>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Austin, Texas at DockerCon 2017. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the two days of live broadcast, Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program, John Gossman, who is the lead architect with Microsoft Azure. Also part of the keynote this morning. John, had the pleasure of interviewing you two years ago. We went though the obligatory wait, Microsoft Open Source, Linux, and Windows and everything living together. It's like cats and dogs. But thanks so much for joining us again. >> Yeah well as I was saying, that's 14 years in cloud years. So it's been a lot of change in that time, but thanks for having me again. >> Yeah. Absolutely. You said it was three years that you've been working Microsoft and Docker together. 21 years in it, dog or cloud years, if you will. I think Docker is more whales and turtles, as opposed to the dogs. But enough about the cartoons and the animals. Why don't you give our audience just a synopsis of kind of the key messages you were trying to get across in the keynote this morning. >> Okay well the very simple message is that what we enabled this new technology, Hyper-V isolation for Linux containers, is the ability to run Linux containers just seamlessly on Windows using the normal Docker experience. It's just Docker run, BusyBox or Docker run, MySQL, or whatever it is, and it just works. And of course if you know a little more technical detail about containers, you realize that one of the reasons that the containers are the way there are is that all the containers on a box normally share a kernel. And so you can run a Canonical, Ubuntu on user space, on a Red Hat kernel or vice versa. But Windows and Linux kernels are too different. So if you want to run Windows container, it's not going to run easily on Linux and vice versa. And you can still get this effect, if you want it, by also using a virtual machine. But then you've got the management overhead of managing the virtual machine, managing the containers, all the complexity that that involves. You have to get a VHD or AMI or something like that, as well a container image and you lose a lot of that sort of experience. >> John, first of all, I have to say congratulations to Microsoft. When the announcement was made that Windows containers were going to be developed, I have to say that I and most of my peers were a little bit skeptical as to how fast that would work; the development cycle. Probably because we have lots of experience and it's always okay, we understand how many man years this usually takes, but you guys hit and were delivering, got through the Betas, so can you speak to us about where we are with Windows containers? And one of the things people want to kind of understand is, compared to like Linux containers, how do you expect the adoption of that now that it's generally available to roll out? Do I have to wait for the next server refresh, OS refresh, how do you expect your customers to adopt and embrace? >> Well we were able to get this to work so quickly because if you remember, Docker didn't actually invent containers. They took a bunch of kernel primitives that were in Linux and put a really great user experience on it. And I'm not taking anything away from Docker by doing that, because oftentimes in the technology industry, it's easy to make something that was complicated, powerful, but not easy to use. And Windows already had a lot of those kernel primitives, same sort of similar kind of kernel primitives built-in. They had to take out Java javax, I think when Windows 2000. And so it was kind of the same experience. We took the Docker engine, so we got the API, we were using the open source project, so we have complete compatibility. And then we just had to write a basically a new back-end, and that's why it was able to come up rather quickly. And now we're in a mode you know, Windows server updates things more incrementally, than we did in the past. So this will just keep on improving as time goes on. >> Okay, one of the other big announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit. And it was open source project, we actually saw Solomon move it to open source during the keynote, when they laid out the ecosystems for it like IBM, HPE, INTEL and Microsoft. So what does that mean for Microsoft? You are now a provider of Linux? How are we supposed to look at this? >> Yeah. So we're working with all the Linux vendors. So if you saw our blog about the work we did today. We also have announcements from SUSE and Red Hat and Canonical, and the usual people. And one of the things I said in this box, I said look there's the new model is that you could choose both the Linux container that you want and the kernel that you want to run it on. And we're open to all sorts of things. But we have been working with Docker for a long time. On making sure that there was a great experience for running Docker for Linux on Windows. This thing called Docker for Windows. Which they developed. And we have been helping out. And that's basically an earlier generation of this same Linux technology. So it's just the next step on that journey. >> Microsoft's pretty well recognized to have a robust solution for a hybrid cloud. Cause of course you go your Azure stack, that you're putting on premises. There's Azure itself, it's really the cloud first methodology that you've been rolling through and you offer as a service. Containers really anywhere in your environment, baked in anywhere? How should we be thinking about this going forward? >> Yeah absolutely. I mean one of the points of containers in general, one of the attractive parts of containers is that they run everywhere. Including from your laptop, to the various clouds to bare metal, to virtualized environments. And so we have both things. We want Windows containers, where we're the vendor of the container. We want those to work everywhere. And we also, as the