>> Narrator: From Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Qualys Security Conference 2019. Brought to you by Qualys. >> Hey, welcome back, you ready with Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are at the Qualys Security Conference in Las Vegas. This show's been going on, I think, 19 years. This is our first time here. We're excited to be here, and we've got, there's always these people that go between the vendor and the customer and back and forth. We've had it go one way, now we've got somebody who was at Qualys and now is out implementing the technology. We're excited to welcome Grant Johnson. He is the director of Risk and Compliance for Ancestry. Grant, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me, great to be here. >> Yeah, it is always interesting to me and there's always a lot of people at these shows that go back and forth between, and their creating the technology and delivering the technology versus implementing the technology and executing at the customer side. So, you saw an opportunity at Ancestry, what opportunity did you see and why did you make that move? >> Well it's a good question, I was really happy where I was at, I worked for here at Qualys for a long time. But, I had a good colleague of mine from way back just say, hey look, he took over as the chief information security officer at Ancestry and said, "they've got an opportunity here, do you want it?" I said, "hey sure." I mean, it was really kind of a green field. It was the ability to get in on the ground floor, designing the processes, the environment, the people and everything to, what I saw is really a really cool opportunity, they were moving to the cloud. Complete cloud infrastructure which was a few years ago, you know, a little uncommon so it was just and opportunity to learn a lot of different things and kind of be thinking through some different processes and the way to fix it. >> Right, right, so you've been there for a little while now. Over three years, what was the current state and then what was the opportunity to really make some of those changes, as kind of this new initiative with this new see, so? >> No, yeah, we were traditional. You know, a server data center kind of background and everything like that. But with the way the company was starting to go as we were growing it, really just crazy, just at a crazy clip, to where we really couldn't sustain. We wanted to go global, we wanted to move Ancertry out to Europe and to other environments and just see the growth that was going to happen there, and there just wasn't a way that we could do it with the traditional data center model. We're plugging those in all over the place, so the ideas is, we're going to go to a cloud and with going to the cloud, we could really rethink the way that we do security and vulnerability management, and as we went from a more traditional bottle which is, where you scan and tell people to patch and do things like that, to where we can try to start to bake vulnerability management into the process and do a lot of different things. And you know, we've done some pretty cool things that way, I think as a company and, always evolving, always trying to be better and better every day but it was a lot of fun and it's been really kind of a neat ride. >> So, was there a lot of app redesign and a whole bunch of your core infrastructure. Not boxes, but really kind of software infrastructure that had to be redone around a cloud focus so you can scale? >> Yeah. There absolutely was. We really couldn't lift and shift. We really had to take, because we were taking advantage of the cloud environment, if we just lifted and shifted our old infrastructure in there, it wasn't going to take advantage of that cloud expansion like we needed it to. >> Right. >> We needed it to be able to handle it tide, of high tide, low tide, versus those traffic times when we're high and low. So it really took a rewrite. And it was a lot of really neat people coming together. We basically, at the onset of this right when I started in 2016, our chief technology officer got up and said, "we're going to burn the ships." We have not signed the contract for our data center to renew at 18 months. So we have to go to the cloud. And it was really neat to see hundreds of people really come together and really make that happen. I've been involved in the corporate world for a long time in IT. And a lot of those projects fail. And it was really neat to see a big project like that actually get off the ground. >> Right, right. It's funny, the burning the ship analogy is always an interesting one. (grant laughs) Which you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger never had a plan B. (grant laughs) Because if you have plan B, you're going to fall back. So just commit and go forward. >> A lot of truth to that. Right, you're flying without a net, whatever kind of metaphor you want to use on that one. Yeah, but you have to succeed and there is a lot that'll get it done I think, if you just don't have that plan B like you said. >> Right, so talk about kind of where Ancestry now is in terms of being able to roll out apps quicker, in terms of being able to scale much larger, in terms of being able to take advantages of a lot more attack surface area, which probably in the old model was probably not good. Now those are actually new touch points for customers. >> It's a brave new world on a lot of aspects. I mean, to the first part of that, we're just a few days away from cyber Monday. Which is you know, our normal rate clip of transactions is about 10 to 12 transactions a second. >> So still a bump, is cyber Monday still a bump? >> It's still huge for us. >> We have internet at home now. We don't have to go to work to get on the internet to shop. >> You know, crazy enough, it still is. You know, over the course of the week, and kind of starting on Thanksgiving, we scale to have about 250 transactions a second. So that was one of the good parts of the cloud, do you invest and the big iron and in the big piping for your peak times of the year. Or and it sits, your 7-10% utilization during the rest of the year, but you can handle those peaks well. So I mean, we're just getting into the time of year, so that's where our cloud expansion, where a lot of the value for that has come. In terms, of attack surface, yeah, absolutely. Five years ago, I didn't even know what a container was. And we're taking advantage a lot of that technology to be able to move