>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. (jingle) >> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE. My name is Lauren Cooney, and I'm here today with Matt Johnson who is a technologist at Cisco, with Cisco DevNet. Hi Matt. >> Hi, how's it going? Good to see you again. >> Pretty good. Good to see you again too. So what's going on here? What's going on with the show and what are you working on? >> Oh, sure. So the show in general is just this ability for us, you know, Cisco DevNet have always had quite a large and a growing presence at Cisco Live, kind of Cisco's, Europe and US yearly conferences. But this is the second year we've done Create, and it's really an opportunity to kind of take the real developer angle, the makers, the API integrators, kind of the real, kind of developer ecosystem that's going around Cisco's products and our APIs, and just kind of focus on that audience. So, you know, all the content here is developer for developer. And so it's just really nice to be able to experiment in a bit more of an open format. >> Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of that DIY environment of developers that are coming in and really doing all this stuff and starting to innovate on their own. >> Yeah, absolutely. And what I'm really excited about here we have the, we had kind of a two-day hackathon running at the same time as the event, and so, instead of that just being a little bit of time spent between sessions, these are teams that have already kind of been working behind the scenes on the run-up to the event, so they've already kind of met each other virtually through collaboration, they've already worked out what kind of problem space they want to solve, they've already started working on kind of sample and PLC code, so the idea that at the end of a two-day conference we could actually see some working solutions to real problems that our partners and our customer ecosystem is seeing, I think that's quite-- >> That's great. >> An exciting idea. >> Yeah, Mandy Whalen was just on with us. >> Oh, fantastic. >> And she actually talked a little bit about that, and you know, so these guys will be up for 24 hours hacking on stuff. Hopefully we'll see some great solutions come the end and you know, we'll talk about it here on theCUBE. >> Yeah. >> So tell me about what you're doing today at Cisco DevNet. >> Sure, so from one style of hacking to another, we are actually running this demo called the Black Hat White Hat Challenge. And I went to, I've always been a bit of a kind of hobbyist pentester. >> Lauren: Never, no. >> I liked breaking things from a young age. And I got to attend my first Defcon in Las Vegas last year, and coming from an evangelism background, coming from kind of doing workshops and talks and demos, I was absolutely amazed at the interactivity of pretty much everything that goes on at the black hat hacking conference, sorry the Defcon hacking conference. My apologies. They have, you know, hands-on IoT villages where you can go and try hacking against all the hardware, there is kind of labs and tutorials for people that are maybe just getting into kind of that side of hacking and penetration testing. So I kind of brought that back and I've always had a passion for security, and IoT nowadays, we are in a situation where a lot of these devices we are starting to bring into our homes and our businesses and things, are built to a budget. They are built cheap, they're not security devices. People aren't thinking of security, they're thinking of functionality when they're building those, so someone that makes fridge freezers isn't going to be thinking about the 10 year security roadmap for that fridge freezer. They're going to be thinking about selling the latest smart freezer. >> Lauren: Exactly. >> And so I wanted to kind of bring some of that hands-on Defcon-style hacking into a real-world scenario. So at security conferences and at developer conferences, we always talk about things being insecure, and we talk about needing to think about security. But what we have is a booth here where we actually take off-the-shelf IoT devices, and in a curated path we are getting attendees with no background in kind of pen testing to use real-world hacking tools and real exploits against those devices, to build their access into that network and eventually get to the goal, which is getting into an electrical safe with like a price inside. And all of that is real off-the-shelf IoT. It's real security. And the aim of that is to kind of-- >> So they are actually cracking the safe. >> They are cracking the safe, they are cracking into Wi-Fi. They're getting onto the guest Wi-Fi and then finding a vulnerability in the router which gets them onto the wired network, so that'd be like a guest network in a corporate environment or a guest network in a hotel, getting you onto the hotel's infrastructure network and then to a camera. >> So this is like straight up hacker one. >> Straight up, yeah, exactly, right? Which is perfect. >> Lauren: This is great. >> Yeah, exactly. So that's what we're doing and the idea is to just to kind of stop talking about it and start showing. This is not stuff you need to be super good at. This is stuff you can Google. The tools are