(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: Live, from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering Informatica World 2018, brought to you by Informatica. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage, here in Las Vegas, at the Venetian Hotel. I'm John Furrier, co-host of the Cube, with Peter Burris co-hosting with me the next two days, wall-to-wall coverage. Our next guest is Richard Cramer, who's the Chief Healthcare Strategist for Informatica World, back from last year, had a great chat. We talked about data swamps and data lakes. This year it's about governance and the enterprise. Great to see you again, thanks for coming back. >> Thanks for having me back. >> Actually, healthcare, we can go on and on. Peter and I can rant about that, but this is really where the healthcare has had data challenges always. They've had regulations. Governance, some will say, maybe, maybe not. What's different this year, for you and your conversations? We talked about data swamps last year, and data lakes. Where is it this year? What's the conversation with customers in healthcare? What's happening? >> Well I think it really is a reflection of the maturity of people using data, naturally coming from a data swamp or a data lake. How do we keep it from becoming a swamp? You govern it. And so as people start to use data, which we're really coming into our own in healthcare, governance becomes the top topic. When I start to share data, and people ask me where'd this come from, what did it mean? And I'm not able to answer that question, that's a governance problem. And so we're really starting to see enterprise data governance and compliance come to the forefront of almost every one of my conversations. >> And where is the catalyst coming from? Is it some of the regulation? Is it some of the awareness? Is it in a moment where the straw breaks the camel's back, so to speak? Where is it coming from, the governance question? >> It really is coming from an executive level, where as we start to use data, we have more executive dashboards, there's a desire to actually make data-driven decisions, both for business purposes and clinical care, if you can't explain where the data came from and why, what it means when people ask you questions, they don't trust it. And so I think it really is, as we start to really use data for the first time, it needs to be reliable and trustworthy, and that's a governance problem. It's not a tool problem, it's not an architecture problem, it's a people or process problem, and that's governance. >> Well one of the things that's true about healthcare, is healthcare has been driving the vanguard of ethics in society, for probably a few centuries now. And it's starting to happen in technology as well. I think the whole concept of GDPR is made even that much clearer, as a consequence of people actually becoming a little bit more concerned about their health information getting into the hands of people they don't want to get access to that information. How is this relationship between healthcare, ethics, and now governance, starting to affect the conversations that you're having in healthcare and beyond? >> Well I think healthcare has had HIPAA, which is all about privacy and protection of information. We've had that for a long number of years, but that was really a data element, not an appropriate use, but hey, this data, you can't share without permission. Now we're talking-- >> And it wasn't about the subject, it was about the data that you controlled. >> That's right. And now we're really talking about, and genomic data is a big part of this, is the ethical use of data. Can I use this data appropriately? If I'm doing it for your benefit, and to help you care for yourself, yeah, I think we probably can. But it's a governance challenge, right? What data do I have? What am I allowed to use it for, for what purpose? And who has consented to that? We have a similar issue that if you're a hospital that also has a health plan, and you can share data about a patient from that health plan with that hospital. But how about a competing hospital across town? Well I can't share that data, potentially, because of regulatory reasons. So really, the need to know what data you have, what policies apply to that data, and be able to consistently and authoritatively govern that data, I think is really a good example of what's driving enterprise data governance and compliance. >> So on the compliance side, when you think about outside the United States, obviously GDPR Friday kicks in. That's creating a lot of awareness. >> Yes. >> What's the impact of that, if any, to healthcare? Is it no big deal, we've been there, we can handle this? They have the data issues. What are you hearing on that front? >> So really, two-fold. First, GDPR is probably the best representation of really good stringent, proper, consumer privacy data controls that exist. So even if you're not compelled to abide by GDPR, it's a great roadmap and it's a great model to follow, 'cause it's just good data discipline. We also have the good fortune at Informatica, that some of the leading healthcare organizations in the country, are our customers, and they happen to have footprints in Europe. And so they do in fact have a GDPR challenge. Do I have a patient from the EU that's coming to my U.S.-based facility? Do I have a U.S.-based patient that's in an EU facility? Do I have an EU licensed provider? The complexity of the GDPR challenge for some of our U.S.