>> Announcer: From Miami Beach, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. Brought to you by Acronis. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage here in Miami Beach, Florida at the Fontainebleau Hotel for the Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019, where cyber protection is becoming an emerging trend. And we see these once in a while, when you have these big waves, you know, some unique trends. Observability and cloud computing, automation and cloud computing came out of nowhere from these white spaces. Now you're seeing the confluence of data protection and cyber security coming together to the platform. That's what they're talking about here. And my next guest, to break it all down, is an analyst from Forrester Research, Naveen Chhabra. Thanks for joining us today. >> Thank you for having me here. >> So Miami Beach, not a bad venue is it? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. (laughing) >> Get a dip in the ocean there, the water's warm. I got to ask you this, break down this market. Acronis is on here earlier. They've got a story to tell, and their story is not something that's obvious. It's kind of a new category, I guess, emerging, not really a traditional category from a research standpoint. But cyber protection by combining traditional thinking about data protection and cyber security software, bringing them together into one thinking, wholistic data model, with a platform that can enable services. I mean, this is a classic platform. This is what these guys have. What's your take on the industry? Is the industry ready for this? Is this a real trend? >> The industry certainly needs the technology, and I'll give you some examples as to why. So if you think upon the ransomware attacks that have happened in the past, the ransomware attacks would cripple any organization, right? And the best defense that an organization has to recover from, backups. Now, what that means is, okay, I can certainly recover from a backup which was taken last hour, last yesterday or a few days back, a few weeks back. But the most important question is how do I find out that the last copy or the last snapshot is a clean, uninfected copy? Because that's important, right? So if you recover from an infected copy, you're going to be hit again. And you don't want that, right? So, the million dollar question there is how do I get back to the copy which is clean and uninfected? Right? And you cannot do that traditionally the way organizations have been structured. You have infrastructure and operations guys, those who are responsible for operations, you know, keeping copies in their place, wherever required, and then you have the second group, which is security and risk, which is responsible for identifying all things security, right? But, ransomware is one thing in the industry which is pulling these two teams together. But the organizations are not ready yet. In one of the surveys that I did, I asked the respondents, "Do you have these two teams working together "to solve this problem?" And the answer was abysmally low. You know, no they don't work with each other. >> You point at a great point. I think one of the things you highlight there that I think is really critical is backup and recovery was because of some operational disruption. >> Naveen: Yes. >> Outage, flood, so rollback. The disruption wasn't a hack, so to that point, all those mechanisms around, generations of backup and recovery didn't actually take into account security. >> Exactly. >> Meaning the malware or the infection, the disruption is coming from a secure breach, not some electrical outage or some sort of other disruption. And they used to call that non-disruptive operations. I remember all the stories when we just talked about that. >> Right. >> Now it's not that anymore. The disruption is coming from security, so how do you bake security in from day one? That's the million dollar question that I always hear. What's your answer to that? What's the industry doing to get security baked in? What are some of the mechanisms you've seen successful for a large enterprise to adopt a plan that way? >> So I, specifically from a technology standpoint, I see very little efforts. The technology vendors are doing their own efforts, but you know, my guidance to clients is to be proactive in terms of your using the right storage for that matter. Let's say, if you have a WORM storage which can not be encrypted. Written once, cannot be changed, right? Use that model which will ensure that whatever you backed up yesterday, one, the backup is not infected, right? Or even from your core business application standpoint, you know, you want to schedule the data to be kept at a particular point in time to that WORM storage, for example, right? I don't see much of an effort from the organizations because, again, inner security is a domain which is handled by security, backup has not looked at using WORM as a potential storage target. >> WORM being "Write Once Read Many" for the folks-- >> Yes. >> at home tracking this. >> Right, and not that they do not know the technology. They know the technology. It's also about thinking out of the box and applying what's available to another-- >> To a known problem, right? >> Yes. >> And