out there, the tools are getting more and more easy to use. And also vulnerabilities are becoming more and more common because of the growth of IoT. There were double the number of CVE, like known vulnerabilities in the wild in 2017 than there were in 2016. >> Okay. >> And that's because of this constant pace of new devices. So we're kind of showing that these are really crackable by anyone with a bit of time and research. And then also showing kind of what can be done about that. And, you know, even without kind of the proactive and firewalls and things like that, just getting a developer audience thinking about this stuff, getting them, you know, fresh in their mind, you know, these are the kind of places we should be focusing on IoT security because it's these developers that will be writing code and those products today-- >> I think that's great. And I think security is so important today with everything going on, and then there's Facebook and testimonies that are happening today, and you know, lots of different things. Now, what are you using to actually kind of fill these holes, fill these kind of security vulnerabilities that you're using with these off-the-shelf IoT devices? >> Sure, so what we are showing is how kind of, if you know if you have these devices on your network, obviously layering things like Cisco's net-gen firewalls in line with those devices, has signatures that will detect. It's not going to patch the device itself, 'cause that might be from another vendor or an IoT camera or a light switch or something, but it's going to detect the malicious traffic trying to attack that device and drop it. So you're kind of protecting your perimeter, you're stopping a vulnerable device becoming an actual hack. Alternatively from a personal perspective, as we start looking at how we consume hardware in our homes and businesses, I actually really like kind of the Meraki model and the Nest Cam model, and you know, all the other camera vendors which charge you with subscription, 'cause if you buy hardware one-off, you have no idea whether that price for that hardware allotted budget for the development team to keep thinking about security or whether that team doesn't exist anymore and they're off building their next product. >> Lauren: Yup. >> Whereas if you're buying something on kind of a subscription basis, even though the hardware is in your home, you know that their profit is based on them keeping your product up-to-date. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> So you expect, you know, real-time updates, you expect timely security updates. And so I think that kind of a software as a service style delivery of on-prem hardware is definitely a more secure approach. >> Yeah, and the Meraki model is definitely moving forward as one of the prevalent models that we, you know, Cisco has. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> And it's, you know, that plug and play, easy-to-use, get it up and running, et cetera. >> Exactly, and then on the back of that you know that there's people working on those security things, which isn't something that you think about when you buy it for its APIs and its plug-and-play in its ease-of-use, but just knowing that that is there and, you know, you're paying for that development, is a good thing. >> Where do you see most of these vulnerabilities, and I know you have a lot of background in cloud computing and you know, in these arenas, but where do you see most of these vulnerabilities? >> Matt: So-- >> It's a big question. >> Yeah. I mean a lot of the, hackers are going to wherever, you know, is easiest for the amount of time and effort. Certainly when we see kind of malicious actors kind of looking for a large footprints, large, building botnets et cetera. There could be a very, very clever attack that requires a lot of time and effort, or there could be an IoT device that you know there's going to be 4 million of them sold online, they're going to go for those. And like I said, these devices are low-power, built to a budget. You can get them into your hands and like SaaS service online. So people can take them apart, they can have a look at the code inside of them. They can have a look at the operating system. So it's quite easy to find vulnerabilities on these IOT devices. >> Lauren: Oh yeah. >> So that is definitely a growing area. Also the level for harm on those kind of vulnerabilities, if we are talking about Internet-connected healthcare, Internet-connected hospital equipment, you know, control valves for factories that may or may not be dealing with certain kind of materials. That is definitely a focus both from a security industry perspective, and also kind of where we are seeing hackers targeting. >> That's great. So tell me a little bit about what else you're working on right now. I think, I always find it interesting to hear from you what you're kind of hacking with and-- >> Yeah, sure. So that's my, that's my kind of security hobby-cum-part time role I guess within DevNet. >> Lauren: Love it. >> I quite like that kind of hands-on security evangelism. A lot of other stuff I'm doing is all around kind of open source and micro services and containers. So we're doing lots of work internally with Kubernetes Right