-based healthcare customers is pretty involved, and they're acutely aware of it. So I don't think there's been anything like GDPR in terms of data protection, that's existed in healthcare. >> Yeah, that's going to change the game. I guess, my gut feeling, again, you're the expert on this, but my feeling is that it will slow things down. It's mind-boggling that, I don't know, I'm a European patient going to a U.S. hospital, now something has to happen that didn't have to happen before. Or, is that, am I getting it right? >> I think that it holds the potential to get it to slow things down, if you treat it as a one-off. If you treat it as good data architecture, and you implement a system that that's just an artifact of how you manage data, it doesn't slow anything down, I think it makes things quicker. >> John: So the mandate is go faster. >> Because it's just the priorities. >> That's right. >> Well it sets a priority, and it forces you to have a good data architecture that operates like a well-oiled machine. >> But let me explain what I mean by that, 'cause it's very consistent with what you're saying. One of the biggest challenges about data is a lot of executives don't understand it, don't know what to do with it, can't treat it as an asset. GDPR, amongst other things, is forcing a consensus around what data can be to the business, what it should not be to the business, and that's helping to set priorities so that folks, you may be right, it may be a one-off basis. People may complain about it, but if it's used as an architectural direction, it may actually accelerate because it sets a consensus about what the priorities should be. >> Yes, and where you started is exactly why. It is a universally-understood business imperative that every executive knows. And the fact that underlying it is great data architecture, well that's just a bonus, 'cause it sets the priority correctly. >> But here's my challenge on that, because to create data architecture is aspirational for many, but not feasible in a short-term. So how do they get there? And then they want to have, hey, let's have some great data architecture. But what the Hell does that even mean? Some customers might be, I know hospitals might be more advanced, but there might, well maybe not, (laughing) but again, again, so take us through that. Some people might aspire for great data architecture, but it might take time to get there. >> So great data architecture, though, this is part of the generational market shift in data. And in the past, we had data silos, and data silos are bad, we must break them down and we must centralize and control data, as a path to value. That took a heck of a long time, and actually could not really be achieved. What's changed now is we accept silos are going to exist, self-service for data consumption exists, the problem is not now how do I centralize and control data within an inch of its life, to get value, the challenge now is how do I manage enterprise data as an asset, accepting that that's the landscape? A data catalog changes everything. >> Talk about the impact of that, 'cause this is super-important. It's not centralizing the data, it's just having a catalog with visibility into the meta-data, of all that data. >> Exactly right. So before, I didn't know where all of my data was, and data security being, and I, if I don't know I have it, how the heck can I secure it? Well with a catalog, for the first time, it's straightforward, simple, and easy, to know what data I have. You actually have a chance of securing it. So the answer, that's the path to getting real value with great data architecture, without taking decades to try and centralize and control. >> It's time for dancing. Richard, we got the music coming on. Last year it was data lakes, data swamps. That's awareness. Now it's enterprise governance, the catalog looking good from you guys. Congratulations. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> Alright, day one. Wrapping down, kicking off the Solutions Exhibit Hall here for Informatica World 2018. I'm John Furrier and Peter Burris. Stay tuned for more coverage, here from Las Vegas, it's the Cube. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, It's The Cube. Covering Informatica World 2017 brought to you by Informatica. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to The Cube coverage, exclusive coverage of Informatica 2017, we are live in San Francisco breaking down all the action of Informatica's big conference Informatica World 2017, I'm John Furrier with Silicon Angle The Cube, my cohost Peter Burris, head of research and also general manager wikibon.com check it out, great research there, next guest is Richard Cramer, Chief Healthcare Strategist fpr Informatica, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you John. >> Great to see you, we were just talking before we went live about you love data, you love customers, and healthcare is booming, certainly healthcare is one of those use cases, it's a vertical that everyone can relate to, one. Two, it's the most dynamic with data right now and internet of things connected sensors you know what a room looks like a zillion things connected, now you got wearables, still you got the data problem, it's never going away, certainly it exists there, but now it's changing, so break it down for us, what is the challenges and drivers right now in the healthcare industry relative to getting great software and great solutions to help patients. >> Well you're 100% right, one of the things that's exciting about healthcare is it matters to all of us. Every one of us is a patient, every one of us has a horror story of interacting with a healthcare system and so when we look at the opportunity for data, healthcare has historically not used data very well. We had the High-tech Act in 2009 that got electronic healthcare records in place, we're coming out of the backside of that, so arguably for the first time we finally have the deep rich clinical data that we've needed to do analytics with for the first time. We now have the technology that's coming around with what we call data 3.0 and big data processing power and then as you mentioned internet of things and all of the rich sources of new data that we can do discovery on and learn new things about how to