>> Live, from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, here at Cisco Live! 2019 in Barcelona, Spain, I'm Stu Miniman, happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, but someone I've known for many years, Jason Edelman, who is the founder of Network to Code. Jason, great to see you, and thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me, Stu. >> Alright, Jason, let's first, for our audiences, this is your first time on the program, give us a little bit about your background, and what led to you being the founder of Network to Code. >> Right, so my background is that of a traditional network engineer. I've spent 10+ years managing networks, deploying networks, and really, acting in a pre-sales capacity, supporting Cisco infrastructure. And it was probably around 2012 or 13, working for a large Cisco VAR, that we had access to something called Cisco onePK, and we kind of dove into that as the first SDK to control network devices. We have today iPhone SDKs, SDKs for Android, to program for phone apps, this was one of the first SDKs to program against a router and a switch. And that, for me, was just eye-opening, this is kind of back in 2013 or so, to see what could be done to write code in Python, Seer, Java, against network devices. Now, when this was going on, I didn't know how to code, so I kind of used that as the entrance to ramp up, but that was, for me, the pivot point. And then, the same six-week period, I had a demo of Puppet and Ansible automated networking devices, and so that was the pivot point where it was like, wow, realizing I've spent a career architecture and designing networks, and realizing there's a challenge in operating networks day to day. >> Yeah, Jason, dial back. You've some Cisco certifications in your background? >> Sure, yes, CCIE, yeah. >> Yeah, so I think back, when this all, OpenFlow, and before we even called it Software-Defined Networking, you were blogging about this type of stuff. But, as you said, you weren't a coder. It wasn't your background, you were a network guy, and I think the Network to Code, a lot of the things we've been looking at, career-wise, it's like, does everyone need to become coders? How will the tools mature? Give us a little bit about that journey, as how you got into coding and let's go from there. >> Yeah, it was interesting. In 2010, I started blogging OpenFlow-related, I thought it was going to change the world, saw what NICRO was doing at the time, and then Big Switch at the time, and I just speculated and blogged and really just envisioned this world where networks were different in some capacity. And it took a couple years to really shed light on management and operations of networking, and I made some career shifts. And I remember going back to onePK, at the time, my manager then, who is now our CEO at Network to Code, he actually asked, well, why don't you do it? And it was just like, me? Me, automate our program? What do you mean? And so it was kind of like a moment for me to kind of reflect on what I can do. Now, I will say I don't believe every network engineer should know how to code. That was my on-ramp because of partnership with Cisco at the time, and learning onePK and programming languages, but that was for me, I guess, what I needed as that kick in the butt to say, you know what? I am going to do this. I do believe in the shift that's going to happen in the next couple years, and that was where I kind of just jumped in feet first, and now we are where we are. >> Yeah, Jason, some great points there. I know for myself, I look at, Cisco's gone through so much change. A year ago, up on stage, Cisco's talking about their future is as a software company. You might not even think of us as networking first, you will talk to us about software first. So that initial shift that you saw back in 2010, it's happening. It's a different form than we might have thought originally, and it's not necessarily a product, but we're going through that shift. And I like what you said about how not everybody needs to code, but it's this change in paradigms and what we need to do are different. You've got some connections, we're here in the DevNet Zone. I saw, at the US show in Orlando last year, Network to Code had a small booth, there were a whole bunch of startups in that space. Tell us how you got involved into DevNet, really since the earliest days. >> Yes, since the early days, it was really pre-DevNet. So the emergence of DevNet, I've seen it grow into, the last couple years, Cisco Live! And for us, given what we do at Network to Code, as a network-automation-focused company, we see DevNet in use by our clients, by DevNet solutions and products, things like, mentioned yesterday on a panel, but DevNet has always-on sandboxes, too. One of the biggest barriers we've seen with our clients is getting access to the right lab gear on getting started to automate. So DevNet has these sandboxes always on to hit Nexus API or Catalyst API, right? Things like that. And there's really a very good, structured learning path to get started through DevNet, which usually, where we intersect in our client engagement, so it's kind of like post-DevNet, you're kind of really showing what's possible, and then we'll kind of get in and craft some solutions for our clients. >> Yeah, take us inside some of your clients, if you can. Are most of them hitting the API instead of the COI now when they're engaging? >> Yeah, it's actually a good question. Not usually talked about, but the reality is, APIs are still very new. And so we actively test a lot of the newer APIs from Cisco, as an example. IOS XE has some of the best APIs that exist around RESTCONF, NETCONF, modeled from the same YANG models, and great APIs. But the truth is that a lot of our clients, large enterprises that've been around for 20+ years, the install base is still largely not API-enabled. So a lot of the automation that we do is definitely SSH-based. And when you look at what's possible with platforms, if it is something like a custom in Python, or even an ANSEL off the shelf, a lot of the integrations are hidden from the user, so as long as we're able to accomplish the goal, it's the most important thing right now. And our clients' leaderships sometimes care, and it's true, right? You want the outcome. And initially, it's okay if we're not using the API, but once we do flip that switch, it does provide a bit more structure and safety for automating. But the install base is so large right now that, to automate, you have to use SSH, and we don't believe in waiting 'til every device is API-enabled because it'll just take a while to turn that base. >> Alright, Jason, a major focus of the conference this year has been around multi-cloud. How's that impacting your business and your customers? >> So, it's in our path as a company. Right now, there's a lot of focus around multi-cloud and data center, and the truth is, we're doing a lot of automation in the Campus networking space. Right, automating networks to get deployed in wiring closets and firewalls and load balancers and things like that. So from our standpoint, as we start planning with our clients, we see the services that we offer really port over to multi-cloud and making sure that with whatever automation is being deployed today, regardless of toolset, and look at a tool chain to deploy, if it's a CI/CD Pipeline for networking, be able to do that if you're managing a network in the Campus, a data center network, or multi-cloud network, to make sure we have a uniform-looking field to operations, and doing