vendors of Azure and Azure Stack, and just server system center, and other older enterprise technologies. We want containers to work on all those things. So both directions. I mean, that's kind of the world we're in now, where everything works everywhere. >> Can you square you container strategy as reflected in your partnership with Docker, With your serverless computer strategy for Azure Functions? I'm trying to get a sense for Microsoft's overall approach to running containers as it relates to the Azure strategy. >> In some ways, you can think of this as a serverless functions mode as a step even further. You just deploy a hardware machine and install everything on it. Next thing, you'd have a virtual machine and you install everything. And then you put your code and all its affinities to the container. And with serverless with Azure Functions, it's like, well why do any of that? Just write a function. Now at the same time, we think there's lots of reasons. Under the covers, all of these past systems, going all the way back, that's how Docker started. Run a container underneath the covers. in the same place, it's not literally a Docker container, but the same place down in functions has that sort of a capability. And we're certainly thinking about how Docker can handle for work in that serverless model in the future. >> See one of my core focus areas for Wikibon as an analyst, is looking at developers going more deeply into deep learning and machine learning. To what extent is Microsoft already taking its core tools in that area and containerizing them and enabling access to that functionality through serverless APIs and functions and so forth in Azure? On the serverless stuff, I'm not on the serverless team. I'm not really qualified to explain everything on their end. I do know that the CNT team has a Docker container that they put the bits in. There's the Azure Machine Learning team who's been working a lot of these sort of technologies. I'm just not the right guy to answer that question. >> As you talk to your customers, where does this fit in to the whole discussion? Do containers just happen in the background? Is it helping them with some of their application modernization? Does it help Microsoft change the way we architect things? What's kind of the practitioner, your ultimate end user viewpoint on this? Well cloud adoption is at all points on the curve simultaneously. Even the inside of individual companies. So everybody's in it, in a kind of different place. The two models that I think people have really concentrated on, is on one end, the path at least is infrastructure where you just bring your existing applications and another one would be PADS, where you rewrite the application for a more modern architecture, more cloud centric architecture. And containers fit kind of squarely in the middle of that in some respects. Because in many ways and primarily, I see Docker containers as a better form of infrastructure. It is an easier, more portable way to get all your dependency together and run them everywhere. So a lot of lift-and-shift works is in there, but once you're in containers, it is also easier to break the components apart and put them back together into a more microservice oriented cloud-native model. >> I think that's a great point because we've been having this discussion about okay, there's applications that I'm rewriting, but then I've got this huge amount of applications that I need some way to have the bridge to the future, if you will. Because I don't know, there's one analyst firm that calls it bimodal, but to customers we talked to in general, we don't segment everything we do. I have application type infrastructure and I need to be able to live across multiple environments. Wrapping versus refactoring. >> And they do both. But I always prefer to, you know some people come in and they talk about legacy and they're developers. I'm a developer, right? Developers we always want to rewrite everything. And there's a time and place to doing that. But the legacy applications are required for those applications to work. And if you don't need to refactor that thing, if you can get it into a container or virtual machine or however, and get it into that more environment, and then work around it, re-architect it, it's a whole different set of approaches. It's a good conversation to have with a customer to understand. I've seen people go both too slow, and I see people refactor their whole thing and then try to figure out how to get it to work again. >> So Microsoft has a gigantic user base, What kind of things are you doing to help educate and help the people that had certification or jobs were running exchange to move towards this new kind of world and cloud in general. And containers specifically maybe. >> Well we have a ton of stuff. I'm not familiar with the certification programs myself, but we certainly have our Developer Evangelism team, out going out training people. We've been trying to improve our documentation. And we have a bunch of guidance on cloud migration and things like that. There is a real challenge and it's the same problem for our customers and anybody looking at cloud. Is to re-educate people who have been working in some of their previous moment. Which is another reason again, where the lift and shift stuff is, you can make it more like it is on Premise, or more like it is on your laptop. It makes that journey a little easier. But we're indefinitely in one of those points where the industry is changing so fast, I personally have to spend a lot of time, What's going on? What happened this day? What's new today coming to the conference, I learn new things. >> You bring up a huge challenge that we see. I kind of like Docker has their two delivery models. They've got the Community Edition, CE, and the Enterprise Edition, EE. An EE feels more like traditional software. It's packaged, it's on the regular release cycle. CE is, Solomon talked this morning