now. Proof of concepting, some new user space networking code. >> Lauren: Oh great. >> Which would allow basically the network your traffic takes from your application in the container, write out to the network card, to be a user space app. So, you know, you're not stuck with the networking that a cloud provider gives you. If you want to test your application fully like packet to app back to the wire, and know that that network is also going to go with you when you deploy anywhere, we're going to be able to do that. >> That's fabulous. >> And there's also some real performance benefits to kind of not going in and out of the Linux kernel, so we can kind of saturate 40 gigabits a second from a container, straight down to the wire on kind of commodity compute like UCS what like any x86 service. So really excited about that. It's in development at the moment. That's all open source. >> Lauren: It will be all open source. >> It's all open source already under the FD.io project, FD dot io. >> Oh. >> The integration into Kubernetes is ongoing. And obviously will be open sourced as it gets developed. But that's super exciting. Also just the whole Merakifi, Merakification if I can say that. This idea of turning on-prem devices into kind of black box, you know, cloud managed, cloud updated. You have an IT team. They're just remote and kind of paid for in a SaaS model rather than having to manage and patch those devices on-prem. >> Lauren: Oh yeah. >> You know, we currently do that with switches and routers and cameras as I'm sure you know that the Meraki product portfolio, I don't see why we don't do that with on-prem compute. Why don't we do that with on-prem, you know, Kubernetes clusters. Why should a Kubernetes cluster, just because it sat in your data center, be any different in terms of usability, billing, management, than the one you get from Google Cloud platform or Azure or AWS? It should have the same user experience. So across those two areas, yeah, that's where I'm spending most of my time at the moment. >> Great, well, we're kind of wrapping up here. Tell me, what is the most exciting thing for you that's coming down the path in the next six months or so? >> Um. >> Can you tell us? >> I cannot tell you the most exciting thing, I'm afraid. It has to do with everything I'm talking about, kind of the networking, the as a service, super excited about user space networking. We have customers that looking to do kind of real-time video pipelines for a broadcast in containers. And being able to do that on-prem or in cloud or wherever, and this FD.io VPP technology, I think will really unlock that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> So real use cases, and yeah, super excited. >> Great. Matt, thank you so much for coming on today. >> It's been pleasure. >> Yeah, my pleasure as well. This is Lauren Clooney and we'll be right back from the show here at Cisco DevNet Create. (jingle)

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain It's theCUBE Covering Cisco Live 2018 Brought to you by Cisco Veeam, and theCUBE's Ecosystem partner's. >> John: Hello everyone and welcome to a special CUBE presentation here in Barcelona, Spain, we're live at Cisco Live! In Europe, I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stuart Miniman, Head Analyst for Networking and for Wikibon. Stu we're kicking off Cisco Live in Barcelona It's a European show to the main North America show in the US. But really kicking of 2018 for Cisco and some stark changes to Cisco's positioning. Really, they've always been innovative, but you're startin' to see what they're thinking, in terms of cloud, multi-cloud, IOT, and the role of the network and the networking industry, two different things. Again, we're going to break that down. Day one of two days of wall-to-wall coverage. Again, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, Stu, I got to get your take, yesterday was kind of a set-up day, everyone's kind of coming in for these conferences. Big story was the Connected Women's Conference with DevNet and across Cisco. Great turnout, great energy. And then today the keynote, with Rowan who's up on stage for Chuck Robbins who did not make the trip. Really kind of laying out the vision for Cisco. Your take so far on Cisco, DevNet, the Women's Conference, and the Keynote. >> Stu: Yeah, so John, first of all, I know we're excited to be here. So it's the first time we've had theCUBE at one of the Cisco live events. We've done plenty of shows with Cisco, tons of Cisco people in the alumni database. It's actually the second time I've done Cisco live, but the last time was 2009. And my description in 2009 was you had network engineers that were in their wiring closets or somewhere in a dark dungeon. They kind of crawled out, got their CCIE re-certification, got a couple of free beers and t-shirts, and then kind of went back home after they did some networking. It's a very different vibe here. My question coming into this show is how much is Cisco a software company? Used to, you talk about, Chuck Robbins isn't here, but, Chuck and John Chambers before him used to, they talked about the software innovation and then they'd pull a chip out of their pocket and say we spent a billion dollars innovating on this