nimbly. You can't spin up a server fast enough to meet the demands of user online clicking things. You really have to go with containers and that also increases what you really need to be able to secure with people and the process and technology and everything like that. >> Right. >> So it's been a challenge. It's been really revitalizing and really, really neat to me to get in there and learn some new things and new stuff like that. >> That's great. So I want to ask you. It may be a little sensitive, not too sensitive but kind of sensitive right. Is with 23 and Me and Ancestry, and DNA registries, et cetera, it's opened up this whole new conversation around cold case and privacy and blah blah blah. I don't want to get into that. That's a whole different conversation, but in terms of your world and in terms of risking compliance, that's a whole different type of a data set I think that probably existed in the early days of Ancestry.com >> Yeah >> Where you're just trying to put your family tree together. So, how does that increased value, increased sensitivity, increased potential opportunity for problems impact the way that you do your job and the way that you structure your compliance systems? >> Boy. Honestly, that is part of the reason why I joined the company. Is that I really kind of saw this opportunity. Kind of be a part of really a new technology that's coming online. I'd have to say. >> Or is it no different than everyone else's personal information and those types of things? Maybe it's just higher profile in the news today. >> Not it all, no. It kind of inherent within our company. We realized that our ability to grow and stay affable or just alive as a business, we pivot on security. And security for us and privacy is at the fore front. And I think one of the key changes that's done for maybe in other companies that I get is, people from our development teams, to our operations teams, to our security department, to our executives. We don't have to sell security to em. They really get it. It's our customer privacy and their data that we're asking people to share their most personal data with us. We can give you a new credit card. Or, you can get a new credit card number issued. We can't give you a new DNA sequence. >> Right. >> So once that's out there, it's out there and it is the utmost to us. And like I said, we don't have to sell security internally, and with that we've gotten a lot of support internally to be able to implement the kind of things that we needed to implement to keep that data as secure as we can. >> Right, well that's nice to hear and probably really nice for you to be able to execute your job that you don't have to sell securities. It is important, important stuff. >> Grant: Yes, that's absolutely true. >> All right, good. So we are jamming through digital transformation. If we talk a year from now, what's on your plate for the next year? >> We just continue to evolve. We're trying to still continue the build in some of those processes that make us better, stronger, faster, as we go through, to respond to threats. And just really kind of handle the global expansion that our company's undergoing right now. Just want to keep the lights on and make sure that nobody even thinks about security when they can do this. I can't speak for them, but I think we really want to lead the world in terms of privacy and customer trust and things like that. So there are a lot of things that I think we've got coming up that we really want to kind of lead the way on. >> Good, good. I think that is a great objective and I think you guys are in a good position to be the shining light to be, kind of guiding in that direction 'cause it's important stuff, really important stuff. >> Yeah, we hope so, we really do. >> Well Grant, nothing but the best to you. Good luck and keep all that stuff locked down. >> Thank you, thank you so much! Thanks for having me. >> He's Grant, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCube. We're at the Qualys Security Conference at the Bellagio in La Vegas. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(lively music) >> To the world. Over 31 million people have viewed theCUBE and that is the result of great content, great conversations and I'm so proud to be part of theCUBE, of a great team. Hi, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching theCUBE. For more information, click here. >> Narrator: Live from Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Chief Data Officer Strategy Summit Spring 2017. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here at theCUBE. It is lunchtime at the IBM CDO Summit. Packed house, you can see them back there getting their nutrition. But we're going to give you some mental nutrition. We're excited to be joined by a repeat performance of Cortnie Abercrombie. Coming on back with Vijay Vijayasankar. He's the GM Cognitive, IOT, and Analytics for IBM, welcome. >> Thanks for having me. >> So first off, did you eat before you came on? >> I did thank you. >> I want to make sure you don't pass out or anything. (group laughing) Cortnie and I both managed to grab a quick bite. >> Excellent. So let's jump into it. Cognitive, lot of buzz, IoT, lot of buzz. How do they fit? Where do they mesh? Why is it, why are they so important to one another? >> Excellent question. >> IoT has been around for a long time even though we never called it IoT. My favorite example is smart meters that utility companies use. So these things have been here for more than a decade. And if you think about IoT, there are two aspects to it. There's the instrumentation by putting the sensors in and getting the data. And the insides aspect where there's making sense of what the sensor is trying to tell us. Combining these two, is where the value is for the client. Just by putting outwardly sensors, it doesn't make much sense. So, look at the world around us now, right? The traditional utility, I will stick with the utilities to complete the story. Utilities all get dissected from both sides. On one hand you have your electric vehicles plugging into the grid to draw power. On the other hand, you have supply coming from solar roofs and so on. So optimizing this is where the cognitive and analytics kicks in. So that's the beauty of this world. All these things come together, that convergence is where the big value is. >> Right because the third element that you didn't have in your original one was what's going on, what should we do, and then