about the edge pieces. Can I keep up with every six months, or can I have stuff flying at me? People inside of Docker can't keep up with the pace of change that much. What do you see, I mean, I think back to the major Windows operating system releases that we used to, like the Intel tick-tock on releases. It's the pace of change is tough for everyone, how are you helping, you know with you product development and customers, you know, take advantage of things and try to keep up with this rapidly changing ecosystem? >> This is a constant challenge with physically software now. We can't afford to only ever ship things every three years. And at the same time there's stability. So with the major products like Windows, we have these stable branches, where things are pretty much the same going along. And then there's an inactive branch Where things are coming down and the changes and the updates are coming. I'd say the one biggest difference I'd say, but you know I've been in this industry for a long time. So say between the '90s and now, is that we have so much of it is actually off servers. Where when something crashes, we get a crash dump and we can debug the thing and so going out in the field we have much more capability in finding what's going on in the customer base than we did 20 years ago. But other than that, it's just a really hard challenge to both satisfy people that can't have anything to change, and everything changing. >> John you've been watching this for a number of years, what do we still have left to do? We come back to DockerCon next year, you know, we'll have more people, it'll be a bigger event, but you know, what's the progression, what kind of things are you looking forward to the ecosystem and yourself and Docker, knocking down and moving customers forward with? >> The first year was kind of like, what is this thing? Second year was now, the individual Docker container is there now how do you orchestrate them and next step is how do we network these things. And there's an initiative now to standardize on storage, for storage systems and docker containers. Monitoring. There's a lot of things that are still to do. We have a long ways to go. On the other side, I think this other track, which we talked about today, which is that virtualization and containers are going to blur and mend, and I don't think that seven years from now we're going to be talking about containers or virtual machines, we're just going to be saying it's some unit of compute and then there's so much in knobs and tweaks that you want it a little more isolated, you want it a little less isolated, you trade off some performance for something else. >> Business capability, in other words the enterprise architecture framework of business capabilities, will be paramount in terms of composing applications or microservices. From what I understand you saying. >> Yeah, I think where we're really going to get to is a model where people we get past this basics of storage of networking and start working up the next level So things like Helm or DCS Universe, or Storm Stacks, where you can describe more of an application, it just keeps moving up. And so I think in seven years, we won't be talking so much about this, it'll some other disruption, right? But there won't be talking about this virtualization layer as much as building apps again. >> On a visual composition of microservices, what is Microsoft doing, you say that you long ago entered Microsoft during the Vizio acquisition, what's Microsoft doing to enable more visual composition across these functions, across orchestrated team-like environments going forward? >> I think there is some work going on. It's not my area again, on visual composition, despite the fact that I came from Vizio. I kind of got away from that space >> Well I'm betraying my age. I remember that period. >> All right. Well John, always a pleasure catching up with you and thank you so much for joining us for this segment. Look forward to watching Microsoft going forward. >> Thanks. Thank you for having me. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE.

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman joining with my co-host Jim Kobielus. We're here with theCUBE at DockerCon 2017. When I talked to John Furrier, he said Stu, at DockerCon, we're going to get Solomon Hykes, the founder. We're going to get Ben Golub, the CEO. And we're also, of course, going to get Marianna Tessle, who is the EVP of Strategic Development. Marianna, thank you for having us back again, we've been having a great event. How is everything with you? >> Thank you first of all, it's great. This is the second day of DockerCon. I think we had a great set of announcement yesterday, and an amazing set of announcement today as well. It's really going great. You know I have been roaming the exhibit hall, and actually a couple of people said this is one of the best shows they have been part of, and this very engaged audience is great to hear. >> From the keynote yesterday, the word that stuck out to me is really scaling. We talk about scaling employment, scaling the ecosystem, and the show itself. I was at that first DockerCon when we were wedged into that hotel room, as Ben joked. We had 100 more people than we told the Fire Marshall. Because it was tight. TheCUBE is usually a little bit smaller footprint than we have at some other shows. But, Austin, first of all, you pick great locations. I mean, San Francisco, Seattle, here. I'm looking forward to... Have we announced yet where next year's is? >> I don't think we've announced it yet. Usually it happens in the afternoon. >> Here in Austin. Talk to us a little about some of those announcements and stuff that you're excited about with growing the ecosystem. >> You know, I'm going to continue the theme you started with scale, and obviously like you said, a lot of things are changing, and scaling. One of the things we have noticed more and more are