ransomware is so bad, it's such a hard problem to solve. I've heard (mumbles) has been in solution, WORM's a good one. That's the first time I heard that. That's awesome. It makes sense. >> Absolutely. >> But how do you deploy that to scale throughout the enterprise where you had these traditional work stream workflows that-- >> That becomes a problem. >> A people problem. You've been doin' a lot of work around the people equation. People process technology, everyone says it's digital transformation. But the people equation is a hard nut to crack. What's your take on the people situation? >> It certainly is a hard nut to crack because security would not trust more infrastructure in place that our guys would be doing. They've been told to operate in that model and now comes a situation, ransomware situation, where they're asked to trust each other and work with each other. Boy, that's not happening, is it? (chuckles) >> Yeah, they hate each other before, now they have to like each other. I mean, that's been a 20 year, 10 year, 5 year you've seen it evolve over time. Dev Ops is certainly with the cloud enforced a lot of that. That's kind of what brought people together under the Dev Ops infrastructure's code. But we're talkin' about application development that's growing like crazy. (mumbles) C.s want to build in-house stacks and communicate via A.P.I.s and, or some data-sharing with vendors. So this idea of a lot of this there's a restructuring that's going on at least from a architectural, technically, and staffing. What's some of the best practices that you've seen? What is some of the customer environments out there that you can talk to to show and point at a success story? >> I think some of the examples I've seen organizationally addressing this problem, wholistically, is to start from the top. I came out with this report a couple of years back titled Ransomware is a Business Continuity Issue. So don't approach it with a technology solution. Eventually, you will end up in adopting that same technology but I didn't define why do you need to use that technology so that it ties up your business requirements. So start from identifying that as a business risk which I see very little organizations do that today. Cyber risks are not identified as vulnerable as important a risk as they should be. So start off from that and trickle down into the next sub-steps that you must be taking, going eventually to the same technology. >> You know, one of the things I want to get your thoughts on is that obviously the digital threats are the industrialization of automating attacks. You're seeing Zero-day, you're seeing all this malware out there. You got surface errors with I.O.T.s increasing. So, the threats are coming. They're not going away. In fact, they're going to be increasing over time. Maybe get, you might not see it like D-DOS kind of been distracted away. But now the complexity is a huge issue because the costs will kick off of the complexity, this is something that Acronis is talking about and this is what I want to get your thoughts on. Complexity is one of those things that if you don't solve it and you look the other way, it gets more expensive to solve over time. So as complexity piles up, it's like climate change or cleaning up the Boston harbor. The longer you wait the more expensive it's going to be. >> Exactly. >> So that's startin' be be realized in some people's minds. They call it re-platforming, digital transmission, there's just buzz words for that. But I think this is a reality that people like, "Oh, I got to get... "I got to take care of business." I got I.O.T., I got complete industrial I.O.T., N.I.O.C. I got all those data centers movin' to the cloud. I got to clean up the complexity problem. What's the answer? How do you, What's the research tell you? >> Unfortunately, there's no easy answer because all the tools, technologies the organizations are using, they're using it for a purpose. So silos is a challenge, increasing silos is a challenge. So, I would highly recommend organizations start to think about reducing the silos, not be reducing the tools, but by potentially looking at cross-liberating by integrating, right? And one of the examples here is very important around recovery from ransomware attacks. So, going back to the point that, "Okay, how do you identify where is the right, "clean copy of the backup?" So these two teams would have to work together. Now the teams would work right out of their heads. They got to depend on technology, right? So that's where the requirement of the tools, themselves, working with each other, security to identifying, "Okay, when to do the forensics tracing "you know where the ransomware part "would identify when did the ransomware get in? "When did the malware get in? "Which systems did it infect?" And then, the backup tools correspondingly acting on those backup instances which have been identified as clean and uninfected. Easier said than done, but that's a part forward. >> And the other thing to make that more complex is that you said business continuity before, that's a people issue, as well. Not just technical process. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, so the two has to have a plan. Like, "What's the plan?" Do they actually huddle and do dry runs? Do they have fire drills? I mean, these are the things that most cyber groups do. They tend to have, you know, very structured approaches to either incidents, response,... So as these worlds come together, what does your research tell you around (chuckles) the questions of working together, proactively, show you? >> Interestingly, enough. I, a couple of years back, I did a survey asking those organizations who have been hit by ransomware attack and have lost data. I asked them, "How many of you have these two teams "working together?" Apparently, you know, some thirty-odd percent responded and said, "Yes, we have these two teams working together." But among, you know, asking final questions, qualifying questions about, "Yes, these two teams "work together," but do they effectively and eventually get to where they should be. Like, have a common plan, right? I think three, four, five percent of the respondents would say, "Yes, we do have a common operating, "understood plan "between the two teams." But largely, all I can say almost all organizations do not have that plan, unfortunately. >> You're, I think, one of the first ransomware experts I've had on theCUBE that's done a lot of research in the area, directly. So I got to ask you on ransomware, first of all it's really bad news and it comes from multiple actors. People lookin' for cash and also state-sponsored, which I believe is goin' on a lot, but no one's reporting on it, but, you know, still that's not proofed yet, but I still get a feeling it's done. On ransomware, do you have any data or insights around if the people clean up their act and get fixed, because I see a lot of ransomware coming back to the same places where they hit once, solve it, pay some bit-coin or whatever their extortion currency is, and then they get hit again. And hit again. Because (clap) there's cash there. Do you see that as a trend? What's the data? Is there any anecdotal insight or are people gettin' hit twice? Three times? >> There are incidents, and I was speaking on, you know, on a panel like half an hour back, and I gave this example. There was a hotel chain in central Europe which was attacked. And the key management system, like if you're one of the guests of that you would not be able to get in, into our rooms. And while they paid a ransom for to release that key management application, they didn't secure that infrastructure and applications further, which was required. And three months later, they were attacked once again. So such incidents are happening. And that's where, you know, guidance from Forrester where we have published a paper about when to consider to pay ransom. Because, you would not be sure that you get the keys. You get the keys for all the data? You don't get any traces of malware left behind or a new malware coming in. You never know, right? >> Of course, yes. >> While this is an untrusted world, but you got to trust if you're paying. (chuckles) >> Yeah, well I think I would bet that the criminals would come back for, you know, new shoes, new coat, new car... They need new things. They need cash (clap), they're going to come back to the bank. >> Absolutely! And they're coming back to basic prey. >> Naveen, thanks for comin' on. I want to get your thoughts on the industry as we wrap up this segment on the trends around cyber protection, data protection, platform. You know, really we're living in a cyber data-driven world. And data is a key part of it. What's the most important trend or story that you think needs to be told or is being told today, in terms of customers to pay attention to? What's, is it ransomware? What's, in your mind, are the top three things that are the most important stories that must be covered or need to be covered, or aren't covered? >> So I think it's not just my story, it's about the state of affairs at an industrial level, globally. I was referring to the World Economic Forum where all the global risks that economies face. It could be famine. It could be a country going bankrupt, right? It could be any other risk that the industry faces. We have seen that, to that starting the World Economic Forum did, in the last 10 years, cyber risk has started to appear on the list of top four, top five risks for the last three years. >> In the world? >> Globally. >> Global issues? >> Global issues, yes. And one of our research also tells us that the number of ransomware incidents have grown 500% in the preceding last 12 months. And the impact, intensity, and frequency of a ransomware attack is simply great. Many organizations are actually shutting down operations. Medical practice in mid-west, called upon the practice and said, "Oh, they are closing operations?" And in fact, it's in public domain. "We're closing operations, you can come back to us "for whatever data we currently have on you." But, I mean I think that from a regulation standpoint, people (mumbles) so that you have to keep control of the data and also be able to provide. But guess what? In this case, the medical practice doesn't have data. If you were their client, if you were a patient they don't have any data on you. Guess what? If it was there for years, you've lost years of your medical data. >> So global issues, ransomware's real and cyber attacks are happening at high frequency. >> Absolutely. >> Naveen, thanks for comin' on. Naveen Chhabra, senior analyst at Forrester Research here inside theCUBE. We are at the Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier. Back with more coverage for two days here, in Miami Beach, after this short break. Stay with us. (techno music)

