>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is theCUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and coming to you from our Boston area studio. theCUBE is happy to participate in the CloudHealth CloudLIVE event, Corey Quinn and myself going head to head with The Great Cloud Debate but of course, one of the things we always love is that talk to the practitioners and so thank you to the CloudHealth team for bringing us the guest that I'm about to speak to you with, Patrick Hetherton. He is the vice president of tech ops at Jobcase, also a Boston area company. Patrick, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. >> All right, so let's start, if you could just give our audience a little bit, Jobcase, what the company does and your role in the art? >> Sure, so you know, Jobcase we like to position ourselves as the company that is the people first social platform for, you know, empowering America's workers. So we've been working with the frontline workers for a number of years, helping them secure jobs. When you looked at companies like LinkedIn or other companies that cater towards more advanced degrees, we're doing more of the frontline workers, the blue collar workers. About 80 to 85% of our members don't have advanced degrees and we are, you know, currently at about 110 million members right now. We get 25 million unique visitors a month but, you know, we're basically trying to help those frontline workers navigate through these challenging times right now. >> Well, yeah, Patrick, I have to imagine that right now with the global pandemic going on, and jobs in a bit of flux, your team must be really busy, especially if you talk about frontline, you know, there's some very large manufacturing and service companies that are doing massive hiring, I know, I poked around the Jobcase site quite a bit and saw plenty in the in the Boston area. So if you could, you know, is that architecturally, are there anything you need to do differently is, you now, how are you thinking scale and adjust and to manage with kind of the spike in traffic that I expect you're seeing? >> Yeah, so it's been interesting, you know, we've seen a lot of different peaks and valleys throughout but right now, what we're doing is we're trying to help a lot of folks, there's certain folks who aren't comfortable going back to the workforce at this time or can't because of daycare situations. So we've done a lot of things about filtering for jobs that are remote only. We've done a lot of things about navigating the unemployment lines and things like that on how to make sure that you're focused on getting things and those who do want to go back to work we've been working with some partners to make sure that those opportunities are presented to our user base. >> Excellent, well, your session for the CloudHealth CloudLIVE event is about security. Before we get into the security piece, just your role as tech ops, can you give us a little bit of how that fits into the landscape at Jobcase? You know, how do you look at tech ops? You know, my understanding tech ops is very similar to SRE, big, buzz job lately for a site reliability engineer, so what's your responsibility? How does that fit through the rest of your work? >> Sure, so I joined Jobcase about four years ago and you know, it was, I was given the role of technical operations or tech ops, which basically meant everything that the developers weren't doing from the technology side. So it was more of IT, onboarding and security of the laptops and systems there, a little bit of facility work as far as making sure the office was set up properly and things like that, but also the DevOps or SRE team reported to me. When I first started four years ago, it was one IT person and one DevOps person and now we have six DevOps engineers and three IT people. >> Excellent, well, security, of course, you know, in general it has been a very important topic, something you're speaking on, you know, I've been hearing for years, the discussion of security can't be a bolt-on, it can't be an afterthought, it is everyone's responsibility. You know, the DevOps movement, of course, has put that fully front and center. So tell us a little bit about, you know, how cybersecurity fits into your role and a little taste of what you're going to be sharing at the CloudHealth CloudLIVE? >> Sure, so you know, it's gone through so many iterations, I mean, you've got DevSecOps, you've got the SREs, you've got risk ops. You know, we don't tend to get caught up in the buzzwords too much but more about roles and responsibilities. So, we started off as traditional Dev and Ops teams that basically dev wrote the code, we deployed the code. We found that we didn't scale very well at that and we wanted to make sure that we could get a little bit more velocity in the place so we rolled out the DevOps model and things like that and started giving more responsibility to the development team. That freed up a lot of my team's time to basically go out and start looking at more secure ways of letting our software go out. So that whole shift left mentality where we wanted to find things a little bit quicker. Make sure we were doing some baseline examples of secure practices and things like that. So that was really where we started focusing in on and what we've been doing for the past year and trying to roll this process out. >> Okay, I did a little poking around online, I understand you're also involved in the Kubernetes rollout in your company. In early days of container security was, you know, a hot button topic. Feels like we've made some good progress on that but maybe if you could connect the dots between what you're doing on the security side and general containers, we'd love to hear more about your Kubernetes deployment tool? >> Sure, so we do everything through templates, through CloudFormation so we kind of lock them down to a certain