companies and enterprises have really started to use us more in scale and more in production, more apps, more of that going on. One of the trends we've noticed that actually Ben covered on stage today is that there's not just the leading edge of development and all new apps, web apps, but actually, we are starting to see more of traditional apps coming on board as well. More traditions Ops saying, I want those benefits as well. I do not want to go all the way to the extreme of re-writing my code, and going to microservices. But I can reap a lot of the benefits from Docker rising and putting our tools on top. So we're actually seeing more and more of that. And more and more companies. >> The discussion with Solomon, we talked this morning. He said, Oh, I don't know what Lego set we are. And I said, You know that green, flat piece that you can build everything on top of, so you can have your spaceset, your castle, and all the pieces there. You want to be a platform that can build. One of the announcements you guys had today, it's the modernized traditional applications. Maybe you can walk us through a little bit what that means, you know that mix of microservices verses traditional apps. How you guys see yourself participating in a customer's journey. >> Right. So, when we call this program, by the way it has a nickname, MTA. It's like you said, what we've seen is customers and users that want to have benefit across the board was if they write new code as they have more traditional apps with traditional stacks. What we came up with is a way for you to move from a more traditional to the new and Dockerizing really quickly. One of the things we also announced today, is a go-to market and a program helping customers to do that. We have great partners we announced today and I'm sure we're going to have even more, whether it's Microsoft, Avalon, HPE, and Cisco. What we're going to basically provide is a way for you to very quickly start seeing the benefits. Taking the traditional app, and within days, like five days, you should be able to get it in a modern state and start seeing the benefits from that. It's something that we're going to encourage customers to do very quickly and see the benefits. In fact, we had a customer today, Noran Trust, who's already been doing that, talking about the benefits they've been seeing from this program. >> Marianna, in terms of developer enablement, that's everything to getting Dockerizing, a universal phenomenon for wrapping legacy systems, for refactoring existing code, for building greenfield applications. What will Docker do to continue to improve the experience of Project Moby as an enabler of your ISV ecosystem? Going forward, how do you see the experience of front-end in front of Moby evolving to enable very simplicity and speed of development? >> First of all, I have to say that one of the magic, or secret sauces of Docker is our user experience, and the way we made technologies sometimes that were already available super accessible and super useful for developers and ops and users. So I would say that's definitely something that we have the DNA to do. And a project in Moby, we see ISV's and companies, and it doesn't have to be a company, it could be like users, a company that can come in and collaborate and really create a new component, or a new project from what we're going to put there, and hopefully others as well is a whole set of these Lego building blocks they can assemble. >> Are there any plans of Dockers to provide task-oriented skins or experiences on Moby for different roles, different developer roles associated with particular projects, you know, task, or wrapping a legacy system is a different task, obviously, from developing a greenfield containerized application. So to an extend, will you evolve the tool to enable more task oriented role specific interfaces? >> I would say as far as Moby, and across the company, we do have this realization that it could be that developers started to use Docker first, but actually Ops, and even like we talked about, traditional IT, it's pretty prevalent. So our thought is really to cater to all of these audiences, kind of understand, have a conversation with them and understand what exactly they need and what would make them more productive. An example of what I mentioned with the MTA program, the Modernized Traditional Apps, that one is targeted more towards an Ops audience. Different things we do, we try to understand our audience and engage with them, and see what's going to make them most productive. Both in terms of tool sets and in terms of how we bring it to them. >> Right, right. >> Marianna, we had the opportunity to have some of the partner keynote speakers on theCUBE, John Gossman on from Microsoft yesterday, we had Mark Cavage on from Oracle, here. There's a lot going on. Maybe give our audience a little flavor as to some of the other partner activity going on that we might have missed if we weren't watching close. >> I think we had the same conversation last year, just explaining how important it is for us that we work well with our ecosystem. It's a big part of our plan and strategy, and again confirmation that customers want to use choice, different things, that we're not alone in the world, and we really want to engage with a vast ecosystem. So you saw from Cloud providers to a more on-prem infrastructure to ISV's to networking providers, storage providers. Like a whole understanding and way to be a full platform, we really need to understand how to integrate and how to engage with that ecosystem, and how to help customers have benefits of the entire thing combined. So we've been really looking at who are the different leaders; Sometimes customers take us there, they're like, hey please partner with this company or that company. Understanding mapping of what is needed, and starting from Cloud, infrastructure, network, storage, management, monitoring, security, all the way to ISV's. I