(snazzy music) >> From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE, covering WTG Transform 2019, brought to you by Winslow Technology Group. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and this is the CUBE exclusive coverage of WTG Transform 2019. It's the Winslow Technology's Dell MC user group, and therefore, we are always thrilled when, not only do we have a user on the program, but we have a local user who's also the Chief Information Officer. Shawn Rothman, who is the Chief Information Officer, CIO, of the town of Weymouth. Coming up from the south shore, a nice easy drive when the traffic isn't too bad. Shawn, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, glad to be here. It's Boston though, so there is no such thing as the traffic being easy. >> Yeah, the traffic and the weather. Just wait a little while, it'll change greatly. We've got the mast plate right behind us with Fenway, and yeah, it is starting to get to the evening. You know, Friday commute back. But uh, you're probably going to the Sox game, so you won't have to worry about that. >> Exactly. That's my plan, is to wait it out. >> All right. So, as I mentioned, town of Weymouth about 12 miles from where we're sitting right now. You know, you're the CIO. Give us a little bit about, you know, what that means to be the CIO of a town here in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. >> Yeah, so you know, IT is so different when you get out of the corporate setting. We have a lot of high needs or requirements. There's a lot of public safety needs, things like that, that are consuming often. But the drive isn't always there to take advantage of it, so we've been continually working to grow new things, to grow new technology in Weymouth. We uh, I'm really struggling, sorry. >> Yeah, no it's great Shawn. Give us a little bit about, you know, what you can, how many people that you've served in the community, and your team itself, how many people you've managed, just to give us a little bit of a scope. >> So, in Weymouth we have about 500 full time employees within the town side and another, you know, more than 2,000 if you take in our schools. Now we have a separate IT department for our schools. We share combined networks, so we have a private dark fiber network that runs throughout the town that we share. I provide services for police, fire, DPW, emergency management, finance, all the things that you kind of do, public works. It's a lot of different areas. There's a lot of different needs and ways that we can meet the needs of the public. >> Okay, that's awesome. So underneath that, so infrastructure is a piece of what your group owns, yes? >> Yes. >> Give us a little bit, kind of scope that out for us, what that means when kind of the pieces that allow you to deliver those services to your constituents. >> Right, so it starts with lots of things people don't see, right? So, IT is often very hidden. If we're doing our job well, people don't really notice us. So, like I said, we have dark fiber all throughout the town that enables us to do everything from public safety communication, data replication, allows for DR so we have multiple sites for our data. We run Compellent SANs, based off running Dell servers, running VM ware. And, we run two different set ups. One at the town hall and another at my police department, and that provides my disaster recovery and things like that. From there, then you start looking towards facing of customers. We need to run bills for taxes, and water, and utilities, things like that, so, all those pieces start to play in. We're continually looking to grow in that area, so, one of the areas that we're actually looking at right now is increasing our presence online, as far as people's ability to apply for permits online to have inspectional services done online, to pay their bills online. You know, I think everybody wants their experience online to be Amazon, right? Go, open up your cart, buy up, put a bunch of things in there, hit pay, and be done. And, that's the direction we're trying to move, these days. >> Shawn, some of the fascinating conversations I've had in the last few years is when you talk to government agencies, municipalities, and the like, and that word gets thrown out, digital transformation, and what that means from you. Right, you know, today, you know, me? I live in a town here in Massachusetts. Yeah, gosh, why can't everything just be something that, I talk to my home assistant and it just gets done magically, and it's nice and easy? But you know, it's a journey that we all need to go on and there's some things that, you know, you don't have unlimited budget and unlimited head count to be able to manage that, so talk to us a little bit about, you know, does digital transformation mean something in your world? And, how are you helping to deliver some of those