security groups and things like that but we're also having a rollout of making sure things are patched in a cohesive manner. So we have a rollout process for, you know, running the latest versions of code, updating everything. And now the, that's what my team really focuses on is making sure that we have a clear, concise process for the development team to focus in on and roll out so that they're comfortable with it, whether it goes through all the environments, our dev environment, our integration environment, our staging environment, all the way up to production, it's the same process. >> Yeah, and how do you look at that kind of a line between the developers and the infrastructure? So tech ops usually is building the place and not the ones that are actually building the new products and how does Kubernetes fit into that overall discussion? >> So we have a bunch of different teams that we work with, three primarily, and each one's at a different phase, and I think that's the thing that you have to realize, you have to do what works well for your company. So certain teams do more on the infrastructure side, where we kind of give them base guidelines as to what sizes and things like that for infrastructure they should be using and others, we have to do a little more hand holding and make sure that they understand, you know, okay, let's take a step back and understand what you're trying to accomplish, what kind of traffic patterns you want to roll out and get a little bit deeper understanding and work with them. So each team's a little different but we really blur the line a lot between Dev and Ops, I mean, it's the only way you really develop fast and secure. >> Excellent, what about automation? How does that fit into everything we've been talking about here? >> Yeah, so we've spent a ton of time on that. So again, with the CloudFormation templates, it's basically you could blow up an account and just rerun the scripts and recreate the account from scratch with a bunch of auto scaling groups so if nodes go down, they get replaced automatically. So there's all sorts of automation built in, I think we've cut down on our alerts tenfold over the past year just by all these automation scripts, and we get notifications that things have happened but there's usually no human interaction anymore, you know, for simple hardware failures. We're mostly getting more of a hardware problem right now, as far as some incompatibilities or difference that may have come with an upgrade. >> All right, so Patrick, how does your organization look at cloud? Are you all in a public cloud or using multiple clouds? You know, what's that environment? >> Yeah, so we won in AWS and we've stayed in AWS, we're not multicloud, but we do our DR plan in there and everything but 100% in the cloud. >> Okay, excellent, so you know, you're obviously using CloudHealth as part of your overall solution. How do they fit into that discussion? And give us a little bit about how long you've been using them and what you've been seeing? >> Sure, so we started with their cost program, CloudHealth, and we wanted to get a better understanding of all of our costs, especially when we're going into this more distributed model where developers had the ability to roll out infrastructure, we wanted to make sure not so much that they had budgets, but had an understanding of how much they were spending. So when you go from that centralized control as to releasing controlled individuals, with that control comes responsibility, and you know, we wanted to make sure we're making good business decisions and so we rolled out CloudHealth to all the users to be able to see what each program was costing. We did that about two years ago and we've really just finalized it the last couple of months, I've making sure that everything was tagged appropriately and engineers can see how much each application costs to run. Then last year, we decided to look at some security programs to kind of help us launch that. We're doing a lot of stuff by hand and using some of the AWS services but we wanted something to kind of roll out more to the executive team to be able to see how we're doing, as far as you know, benchmarks and things like that. So we looked at a couple different programs but we had such a really good experience with CloudHealth on the onboarding, we decided to use VMware Secure State and have been rolling that out and using that to my team primarily right now and started rolling out to all the dev teams. >> It's really interesting, Patrick, you know, you've been around long enough, I'm sure that there have been times where security or the billing or all those other things is something that somebody else took care of, if I'm kind of a typical business person, what you're laying out sounds like, there's communication, collaboration, you know the business and the technical side working together. You know, are we are we getting closer to that, you know, we're all pulling in the same direction and have clear visibility as to what the business needs and what the kind of the technical and financial pieces are? >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean, it's definitely been a joint effort, I work with the finance team on a regular basis to kind of give forecasts and things like that, especially during these challenging times, you have to know how much you're spending on these bills, I mean, the cloud is one of our biggest bills, obviously, for Jobcase. So we wanted to have a good understanding there but we also want to drive the business forward. We're working with partners right now, during these times to make sure we're getting, you know, even some free services as far as doing some trials and things like that, to ensure that we're being cost conscious for the company but also driving initiative forward. >> Yeah, Patrick, is there anything out there, you know, in the ecosystem