chip. Now, what was nice here, in the the keynote this morning there was a lot of talk about the future. Software is a piece of it. Intent based, content managing the pieces. Meraki getting up talking about wireless. It's not about boxes, ports, cabling. It is about software, but Cisco's going through their transition, John, how do they go from kind of the quarterly sales targets of working with their traditional partners to this multi-cloud software world. Intent, absolutely a big piece of it. Cisco's got such a broad portfolio, John So much to get into in the next couple of days. >> John: And good points too about the software role and then Cisco's always been moving up the stack if you've been following theCUBE, you know we've been talking about this if you look at the old guard companies, Cisco falls in that category. Okay, the new guard companies, Amazon Cloud, and some new start-ups, they're playing with Cloud economics. They're playing with a whole new generation of software developers. Gone are the days of Waterfall, hello Agile, Agile programming and development. But Stu, the big contrast now with Cloud is the perimeter does not exist. This opens up security, which the number one thing on the keynote that Rowan brought up, as well as the main speakers, this is huge, because now there's no perimeter. Classic networking days are changed. Cisco's always been talking internally about moving up the stack, they're finally doing it. They're doing it fast. And they have to because they're under siege. >> Stu: Yeah, John, dig into that a little bit, I mean, you think back, Cisco was one of the four horsemen of the internet era. It was Sun, Oracle, Cisco, and I'm tryin' to remember who the fourth one was. But, I think Intel was there. So Cisco's been there. Security, always been part of the Cisco portfolio. Front and center, any customer I've talked to, I loved, there was a stat up there that 71% of customers said that security might be impacting innovation for customers. And I joked, I said well 29% are living in hermetically sealed underground bunker if they aren't worried about how security's going to impact what they're doing. Maybe they feel that they've solved it and they're not slowing down because of it but absolutely security front and center, a lot going on in the space. IOT, I have to be honest, Cisco's been talking about IOT for many years and I felt like they kind of for years it was like well there's going to be trillions of devices and we're going to network them. And I kind of said, okay, that's nice, but really how are you solving the business problem, how are you helping me and really that's where kind of the update as to where they're going, where's Cisco positioned to where they have the assets. They made a number of acquisitions in this space, everything from the SD-WAN vIPtela's company we followed pretty closely for a number of years as well as, AppDynamics, we interviewed them at Amazon reinvent, over a billion dollars for that acquisition, really a software company, doesn't mesh with the traditional Cisco model, so a lot of changes goin' on. Cisco positioned for a lot of those pieces but definitely a lot of challenges as well as opportunities for them. >> John: Stu, you mentioned IOT, one of the things that people, if you follow the industry, know if you're a historian, like us, they got it right Stu, their vision of internet, of everything was absolutely spot on, just 10 years too early. They had that awesome campaign, it was more window dressing and vision, but it actually was panning out. If you look at what they were talking about 10 years ago about connecting devices, they pretty much nailed it. However they missed a lot of things. So they didn't whoop the stack fast enough, in my opinion. And two, the Cloud came on really really fast. But now, they're already seeing that as an opportunity But it's a double-edged sword like I said on my tweet during the keynote. They could make a lot of money with the Cloud by doing multi-cloud, but it's a double-edged sword if they misfire, Stu, this could be a problem. So let's talk about that. What does Cisco need to do, in multi-cloud, to really be that TCPIP moment. Because you got all kinds of new dynamics with networking. You got end-to-end, but now you have a surface area including IOT that's everywhere, smart cities, sensors, on-premises, and in the Cloud. All over the place, so this is a huge, complex equation but Cisco's not new complexity, your thoughts. >> Stu: Yeah, first of all John, nice job on premises, we got it right. >> John: (laughs) On prem is the shortcut that I always use, Stu. >> Stu: Absolutely, still talking about data centers, talking about edge computing, talking about those, but Cisco like many of the, hate to say legacy companies, had a little bit of falter when we talked about public cloud. The whole inter-cloud message really was a little bit complicated. We talked some really smart Cisco DE's and got to really understand a little bit, but at the end of the day Cisco really understands they have a huge piece of their ecosystem as the service providers and that's who they're working with. Cisco is not selling to Amazon. Amazon buys from some of Cisco's competitors. But they're not selling to a