mobile enabled services? >> Yeah, so that really, I run into really two challenges there, well multiple challenges, more than two, but two really big challenges. One is getting people used to the idea of doing things in a way that they haven't done it before. You don't need to come to the town hall, go online and do it. You have to understand that billing, if you pay online, you pay with a credit card, there's charges that get assumed. With Amazon, that gets eaten by the product managers and things like that. Well, we don't have that, so those are surprise fees for people. So, those are challenges to teach people about. We also then have problems with teaching people within the town. Hey, I've always done my business x way. People come and see me, they do things, they fill out this form, they move along, and it's kind of transforming their abilities to understand and move in that technical age, also. Those are kind of the two biggest areas. Outside of that, is, you know, the up side is huge. We're talking to another community that has kind of gone to these things online, and they say they're getting like 40 to 60 percent of their building permits between midnight and 6:00 AM. That's a whole new world for the way the government has worked in the past. >> Yeah. Shawn, come on. I live in a town here in Massachusetts. We are proud of our 300 year old legacy and the way things are done here, which is a little bit different than the conversation we're generally having in IT these days. >> Yes, for sure. (chuckling) >> Great. So, you mentioned a little bit, you know, I hear Compellent SANs. You've got disaster recovery and all these pieces, so tie us into this event. What brings you to WTG Transform? Of course, I know Compellant has a long history of the team here, Scott and the team, so how long have you been working with them? And, tell us a little bit about the relationship. >> We've had a Compellent SAN actually installed by Winslow, it's got to be nine plus years ago to get started, and it's just kind of been one of those things that grew. You know, we started with Compellent, and then Dell bought Compellent, and we had HP servers, and while it was nice to have everything together, so we moved to our Dell servers, but I love to come here and see kind of where things are moving, where Winslow is going, where there's opportunities for me kind of to meet people's needs in ways that they're looking for that maybe I don't know about, ways I can protect our data, ways I can protect my constituents and my residents. Those are all concerns, and this is a great opportunity for kind of see all those different pieces, to get my hands on things once in a while, or to hear something that would get me moving in a direction maybe I hadn't previously looked at. >> Shawn, is there any initiatives you have, or technologies that you're poking at that you'd like to understand more, or things that you're looking for from kind of the vendor community that would make your world easier? >> It's hard to know what you don't know, and so there's always something new. Every time I get here, I see something that I'm like, "Man, this could really be transformative for us." It's often different to figure out how and when to implement those things. So, I don't know that I have, you know, I don't know that thing I don't know yet, I think I haven't found that key hot button for this year, I don't think. >> You bring up a really good point, a question I actually asked for years is, how do you keep up? And, of course the answer is, I don't care if you're the smartest person at the most important company in the world, no one can keep up with all of it all the time. So, the question is, who do you rely on to help you to understand and learn some of those new things? >> Yeah, so I mean, we all look at things from media, and there's Spiceworks is a great community I use, but my VARs are kind of, that's really where the rubber meets the road for me, And, you know, Winslow has just been, there are many things that I would, I'll take and leave. There's technology I use, and if I had to replace it, I get rid of it. Well, Compellent, Winslow, that combo is, I mean, it's called dead-hand technology, I mean, it doesn't leave, it's not going any place. They're crucial to me, knowing where to go, how to go. They help me figure out road maps, they've always kind of gone above and beyond in making sure that my needs are met, and that I know the direction things are going before I get jammed into a spot where I can't get out. >> Yeah, so last question I have for you, Shawn. CIO of a town here in Massachusetts, where do you find it kind of different and the same compared to the peers that you'd be talking to at an event like this? >> It's hard to find other venues like this. There's some government run programs, but they're not the same. >> So, I guess just to, what I'm asking for is when you talk to your peers here, do you have some of the same concerns and the same looking at technology, or are there opportunities or challenges you have working for a town government that maybe the average mid-sized business wouldn't? >> Sorry, yeah. Yeah, I think we share a lot of security concerns. Security, I think our concerns are very much aligned, right, we're