that is on your wish list that would make your company and your job even easier? >> Great question. You know, I think better integration between all the programs, I mean, you've got a lot of best to breed programs out there so you worry about technology sprawl, you know, from application monitoring, to system monitoring, to cost monitoring and things like that, there is no silver bullet. So you know, if there was that would be great but you have to kind of pick the best to breed in all cases, we kind of go with the 80/20 rule. If a program does 80%, but it integrates with other programs and we're going to use that over one that's maybe 90, 95%, just for ease of use and computation. >> Great, well, Patrick, I want to give you the final word, any other final takeaways that you would share with your peers as to things they should be looking at or things they should prepare their teams for to be more effective and more secure? >> Yeah, I'd say don't be afraid of change but also work with your dev teams. If you make it too difficult for them or it becomes an us versus them, it's just never going to work. It has to be a partnership, they have to buy into the things that you're trying to do and in most cases, they will, they want to do the right things but you've got to kind of eliminate the noise from them and make sure that they're only getting the things that are important to the company. >> Well, Patrick, thank you much for sharing and absolutely, a very important service Jobcase is performing especially right now when, you know, jobs and as you said, flexible work environments are critically important. Thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> All right, be sure to check out the CloudHealth CloudLIVE event. I'm Stu Miniman, you'll see me and Corey Quinn in The Great Cloud Debate and thank you for watching theCUBE. (gentle music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld 2018, brought to you by VMware and it's eco-system partners. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three of three days of coverage, VMworld 2018 here in Las Vegas, CUBE wall-to-wall coverage, 94 interviews, two sets, our ninth year covering VMworld, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stuart Miniman on this segment, our next guest is Milin Desai, who is the Vice President and general manager of Cloud Services at VMware, formerly driving the NSX business, been there for multiple years, eight years. Great to see you, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Pleasure to be here. >> So you've seen the evolution, you've been there, you've been in the boat. NSX, on a good path, doing really well, cloud services, very clear visibility on what strategy is. >> Mm-hmm. >> Private and public, hybrid multi-cloud, validated by the leader AWS and Andy Jassy, again for the second year. So pretty clear visibility at least on what the landscape looks like. >> Mm-hmm. Multiple clouds, software driving all the value. What's the cloud services piece that you're running now? Take a minute to explain what the landscape looks like, what's your charter, what are you trying to do, and what's happening with news and announcements? >> Sure, so about two years back we started on this journey around cloud services. And the premise was that, increasingly, there are two trends taking place which is; SaaS delivered experiences for on prem. So how can we deliver SaaS experiences on prem? As well as the partnership with, you know AWS for VMware cloud on AWS. So the two things started coming together both in terms of a product opportunity, which is VMware cloud AWS. But overall delivering our capabilities as SaaS, both hybrid as well as in the public clouds. So cloud services is a portfolio that delivers VMware services from management, to security, to operations, as SaaS services to the private cloud as well as to the public cloud. >> Tom Corn, the Senior Vice President of general security projects, was just on theCUBE today as well before you came on. He said, I asked him for a prediction and I'll ask you at the end too, for a 2019 prediction, but he said, "I see the conversation starting to be "security as a service someday," and he's kind of like connecting the dots a bit. But that proves the point it's a SAS business model. The services need to be consumable and scalable. This is a key design criteria and a product guiding principal right, for you guys? >> Yes, So increasingly SaaS makes it easy. The value benefits on that is I don't need to operate, it just works and I can get the value out of what we are delivering. And that's really what's driving the adoption of SaaS. It's easy to use, it gets you to outcomes quicker, and I don't need to worry about the management elements of that and so whether it's you take our updates to cloud management, we announced Cloud Assembly, Service Broker, and Code Stream, all delivered as SaaS to our hybrid infrastructure as well as if you want to deploy workloads in AWS or Azure, same thing. AppDefense, Tom's product, is delivered as a SaaS service. VMC on AWS is a managed SaaS service. So you're seeing that come together as VMware. The idea is can we bring that experience on prem as well as in the hybrid cloud? >> Yeah, Milin really interesting topic because often what gets lost when we're talking about multi cloud is what really matters, is applications and the data that sits on top of it. Maybe walk through a little bit, my on premises vs my SASified stuff vs the cloud native and PKS. How much of the business is driven from all of these pieces? >> So the majority of our business right now, is on premise software. Where customers are building and operating the infrastructure with our software. Now the first evolution into SAS was actually with our service providers, who are using the subscription model to deliver VMware as a service to their end customers. And then the second iteration