would, since you brought up that fact that Mark was here, Mark from Oracle. I do want to talk about that because I think that is maybe even a bit new and unique. Another thing that we announced today, the fact that we have Oracle, Dockerizing their apps and putting them in Docker store and that is big, and again, to us that is obviously big, but again, big for user. It's a very easy way to get software you really need. And not only that, we announced several weeks ago, a certification program. The nice thing about that, if something is certified in store, you can really use that with a lot of trust. You know it's been tested, it's secure. That we made sure that it followed best practices. We made sure that our support engagement with the publisher. Again, geared toward enterprises that really want to have that confidence of downloading something from the store and just using it. Again, Oracle is kind of groundbreaking in putting their software there, and we're very excited about that and we think there is going to be more to come. We really are looking forward to this being an amazing service for our users who want to really start from components that exist and the components that they can trust and be productive very quickly. >> I'm curious, how do you think of the Docker store in relation to things like the Amazon Marketplace, or you know, many of your other partners have their own piece. There really is no kind of enterprise app store today so what do you guys want to own? How do you integrate with partners as you look at that develop over time? >> For us, Docker Store started as an enabler as we saw more and more need from users to to basically, Hey, I want.. Let's say since I talked about Oracle I want to use a database. I don't want to go and Dockerize it again. If somebody already did it and they're already prepared, they already went through it, why wouldn't I just re-use it? So the fact that you can put things in this building block and then move them around, it actually enables the idea that you can re-use the same component between different users. So basically you have here something you can do once, and many people can benefit. So that's the benefit we see. It started with official images long ago. We saw unbelievable traction for it. Users really love it, it makes them productive very quickly. We wanted to expand it to a wider set of ISV's, a wider set of components, a wider set of apps, and make them available. We, right now, see it as more of an enabler and again it's one of those things, listening to our users, listening to our customers, we saw that that's one of the things that will make them productive really quickly. >> One of the things we saw in abundance at DockerCon this year is customers of Visa, MetLife, and so forth, up on stage, talking about how they are using Docker in their business for actual live applications. In terms of partners, are you focusing on particular vertical industries in terms of partnership with ISV's and VAR's, particular geographies? Give us a sense for where you're going in terms of diversification of geographies and industries, and in terms of your focus on partnerships. >> Yeah, and again different parts of the stack require different kinds of partnerships. Like on the South end of the stack on the infrastructure, we're looking for partners that either provide on-prem or Cloud infrastructure, or they can provide a set of plug-ins that integrate with us and a set of tools that can be used with Docker to complete and enhance the overall experience of users using Docker. So that's kind of one set of partnerships that started from hardware vendors, to different plug-ins. On the North side of it as we look at it, we just talked about the fact that we have... >> Jim: Top of the application, the application services end of the staff is the North, right? >> Exactly, and all the way to the content. What you actually put inside and what you run. >> Data, so forth and so on. >> Exactly. We'll form a set of partnerships there and making sure that those components are available in store, those components are Dockerized, that companies can really use that, and obviously Microsoft is a huge partner for us in the OS and as your others as well. >> The storage vendors, like Veritask and so forth, there is a fair amount of data inside the ecosystem that really you're going to continue to develop a partnership. >> Absolutely, Adera, Quadera, you've seen a lot, and we continue partner and seeing what's needed there. Understanding we are trying to predict where customers are today, where they're going to maybe, what they will need a year or two from now, and be ready for that. >> Marianna, that leads me to my final question. We know where you're going to be in Europe, you won't tell us yet the location of the North American show for next year, but as you look at the ecosystem, how do you see that developing? When we sit down with you a year from now, what do you hope to have as the progress? >> As I look at the exhibit hall, I am hoping that we're going to see a bigger exhibit hall with every single DockerCon. And, not just for fun, but really, it kind of indicates the collaboration we have with the ecosystem. I would like us to be known as a trusted and productive partner for our ecosystem. And a trusted and productive partner for our customer. That kind of knows to work together with all these contingencies to have amazing results. Like you said, we seen customers on stage, we seen the press releases of people say it took me months to get VM going, it takes me seconds to get this now going. So you see the kind of productivity and we would like to enhance it even more and get there faster. >> Absolutely, Marianna, always a pleasure to catch up with you. We've got a few more interviews left, two days of live coverage, for Jim Kobielus, and I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. 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