all worried about what's happening outside our environment, we're concerned about the weakest link, which tends to be our end users ability to click a button, but outside of that, when we get to like how business really works, at times we're very different, at times we're very similar. So, my needs for disaster recovery, again, two buildings across town, that works for me. If I lose those two buildings across town, two, three, four miles, I've lost everything I care about, where a company, you lose something, you need to have backups across the country. So, there's some different needs, but the reality is we both need to protect our data, we both want to provide quality service to the people that depend on us, we both want to be moving in positive directions, we both have constraints on our budgets. So, I think there's a lot of overlap for me that I can pick up information here, even if sometimes the exact model they use isn't the same as what I would use. >> All right, last question I have for you, Shawn is, when I travel, you know, I live about 26.2 miles from downtown Boston, but I say I'm from Boston because people definitely outside this country, and even across this country, don't necessary know much of Massachusetts, so when you talk to somebody, how do we put Weymouth on the map? >> So, Weymouth is on the south shore of Boston, but generally, I would say the same thing, I'm from Boston, but we're, like you said, I mean, we're less than 10 miles really from the edges of Boston. We're right along the water, we have one, actually, one of the busiest ports in Massachusetts, outside of Boston, itself, Boston harbor, and so, you know, we're kind of right here in the middle of everything. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well it's getting close to beach season, it's actually the first day of Summer here. So, Shawn, thank you so much for sharing this story, town of Weymouth, and what's happening in your world, really appreciate you joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, we'll be back with more coverage here from WTG Transform 2019. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching the CUBE. (snazzy music)

>> Wait. Welcome back to Boston, everybody. This is the Cube. We're live on a special presentation of BMC Day atop of sixty State Street in Boston, Massachusetts. Beautiful view of Boston Harbor. Evelyn Ehrlich is here. She's the vice president and research director for service delivery at Force that we're going to talk about job control, language and cobalt. No, I'm just kidding. We're talking about service delivery. Who'd Evelyn? Yes. So you have a really deep background in it, And I know what J C l stands for, So I had to make that joke. So anyway, uh, welcome to the cubes. Great to see you gave a fantastic presentation today. Who doesn't need better service delivery? It's an imperative for the digital transformation. So, again, welcome to the Cube. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about what you do at Forrester, what your area is, and I want to get into your presentation today. >> Sure. So service delivery. Basically, when the application development team is ready to hand us something, whatever that issa Web service and application a service, we actually make sure that that gets to the work force or to the customer. So anything from Police Management Service Management, the front end relative to the service desk. Tell them anything around management after a performance of the applications operations. Anything like that is all about service delivery. >> And they were two. Two pieces of your talk really struck out to me on Dino. No George for a long time. So two things to majorities that you don't like to use one is users, right end users use it, and then the other really was. So talk about it. Why those terms don't make sense in this digital economy. And what does make sense? >> Yeah, so your users, it almost seems like to me, it is something where people are putting folks into a box that they are that they can like addicts. You know, user. Like I said, in a camp in the drug industry, we have users because they're addicts way have to somehow keep them at bay. We have to somehow keep them low and our engagement with them. It's no, it's not going to be enjoyable. It's not going to be fun, and it's not going to be actually effective. Unfortunately, these users today those are our workforce. There's our employees There's our partners and customers. They have other places to go. They don't need us and technology. So if we don't shift that thinking into that, their customers, so that we can actually enable them, we're might be able to lose our jobs. Because there's outsourcers service providers to workplace services, for example, as many companies out there who provide the service desk who provide of VD I who provide the services cheaper, faster and better. But what we have been lost or what if that's gonna happen? We are losing the understanding of the business for losing the connection to the business, and is that that could be a strategic conversation right? There should be a strategic conversations, not justa cost conversation. And when we think about user, it's all about cost. If you think about customer, its value