of that is VMware cloud on AWS, which is growing really well. Both in terms of adoption as well of number of customers and now you are seeing the next evolution. So I would say from a numbers standpoint it's low, but in terms of number of customers adopting it, that number is high. So whether it's cloud operations with Wavefront or the whole automations suite that was launched, AppDefense. We are starting to see the shift to SAS but I would say the majority of our customers are on on prem software with VMware cloud foundation which includes NSX, and a visualized management portfolio which has been driving the majority of the revenue. >> I got to ask you about NSX relative to the cloud services because one of the things we've been pontificating and analyzing is how multi cloud is really going to work and we always try to compare and contrast to networking because Stu and I love networking and storage and some of the infrastructure stuff but if you go back into the evolution of TCPIP and what that did for the industry and Gelsinger likes to talk about this too, is NSX the kind of enabler that TCPIP was? TCP and then you had IP, created a lot of value, in inter-networking. What does the customer challenge look like when you're doing multi-cloud? It's not trivial it's hard to do. Is there a inter-operability framework, is it NSX? What could that be? >> Great question. I think as we go from private, to public, to the edge the virtual cloud network is what connects it all together and so definitely from within the data center with now the Velo Cloud acquisition the WAN, and then layering it with analytics and observability with visualized network insight, the portfolio of NSX allows you to connect these disparate data islands and operate very seamlessly, in this hybrid cloud world. Now the same construct applies, when you go native public cloud, where you can connect into AWS or an Azure and that's where, again the Velo Cloud acquisition alongside how NSX is extending its security policy, into AWS and Azure so that you can get the same security posture on prem, at the Edge, in VMC on AWS, with our VCP providers, as well as Native AWS and native Azure. So definitely NSX is that connective tissue, that's why we call it the Virtual Cloud Network, connects the Hybrid Cloud to the Multi Cloud. >> Seamlessly? >> Seamlessly. >> One of the feedbacks I get from users is, you know multi-cloud is challenging. There's that big elephant, how do I get my arms around all of the pieces where'll my data lives? Maybe give us an update there. I did have a chat with Joe Kinsella on theCUBE yesterday. So if CloudHealth Technologies fits into that overall cloud management piece, I'm sure it does, and you can give a little bit of guidance? I'd like to understand how that fits. >> Yes, you know we talked a lot about SAS and delivering VMware services as SAS to vSphere customers but there's this other world where people are going native AWS, native Azure, native GCP. The interesting thing I tell folks is it's very easy to consume cloud but as you start consuming it, you start dealing with tens of thousands of objects, across multiple projects, hundreds of projects across thousands of users. And when you start looking at the problem statements, same things, visibility, lack of visibility, resource management, you tend to over provision to in the cloud, right? By now you're paying by the drip so there's a definite impact to the bottom line. End to end observability and then configuration compliance. Think about this, you're operating at 10X in terms of changes, the chances of making a configuration mistake like leaving an S3 bucket open, are quite high. >> We've seen examples of that, too. >> Exactly, many a CIO have been fired because of that issue. So what we've been seeing with our customers is this has become a data problem, right? So the acquisition of CloudHealth allows us to essentially provide a platform that has that data, and then deliver to our customers in the native cloud, visibility, I say cost management so using reserved instances over on demand, resource management, hey your old provision on your elastic block storage we can reduce the storage capacity and save money. I can optimize RDS better. Sequel right sizing in Azure, so resource management becomes very interesting. Returns on a typical customer with CloudHealth are upwards of 60%. When you take that into consideration with real time security configuration, Secure State was just announced in beta, this week so real time security configuration. When that mistake happens with an S3 bucket being open? Sub 10 seconds we will notify the user that there is a mis-configuration in the cloud, please go fix it. >> Yeah, I'm curious, one of the other challenges is when I have, especially using lots of different SAS providers, public cloud, private cloud, data protection is a big challenge there. I know VMware has a lot of ecosystem partners, one of the hottest things over the couple years. Is that primarily an ecosystem play? How does VMware position there? >> Yeah so in the hybrid cloud world, like you said we have a very strong ecosystem, multiple vendors here exhibiting, there will be some default elements that we bring into vSAN to help kind of the basics of data, you know back up and management but we will definitely continue to partner with our ecosystem when it comes to an aggregate stack of data management but there will be pockets of just simple back up capabilities that you'll start seeing in vSAN, I think we announced the beta of that this week. >> Talk about your organization, do the general managers, do you have a profit loss responsibility so do you have revenue? >> Yes. >> Talk about the team, how you guys are set up. How big is the team? What's the focus? >> Our team, there's two elements to my team. One is my team drives cloud service across VMware so there are folks developing