actually doing something. >> Vijay: Exactly. >> You got to have the action to pull it all together. >> Yes, and learning as we go. The one thing that is available today with cognitive systems that we did not have in the past was this ability to learn as you go. So you don't need human intervention to keep changing the optimization algorithms. These things can learn by itself and improve over time which is huge. >> But do you still need a person to help kind of figure out what you're optimizing for? That's where, can you have a pure, machine-driven algorithm without knowing exactly what are you optimizing for? >> We are no where close to that today. Generally, where the system is super smart by itself is a far away concept. But there are lots of aspects of specific AI optimizing a given process that can still go into this unsupervised learning aspects. But it needs boundaries. The system can get smart within boundaries, the system cannot just replace human thought. Just augmenting our intelligence. >> Jeff: Cortnie, you're shaking you head over there. >> I'm completely in agreement. We are no where near, and my husband's actually looking forward to the robotic apocalypse by the way, so. (group laughing) >> He must be an Arnold Schwarzenegger fan. >> He's the opposite of me. I love people, he's like looking forward to that. He's like, the less people, the better. >> Jeff: He must have his Zoomba, or whatever those little vacuum cleaner things are called. >> Yeah, no. (group laughing) >> Peter: Tell him it's the fewer the people, the better. >> The fewer the people the better for him. He's a finance guy, he'd rather just sit with the money all day. What does that say about me? Anyway, (laughing) no, less with the gross. Yeah no, I think we're never going to really get to that point. Because we always as people always have to be training these systems to think like us. So we're never going to have systems that are just autonomically out there without having an intervention here and there to learn the next steps. That's just how it works. >> I always thought the autonomous vehicle, just example, cause it's just so clean. You know, if somebody jumps in front of the car, does the car hit the person, or run into the ditch? >> Where today a person can't make that judgment very fast. They're just going to react. But in computer time, that's like forever. So you can actually make rules. And then people go bananas, well what if it's a grandma on one side and kids on the other? Which do you go? Or what if it's a criminal that just robbed a bank? Do you take him out on purpose? >> Trade off. >> So, you get into a lot of, interesting parameters that have nothing to do necessarily with the mechanics of making that decision. >> And this changes the fundamentals of computing big time too, right? Because a car cannot wait to ping the Cloud to find out, you know, should I break, or should I just run over this person in front of me. So it needs to make that determination right away. And hopefully the right decision which is to break. But on the other hand, all the cars that have this algorithm, together have collective learning, which needs some kind of Cloud computing. So this whole idea of Edge computing will come and replace a lot of what exists today. So see this disruption even behind the scenes on how we architect these systems, it's a fascinating time. >> And then how much of the compute, the store is at the Edge? How much of the computed to store in the Cloud and then depending on the decision, how do you say it, can you do it locally or do you have to send it upstream or break it in pieces. >> I mean if you look at a car of the future, forget car of the future, car of the present like Tesla, that has more compute power than a small data center, at multiple CPU's, lots of RAM, a lot of hard disk. It's a little Cloud that runs on wheels. >> Well it's a little data center that runs on wheels. But, let me ask you a question. And here's the question, we talk about systems that learn, cognitive systems that are constantly learning, and we're training them. How do we ensure that Watson, for example is constantly operating in the interest of the customer, and not the interest of IBM? Now there's a reason I'm asking this question, because at some point in time, I can perceive some other company offering up a similar set of services. I can see those services competing for attention. As we move forward with increasingly complex decisions, with increasingly complex sources of information, what does that say about how these systems are going to interact with each other? >> He always with the loaded questions today. (group laughing) >> It's an excellent question, it's something that I worry about all the time as well. >> Something we worry about with our clients too. >> So, couple of approaches by which this will exist. And to begin with, while we have the big lead in cognitive computing now, there is no hesitation on my part to admit that the ecosystem around us is also fast developing and there will be hefty competition going forward, which is a good thing. 'Cause if you look at how this world is developing, it is developing as API. APIs will fight on their own merits. So it's a very pluggable architecture. If my API is not very good, then it will get replaced by somebody else's API. So that's one aspect. The second aspect is, there is a difference between the provider and the client in terms of who owns the data. We strongly believe from IBM that client owns the data. So we will not go in and do anything crazy with it. We won't even touch it. So we will provide a framework and a cartridge that is very industry specific. Like for example, if Watson has to act as a call center agent for a Telco, we will provide a set of instructions that are applicable to Telco. But, all the learning that Watson does is on top of that clients data. We are not going to take it from one Telco and put it in another Telco. That will stay very local to that Telco. And hopefully that is the way the rest of the industry develops too. That they don't take information from one and provide to another. Even on an anonymous basis, it's a really bad idea to take a clients data and then feed it elsewhere. It has all kinds of ethical and moral consequences, even if it's legal. >> Absolutely. >> And we would encourage clients to take a look at some of the others out there and make sure that that's the arrangement that they have. >> Absolutely, what a great job for