and relevancy, >> okay, And of course, that leads to not its business. There's no such thing as a project. >> No, there isn't because anything we do if we think of information technology is anything almost like in the back room. It's something which is hidden in a data center somewhere in a storage or a server or in a device and it doesn't really add any value. >> Boiler, the boy, the room >> Exactly and way have done that. We have massaged it, what with whatever way measured the heck out of it. We measure meantime to repair. Well, who cares? It's time to business impact. This what we need to think about. So if we start thinking about customers to empty, TR becomes time to business impact. We're now thinking outside in and the same is true with I t. If we just use it for technology sake to Dr Information, we're not connected if the business, because it is about business technology, is dear to win, retain and sustain our customers. If we don't do that, we become borders. We become the, you know, the companies who all have not focused on the winning technology to make them successful. >> You had a really nice graph, simple sort of digital failing digital masters, and I were in between talked a little about things like I Till and Deb ops, and they feel sometimes like counter counter to each other. Once one's fast one feels home. As you talk to customer, you talk to customers. What can they expect? How long might these transformations take? Or what of the one of those key stepping stones you talked about? It being a journey? >> How do you >> will think about all this change? >> But that that's a good question. It's a very difficult question to have an answer to, and I think it has to. It has to be a little bit more compartmentalized. We have to start thinking a little bit more in smaller boxes, off influences or or areas where we can make some progress. So let's take, for example, Dev Ops and Vital and connect the process release, which is an I told process into this notion. If we combine Deaf ops and Tyto release, we're starting to see that the police management process. It's now a process which is done very agile very much. There is a lot more things behind that process and a lot more collaboration between a D and D and I, you know, to make the process of faster process. So we're now married, I told release management with the journey of Death, Bob's as we're starting to see release cycles off one day. Lookit, lookit Amazon. What they do I mean again, Amazon is a very extreme. Not everybody needs a police processes Amazon has, because it's just not that not every pieces is in the Amazon business. Maybe in ten years, who knows? Maybe in five, but those kinds of things that marriage happens through, more off for design thinking. And I think that's the practical way. Let's not adopt a Iittle blandly and say, All right, we're going to just redo our entire twenty six processes. Let's look at where is the problem? What, where? Where's the pain? What is the ninety day journey to solve that pain? Where's the six months? Nine months, twelve months, twenty four months? And if twenty four months is too far out, which I believe it's staying a twelve month road map and start adjusting it that way and measure it, measure where you are. Measure where you want to go and prove that you have done to Delta. Because if I don't measure that, I won't get funding for support, right? I think that's key. >> Devlin. You talked about the, you know, pray or a predator, right? That's good of a common theme that you hear conferences like this isn't a zero sum game, is is the taxi drivers. You know, the taxi companies screwed is, you know, the hotels in big trouble. I mean, Ken, cos you know who are sort of caught flat footed transform and begin to grow again. Talk about that zero sum game nous. >> Yeah, I think I think there is. There is hope. So I hope it's what dies last week saying right. But there is hope, hope if customers of organizations he's enterprise to see that there's a challenger out there. And if they don't necessarily stand up to fight that challenges start innovating in either copying or leveraging or ten. Gently do something else. Let me give you an example. When about two years we had a two years ago with an event in London and stuff I got Square was completely blocked off by the taxi drivers because uber was there were striking against uber or they were going on. It wasn't really a real strike was in London. It's a little bit of a challenge with unions, but anyway, instead, off going on a strike, why did they not embrace whatever they needed to and example is in the cab At that time, you could not use American Express or discover credit card uber. I never have tipple any money out of my pocket because that's a convenience. It's easy. It's enjoyable. >> Love it, >> We love it. It's simple. So why don't these other companies this cos the taxi cannot? Why don't the equip that technology in such a way? They can at least start adopting some of those innovations to make it a even part right. Some of the other things, maybe they will never get there, because there whatever limitations are there. And so that's what that's what I think needs to happen. These innovators will challenge all these other companies