couple of the biggest hyper-scalers out there and that is a risk for Cisco but huge ecosystem, thousands of service providers, that's who Cisco needs to partner with, that was part of the inter-cloud message and that's been rebooted with how they're doing it. They really look at - in Rowan's keynote this morning it was about the management interface. Cisco's always made lots of pieces, but the challenge is is I've got lots of device managers and how do I get multi-cloud. I'm using Amazon, I'm using Azure, I'm using Google, I've got my own data center. IBM, Oracle, Cisco partners with lots of these companies, how are they going to make it easy and why do they have the right to be in the center of a lot of those discussions. >> John: They partner yes, but I would argue that if I'm going to be critical of Cisco, they got to partner smart in a smart way. So the kind of partnerships that they need to do now is really joint engineering partnerships because if you look at the big whales right now, it's Amazon, Microsoft, and Google. The rest are all either customers, like the Facebook and those guys. But the real Cloud that they really need to go after and don't forget Alibaba and all the Chinese and European Clouds as well, with GDPR, a lot of complexity there as well they got to do partnering at a deeper level. So the new Intel Inside model is over. This now Cloud Inside with Cisco, they got to think differently. This is not an alliance with them as a channel partner or them in charge, they have to come in and understand that they have to peer with these clouds. I mean Google's at such a large scale, I met with them last week their site reliability engineering team is freaking phenomenal. They got chops, they know networking, they got to push Cisco hard. Your thoughts. >> Stu: Look Google, when Google Cloud launched, I said Google has the best network in the world. Stop. Bar none. Absolutely. Their SRE's setting the bar for how people look at these environments. I didn't hear much public cloud discussion. Cisco I'm worrying is a little bit over-rotating towards that IOT and Edge piece. Edge does not get rid of Cloud. Amazon's not goin' away at all. >> John: Cloud and Edge go together. >> Stu: Google, Amazon, Microsoft, you think they understand The Edge and what that's going to take there all of them have a play with devices even Microsoft's phone might have failed, but absolutely they've got applications and they know what's happening at The Edge. Google, come on, who created android. >> John: (laughs) >> Stu: They understand how to get there. Amazon's got Alexa all over the place, Google of course has their smart devices So John, didn't hear anything about voice in the discussion here. They talked about things like telepathy, which was struck me as a little bit interesting. Google has communications, they've got WebEx as a platform. They've got Spark on the phone to be able to communicate. They've got a lot of unified communications. Collaboration, I mean John, I know one of your top contenders, not just the networking of devices but the networking of people and Cisco looks a lot at that. Any take you want to have on that piece of it? >> John: Yeah, I mean, here's my take I love this intent networking concept with context I think they're spot on on that. I think Cisco really needs to add attention and reputation because as you have promiscuous devices out there from IOT to wearables, to automotive, you're going to have trust issues around the network nodes, now that these network nodes are going to have different personas if you will. So if you look at that, I think they really need to add attention and reputation to what to pay attention to in real time and the reputation of say a device or node on the network. That has to be added on top of intent because intent is just contextual and they've addressed that. So to me, that's the holy grail for Cisco. They got to build these new stacks with these new software variables so they can scale both in real time and kind of in typical network way which is normal for them, but real time's where it's at low latency, wire speed, this is the language we understand, but bring it to the cars, bring it to those devices, they got to nail that. So Stu, they have to think differently and I think the re-imagining of Cisco, the vision is about looking forward, Rowan's speech today was awesome on that front. He took us to 2015. >> Stu: 2050. >> John: 2050 I mean, Phenomenal. That is what Cisco needs to do. Show their customers that they're not just a gear company. They can't be gear company anymore. They got to move to the software model, and they got to have proof points. They got to look at apps that they don't want anymore and either get rid of them or double down. It would be interesting to see that Stu, what they will double down on. Is it Spark, I mean, I download the Spark app, I have no friends. Is it a social network or is it a collaboration tool like Alibaba Talk, it's not WeChat. I's not Facebook or Twitter. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: Applications, Stu, they're kind of looking at The Edge, they have to have a position there, your thoughts. >> Stu: Yeah, so John, I think you're right, I was happy not to see a bunch of boxes up on stage talking about that. Now, not to get me wrong, we're going to be talking about a lot of the networking technologies, were is the - intent-based networking lives on the portfolio Cisco products, there is what they're doing with the service providers what they're doing in the campus environment and from a wireless standpoint Meraki obviously center to what they're doing there. They have - UCS has been the workhouse, really, Cisco in the virtualization age, they felt that they missed out on buying Vmware, but UCS really took the virtualization age and drove them into a market that everybody didn't think that they could get into. Kind of expanded the town, but UCS is kind of plateaued out from a revenue standpoint, and where can they go in the future. You don't see - UCS is built for kind of big workloads when we hear Dell and HP talking about how did they take compute to the edge, haven't heard Cisco saying oh, their architecture wasn't built for kind of those small low-cost, low-margin pieces, so where will they add value and get revenue there, I think hardware gets deprecated over time and it really is software. Where are they going to get that move, first of all they made a number of big acquisitions, but John, we haven't talked about, they've got somewhere between 50 and 60 billion dollars that's going to be repatriated back to the United States this year and that can make them even more aquisitive than usual. >> John: Yeah, they're going to have to definitely take that money from overseas, bring it in like Apple did and then go on a spending spree, but Stu, let's kind of wrap the segment up on the kick-off talk about kind of where they should go and to me the big story out of Cisco and following these guys over the past decade or so you've seen them foundationally rock solid on networking no doubt about it and even UCS, you're kind of critical, but also they've done a good job there. They have the foundational footprint and you're starting to see them move the stack and I think the big story to me is what DevNet's doing going into their network engineering community and turning those guys into modern Cloud native developers, to me, that is critical to Cisco. It's an investment. Is it going to be long on the tooth? Will it be real? To me it looks real. DevNet can transform and create an innovation surge Cisco needs that innovation to come from their own community. They need it to come from new developers while keeping their existing. Because that's going to be ultimately what's going to be built on top of the Cisco foundation, that is the network and to me, I don't think they need to be making a lot of moves right now. I think let the developers be creative with innovation use the cash to buy companies and let those flowers bloom To me that's the model. If they try to do the old internet days where they would just integrate companies in there's not a lot of companies out there they can just plug into their model right now. >> Stu: Yeah definitely John and we've been tracking for years a lot of the software pieces that Cisco's been working in. They've been big supporters of us at OpenStack, in Docker, The Container World, at the Cooper and Eddie Show So Cisco absolutely beating the drum towards that software, it just takes a little while for the big tanker ship that is dominant player in networking to move from relying on that hardware there's that big iron. It's not like they can just flip a switch and say hey, we're software and our margins and our sales are all going to be different. UCS, great, but it kind of reached a high-water mark and where does that transition and move forward to and as you said, partnerships are going to be key and not just lip service but true engineering where are they going to develop where are they going to find there - and DevNet great buzz already. The labs here have been just crankin' non-stop since I showed up. Lots of people diggin' in and not just the old certifications, it's really builders, John is something that you hear the Amazon community talk a lot about definitely the DevNet group. >> John: And the community's technical too, so they love to get their teeth on these demos. This Black Hat demos, there's White Hat demos for security always good. I want to give a shout-out to the connected women's group at Cisco, I attended their session they had yesterday it was kind of a get-together. Very inspiring and as a man, inclusion is very key and Cisco actually, Stu, is doing something really I noticed, they've swapped diversity and inclusion and they call it inclusion and diversity and they recognize that the conversations need to include everyone, then the diversity is just going to be addressed. So shout-out to the women's connected network here at Cisco for that great event and got to great group of people. Also want to shout-out to our sponsors that allow us to come to Europe to get all the top stories here at Cisco Live. That's the Cisco team here on the partner group and of DevNet, thank you to those guys at Cisco. So check 'em out. Veeam, IBM, and NetApp thanks for your support, allowed two days of wall-to-wall coverage here in Barcelona, live with theCUBE We'll be back with more coverage and interviews after this short break. (techno music)