treat patients better and then really the final component is we have the financial incentives are finally aligned. We used to in healthcare pay for piecework. The more you did, the more you got paid. And shockingly we were inefficient, we did too much. (laughs) And now we're changing to paying for value. And we can pay for value because we can finally measure quality and outcomes because we have the data. And so that's really the analytics opportunity that's so exciting in healthcare right now. >> What's interesting is that in this digital transformation, and business transformation and all the conversations we've had over the years on The Cube and look at all the top shows in the enterprise and emerging tech, you're seeing one pattern, we had the Chicago Cubs on yesterday talking baseball but whether it's sports, business, or healthcare or whatever vertical, there's kind of three things, and we'll take baseball, right? Fan experience, how to run the players and the team, and how to run the organization. Healthcare is the same thing, how to run an organization, how to take care of the players, the doctors and the practitioners, and then also the end user, the fan experience, the patient experience. So now you have, it used to be hey are we running our organization and the practitioners were part of that maybe subordinate to it, maybe they interacted with it, but now like a baseball team you have how do I run my organization, how do I make the players, the doctors and practitioners successful, and now the patients, the end users are now part of it as well. This is opening up massive innovation opportunities. What's your reaction to that and how should people think about the data in that context? >> So I think the first piece of what you said is very true, which is really for the first time, healthcare organizations are behaving like real businesses. When you start to get paid for results, you now care about a lot of things that you didn't care about before. Patient experience matters 'cause consumers have choice, those types of things, so all of those digital transformation examples from other industries are now relevant and front and center for healthcare organizations. Which is radically different and so that opportunity to use data and use it for a specific purpose is very valuable. I think the other thing that's important with digital transformation is historically healthcare is very local. It's regional, you go to the hospital that's closest to you. And digital disruption is all about removing geographic barriers. The goal in healthcare today is we're reducing cost, you want to push healthcare out of that high cost hospital into the most cost effective highest quality organization you can. That maybe a retail clinic in a shopping mall. And how do you do that? You do that with digital technology. Telehealth in the home. All of those types of things are traditional digital transformation types of capabilities that healthcare has not traditionally cared about. >> So optimizing a network effect if you will, we always hear in network, out of network as a term (laughs) >> Yep. >> My wife and I go oh it's in network, oh good, so out of network always kind of means spendy but now you're talking about a reconfiguration of making things much more efficient as piece parts. >> Well exactly right and the idea of the network, the network used to be drive everybody to the hospital, 'cause that's where we made our money. Well when you're getting paid for results, the hospital's a cost center, not a revenue center. You actually want to keep people out of the hospital. And as a consumer and as somebody who's paying for healthcare, that's actually a good thing. If I can avoid going to the hospital and get healthcare in a more convenient setting that I want to do at home or someplace closer to home and not be admitted to a hospital, hospitals are dangerous places. >> Peter, you've been doing, I've seen you and I comment on Facebook all the time, certainly the healthcare things sparks the conversation but big data can solve a lot of this stuff, I know you're doing a lot of thinking around this. >> Well so fascinating conversation, I'd say a couple things really quickly and then get your take on it. First off a lot of the evidence based management techniques we heard about yesterday originated in healthcare. Because of the >> You mean like data management and all that stuff? >> Peer review, how we handle clinical trials, the amount of data that's out there, so a lot of the principles about how data could be used in a management framework began in healthcare and they have kind of diffused the marketplace, but the data hasn't been there. Now there's some very powerfully aligned interests. Hospitals like their data, manufacturers of products like their data, doctors like their data, consumers don't know what to do with their data. They don't know what value the data is. So if we take a look at those interests, it's going to be hard, and there's a lot of standards, there's a lot of conventions, each of those groups have their so now the data's available, but the integration is going to be a major challenge. People are using HIPAA as an excuse not to do it, manufacturers and other folks are using other kinds of excuses not to facilitate the data because everybody wants control of the final money. So we've heard a lot at the conference about how, liberate the data, free it up, make it available to do more work, but the second step is integration. You have got the integration problem of all integration problems in data. >> Yes. >> Talk about how some of the healthcare leaders are starting to think about how they're going to break down some of these barriers and begin the process of integrating some of their data so they can in fact enact different types of behaviors. >> Yeah and great context for what's happening in healthcare with data. So if you think of