an analyst firm, right? But I want to build upon this point, because I heard something very interesting in the keynote, the CDO of IBM, in the keynote this morning. >> He used a term that I've thought about, but never heard before, trust as a service. Are you guys familiar with his use of that term? >> Vijay: Yep. >> Okay, what does trust as a service mean, and how does it play out so that as a consumer of IMB cognitive services, I have a measurable difference in how I trust IBM's cognitive services versus somebody else? >> Some would call that Blockchain. In fact Blockchain has often been called trust as a service. >> Okay, and Blockchain is probably the most physical form of it that we can find at the moment, right? At the (mumbles) where it's open to everybody but then no one brand section can be tabbed by somebody else. But if we extend that concept philosophically, it also includes a lot of the concept about identity. Identity. I as a user today don't have an easy way to identify myself across systems. Like, if I'm behind the firewall I have one identity, if I am outside the firewall I have another identity. But, if you look at the world tomorrow where I have to deal with a zillion APIs, this concept of a consistent identity needs to pass through all of them. It's a very complicated a difficult concept to implement. So that trust as a service, essentially, the light blocking that needs to be an identity service that follows me around that is not restrictive to an IBM system, or a Nautical system or something. >> But at the end of the day, Blockchain's a mechanism. >> Yes. >> Trust in the service sounds like a-- >> It's a transparency is what it is, the more transparency, the more trust. >> It's a way of doing business. >> Yes. >> Sure. >> So is IBM going to be a leader in defining what that means? >> Well look, in all cases, IBM has, we have always strove, what's the right word? Striven, strove, whatever it. >> Strove. >> Strove (laughing)? >> I'll take that anyway. >> Strove, thank you. To be a leader in how we approach everything ethically. I mean, this is truly in our blood, I mean, we are here for our clients. And we aren't trying to just get them to give us all of their data and then go off and use it anywhere. You have to pay attention sometimes, that what you're paying for is exactly what you're getting, because people will try to do those things, and you just need to have a partner that you trust in this. And, I know it's self-serving to say, but we think about data ethics, we think about these things when we talk to our clients, and that's one of the things that we try to bring to the table is that moral, ethical, should you. Just because you can, and we have, just so you know walked away from deals that were very lucrative before, because we didn't feel it was the right thing to do. And we will always, I mean, I know it sounds self-serving, I don't know how to, you won't know until you deal with us, but pay attention, buyer beware. >> You're just Cortnie from IBM, we know what side you're on. (group laughing) It's not a mystery. >> Believe me, if I'm associated with it, it's yeah. >> But you know, it's a great point, because the other kind of ethical thing that comes up a lot with data, is do you have the ethical conversation before you collect that data, and how you're going to be using it. >> Exactly. >> But that's just today. You don't necessarily know what's going to, what and how that might be used tomorrow. >> Well, in other countries. >> That's what gets really tricky. >> Future-proofing is a very interesting concept. For example, vast majority of our analytics conversation today is around structure and security, those kinds of terms. But, where is the vast majority of data sitting today? It is in video and sound files, which okay. >> Cortnie: That's even more scary. >> It is significantly scary because the technology to get insights out of this is still developing. So all these things like cluster and identity and security and so on, and quantum computing for that matter. All these things need to think about the future. But some arbitrary form of data can come hit you and all these principles of ethics and legality and all should apply. It's a very non-trivial challenge. >> But I do see that some countries are starting to develop their own protections like the General Data Protection Regulation is going to be a huge driver of forced ethics. >> And some countries are not. >> And some countries are not. I mean, it's just like, cognitive is just like anything else. When the car was developed, I'm sure people said, hey everybody's going to go out killing people with their cars now, you know? But it's the same thing, you can use it as a mode of transportation, or you can do something evil with it. It really is going to be governed by the societal norms that you live in, as to how much you're going to get away with. And transparency is our friend, so the more transparent we can be, things like Blockchain, other enablers like that that allow you to see what's going on, and have multiple copies, the better. >> All right, well Cortnie, Vijay, great topics. And that's why gatherings like this are so important to be with your peer group, you know, to talk about these much deeper issues that are really kind of tangental to technology but really to the bigger picture. So, keep getting out on the fringe to help us figure this stuff out. >> I appreciate it, thanks for having us. >> Thanks. >> Pleasure. All right, I'm Jeff Frick with Peter Burris. We're at the Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco at the IBM Chief Data Officer Strategy Summit 2017. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music) (dramatic music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from the Mission Bay Conference Center in San Francisco, California, it's theCUBE at Google Cloud Platform Live. Here are your hosts, John Furrier and Jeff Frick. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are live. This is theCUBE in San Francisco, California for Google Platform Conference Live, their developer conference for the cloud. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE, Jeff Frick, my cohost, and we're excited to have CUBE alumni but also man about town coming to talk about containers, Kubernetes. We have Craig McLuckie, product manager at Google. Named the product Kubernetes. Welcome back. >> Thank you. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> As I said, you're the man about town. Containers are the hottest thing going on. Really enabling a lot of new change. A lot of solidarity in the developer community around bringing cloud together, right? You're seeing people go, wow, containers are not a new concept. Docker has brought together the concept and made a huge push, just the ball got moved down the field big time. And then Kubernetes kind of tying it all together and you guys are open sourcing it. I wanted to first talk about, from your perspective, what's changed since VMware where we had a great conversation around Kubernetes? Obviously that was front and center in VMware's show, which is a huge IT enterprise vote of confidence. So now, here at Google, core developers. Large scale, backend network interconnect stuff going on. You almost connect the dots, right? Native developers really cranking out the apps? Large scale interconnect? There's a lot in the middle there between those bookends. What's changed? >> So a couple things I think have changed since I last spoke to theCUBE at VMworld. The first is we've seen an amazing amount of velocity around the Kubernetes community. Not just what Google's been doing but also what our open source community members have been contributing. And we're seeing a very fast acceleration of the overall platform. Moving quickly towards operation maturity, you know getting closer to production readiness and introducing a lot of features that are really need to both run real world applications and to go to new place, to go to a variety of new clouds. We're seeing the reality of a very highly portable and maturing way to build container based applications emerging. That's been very exciting. I think the other thing that's really interesting here is the way that we at Google have been introducing Kubernetes directly into the Google Cloud platform. Today we announced a new product called Google Container Engine which provides the quickest and easiest way to get a Kubernetes cluster up and running and managed for you on Google Cloud platform. And we're very excited about how easy it's making it for our customers to access this new way of building applications. >> Talk about this Container Engine because obviously App Engine's had huge success. Little bit of learning curve but you guys have some core front end developers that you're making that easier now but what is a Container Engine? Is it a Docker engine? Is it Docker compatible? Is it a whole new animal? What it is? What is it? >> That's great, I'm glad you asked that question. I would start by saying this, at Google we have Google Compute Engine which offers powerful, flexible, fast breeding VMs and at the other end of the spectrum we've had App Engine which offers a highly managed, very efficient way to get web applications up and running. And what we've encountered with our customers is that there is no natural way to move from one world to the other world. There's no connective tissue that exists in the middle that let's our customers think about building applications that are running on a cloud computer rather than just running on a virtual machine. And so what Google Container Engine is is a technology that let's our customers program at the cluster level. So Docker has provided this amazingly productive way to package up an application and deploy it into a node. Docker has done a great job of taking a lot of technologies that existed and making them incredibly accessible to developers. But the reality, in our experience, is that at least 80% of our customer's cost of maintaining applications comes out of the operation space so Kubernetes and Google Container Engine are an operationally viable way to build these distributed applications. It really moves our customers from thinking about deploying things into individual virtual machines to instead saying, hey, I'm just going to drop this into this cluster and it will all be wired together so I can take these little Lego building blocks I've got called containers, piece them together in ways that are intuitive and then have a very smart and effective system to run those for me on my behalf.. >> So basically a pool of VMs could be available to developer, if I get this right? So you're saying, I'm a developer, I don't have to worry about the dependencies by VMware, by VMware versus another form factor? I just let the container deal with that? Is that-- >> What we've done, yes, that's exactly right, we've created this strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. Docker has created a portable framework to take basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability. But that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere so the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat Open Stack deployment, you could run on another major cloud provider like Rack Space or IBM and you could just build this application and deploy it there and experience this very powerful cluster first way of building and managing that app. >> Cluster first, I haven't heard that one. >> It's not a cluster you-know-what, it's a cluster first. (laughing) That trumps cloud first from Microsoft but let's go back to Kubernetes. You named the product, what does it mean? I mean it's kind of a, you don't look at a tech name, you say, it's not like alpha one, ya know? >> Kubernetes is the Greek word for the helmsman of a ship. I was looking to find a name and turns out, there's a lot of cluster management technologies and a lot of the obvious names were taken and so I had the inspiration of what is this doing? It's actually the thing that's overseeing the whole of your operation, and is planning what goes where and managing it. So Kubernetes is the helmsman of your cluster group, it's the thing that manages it. >> Did you design the algorithm to stay away from icebergs? (laughing) That's the key thing, you don't want to crash the system. But that's the challenge, you know, just joking aside, orchestration is really a hard thing. That's been a cloud phenomenon, automation. Everyone's been talking about, oh we have management software that automates and orchestrates cloud resources. But now in a cloud environment, it's more challenging now. Talk about what Kubernetes does different than older approaches to orchestration. >> I think is a very, very important consideration. When I look at the way that orchestration's been done traditionally, you tend to think about your application as being deeply tied to the underlying piece of infrastructure, so