services themselves. The size of the team is now 70 strong across product, marketing and engineering. And then I also work with my counterparts like Mark Lohmeyer, AJ Singh who are building services on our common platform, right? And it's an aggregate to the customer, they come to cloud.vmware.com they federate their enterprise identity, they log in, they see our catalog. It's like a Netflix-like catalog. You can subscribe to it, you get a common experience in terms of billing and essentially start using the services. So it's not only what my team builds but an aggregate what VMware is building and offering to our end users. >> And what go to market do you have? Which products are you doing that go to market for? >> It's all of our SAS based cloud services. We collectively drive the go to market for that as a team working with our corporate marketing team. >> Awesome. >> Yep. >> So that would be a combination of VMware on AWS, AppDefense, now Secure State, Wavefront, and very soon CloudHealth. >> Yeah, a lot of pressure. (laughing) >> Do the SAS product share, do they live in like the AWS marketplace, IBM, you know DOC or what? Where can they get all of them? >> Today you go to cloud.vmare.com and subscribe to them. Certain offers are starting to get into AWS Marketplace, so CloudHealth is actually in the AWS marketplace. >> Sure, sure. >> And we are looking at Wavefront, which is a hidden jewel in our portfolio is also we are thinking about how can get it into the respective marketplaces of Azure, GCP, and others. But today if you want to access any of these services, you simply go and trial it by just going to our website and starting a trial. >> So they've given you all the new stuff, make it happen. AWS, VMware, AWS, vice versa. RDS on premises, you doing that as well? >> Yes. RDS on vSphere, since the announce we've had phenomenal conversations over here. >> Yeah, it's really exciting, I think people don't understand how big this is. >> John, I had a phenomenal conversation with Yanbing and Christos from the storage and availability business who just really broke down how all of that worked in detail. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> The customer interest is high. Someone asked me, why RDS? And they said it's such a hard problem and that was my point exactly, there is such a pain when it comes to managing databases and just like everything else, we started off the conversation, customers want a managed service. They don't want to deal with the intricacies of managing databases, they just want the outcomes from how they access databases. Amazon has solved it very elegantly with RDS, it's one of their most popular services. Why not bring it on prem? So that's been a great engineering partnership we are driving with them, and I'm really excited to bring it to market, shortly. >> Well we're looking forward to keeping in touch, we wanted to actually follow up with you on that. It's a story we're going to be following, certainly developing, it's big news, we love it. Thanks for coming on and spending the time. I got to get you to put a prediction out there for 2019. What do you see happening in 2019 that we're going to be talking about next year at VMworld? Personal prediction, could be a VMware prediction. You've seen a lot of what's going on with NSX, you see what's going on in the big picture, wholistically what is the prediction for 2019? >> It might be a boring prediction, but I fundamentally believe this notion of hybrid being bi-directional in nature. I think you'll see more of that. Even Google announced GKE on vSphere, as an example. So I think you will see more of that come through and it won't be a one way destination conversation that we keep having. And you will see VMware truly be a multicloud company. It won't matter if you're deploying the application in the native cloud, or in a vSphere based cloud. We will help the customer where they land the application. My firm belief is next year when we are here, we'll be talking about stories about how we are helping scale customers in Azure and AWS and GCP on one end, and about how we brought cloud on prem with services like RDS. >> Final question, I'm going to put you on the spot. What do you think is the biggest disruptive enabler for the next 10 years in this bi-directional multi cloud world? Can you point to one this that says, that's going to be the disruptive enabler for the next 10 to 20 years? Is there something out there you can point to, trend, technology, the standard? >> So the way I think about the world is a little bit differently in terms of I truly believe that we are getting inundated by data. I'm not talking about the data that you store in terms of running your business but in terms of the metadata that you run your operations and your infrastructure with. And I believe that the layer that will control that portion, the metadata of infrastructure and applications, we have not even begun to understand where that goes and then you apply AI and ML techniques to that? The idea of, I'll throw a term around here, self driving data centers and self optimizing applications I get really excited but it all begins with that data layer. And we are starting to put the beginning signs with CloudHealth, our private cloud assets to start that process. I'm really excited about how AI/ML meets that data layer to achieve those outcomes. >> It automates IT operations, sounds like automation's coming. Milin, thanks for coming on. Milin Desai, he's the vice president general manager of VMware's cloud services. The hottest area, it's emerging, it's got a lot of attention. We'll be following it, of course, on siliconANGLE and Wikibon and theCUBE. We're day three coverage here in the broadcast booth in Las Vegas in the VM village. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, stay with us for more after this short break. (upbeat techno music)