five, six, seven years ago at Informatica, my role was to go and look at what other industries had done for traditional enterprise data warehousing and bring that knowledge back into healthcare and say healthcare you're ten years behind the rest of industry (laughs) here's how you should think about your data analytics. Well that's completely different now. The data challenge as you've outlined it are we've always had data complexity, we now have internet of things data like nobody's business and we also have this obligation to use the data far more effectively than we ever have before. Well one of the key parts of this is that the idea of centralizing and controlling data as a path value is no longer viable. We can argue whether it was ever successful, but it really is not even an option anymore when you look at the proliferation of data sources, the proliferation of data types, the complexity, we simply can't govern data to perfection before we get using (laughs) which is traditionally the healthcare approach. What we're really looking at now is this whole idea of big data analytics applied to all data and being able to do discovery that says we can make good decisions with data that may not be perfect and this is the big data, put it into a data lake, do some self service discovery, some self service data preparation, reduce the distance between the people who know what the data means and being able to get hands on and work with it so that you can iterate and you can discover. You cannot do that in an old fashioned EDW context where we have to extract, transform, load, govern to perfection, all the data before anybody ever gets to use it. >> John: That's why I'm excited about data in motion. >> Well even, yeah data, we'll get to that in a second because that's important, but even before we get there, John, I mean again, think about how powerful some of these industries are. Drug companies keep drug prices high in the U.S. because they have visibility into the data, the nature of the treatments, et cetera. One of the most interesting things, this is one I want to attest with you on. Is that doctors, where a lot of this evidence based management has started because of peer review, because of their science orientation, even though they get grooved into their own treatments, generally speaking our interest is in exploring new pathways to health and wellness. So is, do you have a very powerful user group that will adopt this ability to integrate data very quickly because they can get greater visibility into new tactics, new techniques, new healthcare regimes as well as new information about patients? Are doctors going to be crucial to this process in your opinion? >> Doctors are going to be crucial to the discussion, we had a healthcare breakfast with a speaker from Deloitte the other day who talked about using data with clinicians to have a data discussion. Not use data to tell them you're wrong or whatnot but actually to engage them in the discovery process of here's what the data shows about your practice. And you talk about the idea of data control, that's absolutely one of the biggest barriers. The technology does not solve data control. >> Right. >> In the old days, everybody admits we have silo data, we have HIPAA, it was so hard to break down those barriers and actually share data that nobody really addressed the fact that people didn't want to. Because they couldn't. Well now with the technology that's available it's >> What's possible, the art of possible. >> Yeah, now it's possible to actually get data from everywhere and do things with it quickly. We run into the fact that people have to explicitly say I don't want to share. >> But here's where that data movement issue becomes so important John and I think that this is a play for Informatica. Because metadata is going to be crucial to this process. Being, giving people who do have some understanding of data, clinicians, physicians, because of their background, because of the way that medicine is supposed to be run at that level, giving them visibility into the data that's available, that could inform their practices and their decisions is really crucial. >> Absolutely. One of, a good friend who's a clinician has been asking for years, he says if all you did was give me access to data about my patients so I could explore my own clinical practice, says I'm guaranteed I take care of diabetics the way I learned in medical school 25 years ago. There has been a lot of innovation in that and just having the perspective on my own practice patterns from my own data would change my behavior. And we, typically I haven't been able to do that. We can now. >> So I've got to ask you, so let's get down and dirty on Informatica, 'cause first of all I think instrumentation of everything now is a reality, I think people now are warming up to certainly in levels, super hot to like I realize it's a transformation area. What are you guys saying to customers? Because they're kind of drowning in the data, one. Two, they are maybe held back, 'cause of HIPAA and other things, now it's time to act, so the art of the possible things are now possible, damn I got to get a plan, so they're hustling around to put a plan together, architecture, plan, what do you guys pitch to customers? What is the value proposition that you go in, and take us through an example, a use case of a day in the life of your role with customers. >> So I have the best job in Informatica. I get to go out and meet with senior customer executive teams and talk about data, how they're going to use data, and how we can help them do it. So it's the best job in the company. But if you look at the typical pitch, we start out, we first we get them to agree with the principle, centralizing control is dead, being able to manage data as an enterprise asset in a decentralized fashion with customer self service is the future reality. And