your orchestration process is provision me a basic machine, go get the packages I need, deploy my application pieces, wire it in explicitly to all the other pieces of my system and so you have to kind of build this relatively fragile system where all the piece are tied together and deeply coupled. What Kubernetes has done is provide a framework where you have a very principled, almost Lego building block that you can stick together and say, I want one of these things, I want it replicated six times, and I want it wired in to these other pieces without actually having to know about where those other pieces are deployed, how they relate to one another. It really is realizing this highly decoupled, very principled way of thinking about your environment as a cluster where you just drop your packages in and they're all wired together using virtualized networking and using this cluster centric paradigm and it radically, radically reduces the cost of operations. I could just give you an example of that. In the old days of Google, before we had these technologies inside the house, it was all we could do to keep the lights on. Like every day was an adventure, it was very hard, because our operations had our application pieces deeply tied into the physical infrastructure. When we introduced the system internally known as Borg, we changed the game. In less than a year-- >> Hold on, name is Borg? >> What was it called? >> Borg? >> Borg. >> Borg. >> Internally known as Borg. (laughing) >> Like connected to everything, like the Microsoft Borg, that's at Microsoft but Microsoft used to be called-- >> I was thinking more Arnold Schwarzenegger, but that's alright. >> Continue. I just wanted to make sure we heard that right. >> We literally doubled the number of production services we were running within a year. It's just so much easier to run things at scale. >> So provisioning, managing, it just makes a smoother operation? Smooth sailing if you will? >> It's really trying to hide provision, managing, right? You're basically, I have an app and I want to build it easily and then I want to deploy it easily and then I want it to be able to scale easily. >> Yes. >> Without having to go back and reconnect it to more stuff. It's funny because I think most people think that that's what clouds have already always done, right? There's basically compute, a networking and storage that's just in small units, virtually available to assemble however I want. But you say it, I used to have to still assemble it and disassemble it, now it's just-- >> Exactly. >> It's just plugging in. >> That's the challenge. The way we've seen cloud evolving has disappointed us a little bit because it really is just a re manifestation of the same existing first generation way of thinking about application development, application provisioning. If you challenge a lot of the fundamental assumptions, if you really step back and think about is there a better way to do this? If I have all this incredibly fungible resource that can turn up and turn down, is there a better way to build applications? Kubernetes is our invitation to the community to participate in defining that thing. We think it is a better way to build applications. We know it because we've been doing this for 10 years and it works really well for us. >> So talk about the open source angle because one, Kubernetes is open source, we've reported that live when we last chatted. Docker has huge success with their open source model. That's not well known in the main world, how the nuance and developers really are engaged and motivated to play with Docker which has it's own flywheel effect which is very viral in network effect. What's your strategy with Kubernetes? Is it standard open source blocking and tackling? Is there things you're doing to prime the pump? Is there a magical formula you guys are really nurturing and fostering? >> I am very happy with the way that the projects been run and it's been humbling to see the amount of adoption success we've had. I think that this manner of operating where we built Kubernetes as an open source project with the community, and then we take it and take exactly that and we turn it into a service and add a lot high value capabilities to it, is a pattern that's working very well for us. It's massively increased our velocity because it's not just us that are actually developing the project, we have amazing contributions from people like Red Hat. They're putting a lot of time and effort into making this thing great. Our friends at CoreOS are putting a lot of effort into it. We're able to do more because it's just more people working on it, so the velocity is far higher. The second thing is that we were able to go straight to an open offer. Normally we do these early adopter programs hidden behind the curtain, try to figure stuff out and do a lot of iteration. We didn't have to do that because the community has built the API with us, our customers have been working directly with us to shape the API. We know it's going to work for them. >> And that's helped you guys, so your differentiation doesn't really conflict with the community? >> Absolutely not. We recognized as we moved from a cloud that's worked mostly in the start up community and with internet facing companies to a cloud that's really engaging mainstream business. Our customers want multi cloud. It's critical to them. They want to be able to run in hybrid cloud. They want to have multi cloud provider relationships. They don't want to just rely on one provider and so our framework that works well everywhere but works especially well on Google, serves our business very well. >> Getting some great prompts on Crowd Chat so thanks for coming on theCUBE, always great to chat with you. You're in a hot area, we'd love to pick your brain but I want you to address three things I'm going to say to you, get your thoughts on. >> Okay. >> It can be your Google perspective, could be your own geeky perspective. Perimeter-less IT, multi cloud and mobile infrastructure. Three of the hottest areas on the planet right now in terms of people looking at investments, retooling, trying to figure things out, perimeter-less IT. Obviously perimeter IT, perimeter based security? >> Sure. >> Kind of goes away with the cloud right? >> Yeah. >> But you still need security, it's perimeter-less, so what does that mean? How do people understand and grasp that concept? >> I'm not sure I'm the right person to speak to perimeter