and those who want to stay alive. I mean, they want to because they have for street is forcing them to stay alive. They are the ones who will hopefully create a differentiation because of that >> essay, really invention required. It's applying technology and process that's well established. >> Thinking outside in thinking of you and him and me as >> customers, it becomes, you know, who just does the incumbent get innovation before the the challenger gets distribution? Exactly. You know, Huber, lots of cars. I don't have to buy them, but somebody like Tesla isn't necessarily disrupting forward because they don't have the men. They can't distribute it faster than you know. It depends where you are in the distribution versus innovation. So it's in the brief time. We have love to talk about the landscape. So and that's particularly the transformation of beings. BMC Public Company to private They were under a lot of fire, you know, kind of flattish revenues. Wall Street pound. You got companies like service now picking away at the established SM players. We're talking off camera, saying that's begun to change. Give us the narrative on that that sequence and where we are today. Yeah, we're going. >> Yeah, so if you go back, maybe me way back seven years ago or so you know, it started service now they had a fairly easy game because BMC with a very old platform, it wasn't really it wasn't. There was no fight. Um, and I think they were the enterprises. We're ready for something new, and it is always some new vendor out there is a new shiny object, and I have teenagers, so they always spent the next latest iPhone or whatever. I would >> sort of wave >> so So. And and it kept going in the other vendors into space hp, cia, IBM really had no challenge had no, no, didn't give service now a challenge either because the SAS cloud, the adoption of the cloud in this space was absolutely important. And service now was the first one to be on the cloud. BMC was not really doing much with remedy force at the time. Itis them on demand was in an A S P model. Not really an itis, um, and so service not just took names and numbers and that just grew and grew and steamrolled. Really? All of them and customers just were like, Oh, my God, this is easy. I loved it. Looks it loves it looks beautiful. It's exciting >> over for the >> same thing that innovation, right, That challenge, they served the customers. Then suddenly what happened is service now grew faster than native. You experienced some growing pains Customer saying my account rep. I haven't seen him for a while. They changed the pricing model a little bit too started to blow up their solution. And now board nebula, which is the ninety operations management solution der extending into financials and they're bolstering themselves into more of an enterprise solution, which is where BMC already has been. But they lost the connection to the customer. BMC did not love the customers at that time. Now, through some executive changes to really starting to realize that the install base they need to hug them, they're back in the game >> and watching >> service now. And they're going private. As you were asking the question earlier, try about giving them the funding to invest in R and D. >> It's so necessary if I want to give me your take on icy service now. Is someone on the collision course with sales Force? In a way, where does BMC go for to expand their their tam and to grow? >> Yeah, I said, I think so. So on the first comment Sales force and service. Now, absolutely now the CEO of service now does not think that sales force is his target off competition. I think it has to. He has to, because it is about business applications, everything. It's everything exactly So sales force and service now in I don't know. Is that the year you know, wherever Chris >> No, no, no, >> no. But they will there will collapse. Deborah Crash or you'LL see a fight. I think BMC should stay and really extend in this digital performance management in this operational management and really make it intelligent, intelligent decisions for operation for operations to become automated. To have a staff of eighty eight PM solution the application dependency mapping solution happening to be one of the best, really one of the best in the market. And customers love it. Tying that into two side intelligence, giving them the ability to understand before it happens not when it happens or after and then drive intelligence into different organizations to cmo the CEO, the CFO. Because that's what basis technology is all about. It's not about the journey anymore. They have that capability with products where service now does not have that >> great insight from a sharp analyst. Evan are like Evelyn Evelyn Ehrlich. Thanks very much for coming on the Cube. Forced to research wicked, we find more about the research that you do force the dotcom, obviously, but anything new for you, any upcoming events that we should know about where people should watch >> you go into Crystal Rica, Nicaragua >> mochi ice all right. We'LL leave you alone for a while, right, Evelyn? Great to meet you. Thanks for coming on. I keep right there, buddy. We're back with our next guest Is the Q ber live from BMC Day in Boston right back.