everybody universally says yep, we get it, we agree. >> John: Next. (laughs) Check. >> But then we talk about what does that actually mean? And it's amazing how at every step in my presentation, the 20 questions always are the same, it comes down to well how do we control that? How do we control that? >> Peter: How do we manage it? >> So you start with, you think of this idea that says hey, decentralized data, customer self service, you got to have a data catalog. Well enterprise information catalog is a perfect solution. If you don't know where your data assets are and who's using them, you cannot manage data as an asset >> And they're comfortable with that because that's the old mindset of the warehouse like that big fenced in organization, but now they say okay I can free it up >> Yes. >> And manage it with a catalog and get the control I need. >> That's right and so the first piece is the catalog, well then the minute you say to people the catalog is the way to get value from your data, there's somebody in every room that says ooh that value represents risk. You're letting people see data and make data easy to find, that can't possibly be good, it's risky. Well then we have secure at source was the opposite product from enterprise information catalog that says here's the risk profile of all those data sources for HIPAA and protected health information so we got a great answer to that question, and then you look and you say well how do I fundamentally work with data differently and that's the idea of a data lake. Rather than making data hard to get in so it's easy to query which is the traditional enterprise data warehouse, and even people who do enterprise data warehousing well, little secret is, takes too long, costs too much, and it's not agile. >> Yeah. >> We're not suggesting for a second that a centralized repository, a trustworthy data governed within an inch of it's life so that it can be used broadly throughout the organization without people hurting themselves is not good, it can't be the only place to work with data. Takes too long, costs too much, and it's not agile. What you want is the data lake that says put all the data that you care about in a place, big data, IOT data, data that you don't know what you're going to use, and apply effort at query time only to the data that you care about. >> And we're always talking about cleanliness and hygiene yesterday versus heart surgeon, different roles in an organization, the big fear that we hear from customers, we talk to on The Cube, I want to get your thoughts and then reaction of this is that my data lakes turn into a data swamp. Because it's just, I'm not using it, it's just sitting there, it gets stale, I'm not managing it properly, I'm not vectoring it into the right apps in real time, moving it around, your reaction to that objection. >> Early days of the data lake, absolutely data swamp because we didn't have the tools, people weren't using them correctly, so just because you put it in a data lake doesn't mean that it's ungoverned. It doesn't mean you don't want to put the catalog on it so you know what's there and how to use it. It doesn't mean you don't want to have end to end transparency and visibility from the data consumer to the data source because transparency is actually the first level of government. That's what provides confidence. It's not agreeing on a single version of the truth and making sure the data's right. It's just simply allowing the transparency and so when you have a data lake with a catalog, with intelligent data lake for self service data preparation, with the ability to see end to end what's happening with that data, I don't care that it's not been governed if I can inspect it easily and quickly to validate that your assumptions are reasonable, 'cause this is the biggest thing in healthcare. We can't handle the new data, the IOT data, and the scope of things we want to do that we haven't thought about the old way. >> Yeah we have limited time. >> One last question. Framingham Heart Study has shown us that healthcare data ages differently than most other data. How do we anticipate what data's going to be important today and what data's going to be important in the future? Given that we're talking about people and how they age over time. >> So the key thing with that and we talked about it earlier, you can't analyze data that you threw away. And so a big part of this is if the data might potentially be of interest, stage it, and don't put it in an archive, don't put it someplace in the database backup, it's got to be staged and accessible, which is the data lake. >> And ready. >> And ready, you've got to, and you can't have distance between it. Somebody can't have to go and request it. They need to be able to work on it. And that's the revolution that really is represented by data 3.0, we finally can afford to save data, huge amounts of data, that we don't know we care about. Because somebody may care about it in the future. >> Peter: That's right. >> Great Richard, great commentary, great insight, and appreciate you coming on The Cube and sharing what's update in the healthcare obviously super important again they're running like business, a lot of optimization, a lot of changes going on, you guys are doing some good work there, congratulations data 3.0 strategy. Hopefully that'll permeate down to the healthcare organizations and hopefully the user experience, me, the patient when I go in, I want to be in and out >> Peter: Wellness. >> Of the hospital and also preventative which I'm trying to do a good job on but too many Cube interviews keeping me busy, I'm going to have a heart attack on The Cube, no I'm only kidding (laughs) Great coverage here at Informatica World in San Francisco, I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris, more live coverage of day two at Informatica World, Cube, we'll be right back stay with us.