less IT but I can say that-- >> Just in general. >> When I think about it, I think there's a couple of things that are happening here that are really interesting. When I look at the idea of perimeter-less IT, when I look at the idea of what I consider the democratization of IT, if you will, we've lived in a world where most businesses have been beholden to a specific organization that's controlled their provisioning, the policies and the set of bits they can use, everything's been controlled and IT hasn't been well loved by and large. We're moving into a world where it's a much more open ecosystem. Departments are far more empowered, anyone with a corporate credit card can go and get a machine and that's creating amazing agility and velocity for businesses. But it's introducing-- >> Creativity, too. >> A lot of creativity, but it's introducing a lot of pain as well. The hard thing is going to be creating a smart framework that allows empowered decentralization. Going from this world of highly controlled to decentralized empowerment, and I think that's where we're going to see a lot of interest from folks that are operating in the airplay space. >> Okay, multi cloud, just in general. Will people move to multiple clouds? Do you see that? UberClouds, we had Bitnami in earlier like, ah, people aren't really going to multiple clouds. They're not interested in moving workloads. Is that a state of the current situation or will it evolve to workloads anywhere? >> Multi cloud is the reality of our world. There's no serious customer I've spoken to in the last six months that has not been interested in a multi cloud relationship. Sorry, that's not true, there's no enterprise customer I've spoken to the last six months. >> That has not been interested? >> That has not been interested in multi cloud. >> And the reason is? >> In some ways. >> It's for what, resources? >> There's a couple of reasons. One is a lot of companies want to have just a multi provider relationship. They don't want to be beholden to a single cloud provider and frankly almost every customer I speak to has a massive investment in on premise infrastructure. They want to move away from a lot of the pain associated with managing that, but it's not going to happen overnight. Hybrid cloud is going to exist for quite a while. >> This is back to your empowered decentralization theme. >> And we have to provide them the tools to do that. We have to create positive pressure that moves them from those clouds to the public cloud. >> Final concept, and I've heard this a lot, kind of leads into the keynote, not necessarily the words but almost reeking of this concept of mobile infrastructure. I mean, mobile first, cluster first, kind of enables mobile first but mobile is obviously a form factor, whether it's an internet of things as a human or a device, doesn't matter it's still an endpoint the network. >> Yeah. >> It's a multitude of millions of devices so what is mobile infrastructure? Is it different? Is it the same? What's your take on it? >> It's an interesting question and the reality of our world is it's a mobile world. It's almost folly to do anything but think about mobile as the primary vehicle for customers, consumers and everyone else to interface with the internet, with the web. It certainly introduces an interesting set of challenges to application developers. I think one of the things that I am most sort of interested in cracking from a cloud provider's perspective is the world of multiple devices where you have a large set of devices in different form factors that are ultimately presenting a view of the same set of data, the same set of information and creating a set of experiences that work well in that multi device space. Moving away from a world where state is bound to a device to a world where state is based in your cloud and your device is simply providing a view or a way to interface with that data. We still have a way to go before that is fully materialized but I think that's going to be a big sort of anchor point of a lot of mobile development in the space. >> So Craig, where's the locus of competition move then? If the data center just becomes a resource that's on tap, basically, that I can just get? How do the cloud providers then differentiate? >> Basic infrastructure is relatively undifferentiated but when I look at the way that we run inside Google, we do some really, really scary smart things to make your application run for you. If you think about the way we run our infrastructure it's almost like the flight controller of a modern airplane. It's going from the old wire based control system where you move something to move a flap to a world where you have this controller that's taking in million of signals a second and making incredibly informed decisions that is optimizing the heck out of everything you do and making very fine grain corrections and I think that's going to be a huge avenue of differentiation. When you take an application, you package it and you give it to us and you trust us to run it for you and it's running at a slightly higher level, we have a much high extraction level, we can do incredibly smart things with things like machine learning technologies. We can watch how your application's running. We know how it ran last time so we can tell if something's going wrong because we have the ability to actually watch it. This is how we run internally. >> Right, right. >> It's not just about the infrastructure. It's going to be about smart systems that run your application for you. And that's going to be hard to-- >> It's really to abstract above the management of the application. It's actually the management of the application and the optimization of the application as opposed to the infrastructure? >> There's so much more value in moving from static, dumb infrastructure to actively managed, sort of precision managed container based capabilities. It's quite jarring. This was clear to me very soon after we shipped Google Compute Engine. I was able to see, we never looked inside VM so we were able to see what level of CP utilization our customer's were getting and we compared that to what we were able to run in our internal web loads and our customers are only getting like, there were several integer multiples less utilization than what they were paying for. So we knew that something could be done. We could actually move up the abstraction layer and just do a better job by actively managing and making smart decisions. And that would be very disruptive-- >> So let's play a game, we played a game with our last guest, we'll play the game of you and I are going to go into business together and be venture capitalist. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sounds like fun. >> What's our investment thesis? Knowing what we know, I mean, there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there really looking at the enterprise right now. The enterprise is hard, cloud is kind of like a proxy for the enterprise but it's not like your classic enterprise. I'm a tech entrepreneur, I'm a coder, I'm an architect, I'm an OS guy, systems guy, could be a creative filmmaker, whatever but I want to come in and get some white space. Is there white space out there that you see that is an opportunity for developers that could really come in and stake claim and build a really good business? It could be lifestyle business, it could be a home run. Where would we invest? >> Yeah, I think there's so much white space in this domain. We are in the very early days of getting these technologies to market. Obviously there's just bolstering the basic, sort of the fundamentals of the platform. Overlay networking, everyone's talking SDN. Obviously there's a lot of hype around that but being able to create an abstraction that allows high levels of plugability for different network fabrics as you move between clouds is interesting. Storage, and doing a better job of providing virtualized storage that is available to these containers is an area of opportunity. There's a lot of work to be done in the tuning environment, full on application lifecycle management, continuous integration, lots of opportunity in that space. And then frankly, as we start looking at taking these technologies to market and deploying them into real businesses that are running multi cloud, there's going to be a lot of the governance, risk management and compliance overlay capabilities that just don't exist. We have the ability to define policy and enforce it in a very effective way, whether it's security policy, data loss prevention policy-- >> But it has to be dynamic, right? >> And it has to by dynamically done and it has to be enforced at the node. >> That's software, that's hard software? >> And there's so much work to be done there. There's so many opportunities to either create niche, vertically oriented capabilities of service specific protocol or unique, highly valuable, cross coding capabilities. I'm very excited about the future in this space. >> Where would we get started if I was an entrepreneur? Like, hey Craig, I saw your interview, where do I get started? Writing an app engine code? I want to put the boat in the water and starting drifting into this area you just mentioned, how should I navigate in? How should I vector in? >> A lot of it depends on where you're going to be operating in the stack. I would suggest you go and learn Go. Go is rapidly, GoLang, if you want to talk about the sort of the development environment is rapidly emerging as the language for the new cloud. We're seeing a lot of work in the Go community. Docker is written in Go, Kubernetes is written in Go. So I'd start there. It's a great platform for systems development. So I'd start looking at some of the existing technologies, Docker, Kubernetes, start just assessing where the gaps are. I'd probably approach it from a systems development perspective if I was doing it but there's also going to be a lot of value higher up the chain where you can actually-- >> You can dance on top of the stack and around the stack? >> Absolutely. >> Alright so final question, are we going back to the old OS days? I know you were joking before we came on, conversational even in a way, that was pretty relevant. I mean, we're seeing concepts of systems programming of the 80's kind of, but in decentralized way. Comment on that because I think that's tying a lot of things together. >> I think that's an incredibly astute observation and I think we're moving away from a world, operating system today is a node local thing, right? So I have an operating system and it's providing an environment that abstracts me from the physical details of one piece of hardware, one machine, you know one set of resources. What we're starting to see now is the emergence of some of these distributed concepts where you're programming not to a specific singe piece of infrastructure, single piece of hardware but you're programming to a cluster and so I think it's very much like that. I think that's a very astute observation and we're going to see the buzz-- >> But no one vendor owns it. It's owned by the world. >> And nor should one. It needs to be a POSIX like ubiquitous framework that let's us get more out of these cluster centric applications. >> Very organic, I mean I love what's happening is a very organic development but yet there's some, kind of group dynamics going on around cluster and Docker's a great example. Came out of the woodwork to become a defacto standard. Probably the fastest defacto standard that I've ever seen-- >> It's been breathtaking how quickly that technology's taken hold. >> And that's just the crowd. >> Yeah. >> Just saying, hey if we don't like decide on something? We like these guys the best, they didn't piss anyone off or whatever, whatever the dynamic is. It could be double source, flywheel, but-- >> It's interesting, certainly from Google's perspective, we've noticed Docker a lot sooner than most the world did. We had technologies that we could have stood up as potentially competing capabilities but we chose not to, because the world is incredibly well served by a single standard for defining and packaging applications. Now we need to continue that and we need to build the standard for the POSIX like distributed systems standard, that people think about coding to when they're building these modern, next gen cloud V2 applications. >> Craig, I really appreciate you spending the time. Love the conversation, love kind of the long winding road we took there. We knocked out some Kubernetes. We talked about Docker containers. Talked about the future of the industry. Really appreciate it, you're awesome to have on theCUBE here, you're invited any time. CUBE alumni Craig McLuckie right on theCUBE. We'll be right back, here, live in San Francisco broadcasting exclusively from Google's developer conference here, the Cloud Platform Live Event from Google. We'll be right back after this short break. (light music)