference, beyond some other ones that I've seen is, a lot of the other ones tend to have more marketing flair to them. And obviously there's a little bit of that here, people are promoting their stuff, but I love the fact that most of the stuff that I'm doing here aren't in the sessions. Because the sessions are great and interesting, but it's the hallway chatter, and interacting with people face to face, and not just to meet them, to actually have real technical, deep discussion with them, here at the conference, because everybody's here you can do that much better face to face than you can over a Zoom call, or something else. The productivity from that level is just astronomical, I love it. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And one thing I would add, just my observation, interviews in the hallways, is that we're living, and we talk about this on the Cube all the time, a modern software architectures here. And it's got some visibility around it, it's not filled in yet, but I think there's clear visibility. Cloud, micro-service, interoperability, portability, pretty clear. And I think people are engaged, people are excited. So you have the progressive new guard coming in, on board. Great job. Thanks for coming on the cube, we appreciate that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Iguazio and IBM, here on the Cube, breaking down KubeCon 2018 Europe. More live coverage, stay with us, we'll be right back after this short break. (electronic music)