that. >> Alright, so Jason, you're not only founder of your company, you're also an author. Maybe tell us about the, I believe it's an update, or is it a new book, that recently got out. >> Yes, I'm a co-author of a book with Matt Oswalt and Scott Lowe, and it's an O'Reilly book that was published last year. And look, I'm a believer in education, and to really make a change and change an industry, we have to educate, and I think the book, the goal was to play a small part in really bringing concepts to light. As a network engineer by trade, there's fundamental concepts that network engineers should be aware of, and it could be basics and a lot of these, it could be Python or Jinja templating in YAML and Git and Linux, for that matter. It's just kind of providing that baseline of skills as an entrance into automation. And once you have the baseline, it kind of really uncovers what's possible. So writing the book was great. Great opportunity, and thank you to Matt and Scott for getting involved there. It really took a lot of the work effort and collaborated with them on it. >> Want to get your perception on the show, also. Education, always a key feature of what happens at the show. Not far from us is the Cisco bookshop. I see people getting a lot of the big Cisco books, but I think ten years ago, it was like, everybody, get my CCIE, all my different certifications updated, here. Here in the DevNet Zone, a lot of people, they're building stuff, they're building new pieces, they're playing in the labs, and they're doing some of these environments. What's your experience here at the show? Anything in particular that catches your eye? >> So, I do believe in education. I think to do anything well, you have to be educated on it. And I've read Cisco Press books over the years, probably a dozen of them, for the CCIE and beyond. I think when we look at what's in DevNet, when we look at what's in the bookstore, people have to immerse themselves into the technology, and reading books, like the learning labs that are here in the DevNet Zone, the design sessions that are right behind us. Just amazing for me to have seen the DevNet Zone grow to be what it is today. And really the goal of educating the market of what's possible. See, even from the start, Network to Code, we started as doing a lot of training, because you really can't change the methodology of network operations without being aware of what's possible, and it really does kind of come back to training. Whatever it is, on-demand, streaming, instructor-led, reading a book. Just glad to see this happen here, and a lot more to do around the industry, in the space around community involvement and development, but training, a huge part of it. >> Alright, Jason, want to give you the final word, love the story of network engineer gone entrepreneurial, out of your comfort zone, coding, helping to build a business. So tell us what you see, going forward. >> So, we've grown quite a bit in the past couple years. Right now, we're over 20 engineers strong, and starting from essentially just one a couple years ago, was a huge transformation, and seeing this happen. I believe in bringing on A-players to help make that happen. I think for us as a business, we're continuing to grow and accelerating what we do in this network automation space, but I just think, one thought to throw out there is, oftentimes we talk about lower-level tools, Python, Git, YAML, a lot of new acronyms and buzzwords for network engineers, but also, the flip side is true, too. As our client base evolves, and a lot of them are in the Fortune 100, so large clients, looking at consumption models of technology's super-important, meaning is there ITSM tools deployed today, like a ServiceNow, or Webex teams, or Slack for chat integration. To really think through early on how the internal customers of automation will consume automation, 'cause it really does us no good, Cisco, vendors, or clients no good, if we deploy a great network automation platform, and no one uses it, because it doesn't fit the culture of the brand of the organization. So it's just, as we continue to grow, that's really what's top of mind for us right now. >> Alright, well Jason, congratulations on everything that you've done so far, wish you the best of luck going forward, and thank you so much, of course, for watching. We'll have more coverage, three day, wall-to-wall, here at Cisco Live! 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, and thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

(soft music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. Presenting, Accelerating Automation with DevNet, brought to you by Cisco. >> And welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We have our ongoing coverage of the Cisco DevNet event. It's really Accelerating with Automation and Programmability in the new normal. And we know the new normal is definitely continuing to go. We've been doing this since the middle of March and now we're in October. So, we're excited to have our next guest. He's Thomas Scheibe, he is the vice president of product management for data center for Cisco, Thomas, great to see you. >> Hey, good to see you too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and truly run it in normal as everybody can see on our background. >> Exactly, so, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light switch moment, which was, you know, no time to prep, and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you got the kids home, you got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls and their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the network, you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16th hit and everybody had to go home? >> Well, (laughs) good point, hey, I do think we all appreciate the network much more than we used to do before. And then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls and zoom calls, but, you know, otherwise yes. What I do see actually is that as I said network becomes much more operas as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about agility and flexibility, these days we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, north to south and east to west, as we see in the data center. >> Right. >> And touches as for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. >> Right, you know, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was (chuckles) some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office or are used to getting at school. >> Yeah, and I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning. We clearly talking about some of these trends and the way I look at this trend as being distributed data centers and having the ability to move your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while. And so, in a sense we prep was our normal we're prepping for. But as I said, resiliency just became so much more important. And, you know, one of the things I actually do a little preview for a blog I put out end of August around resiliency. If you didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we saw it in March this is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. And I think this is the new normal for some time being. >> Yeah, I think so. So, let's stick on that theme in terms of trends, right? The other great trend is public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. There's all types of variants on that theme, you had in that blog post about resiliency in data center cloud networking, data center cloud. You know, some people think, wait, it's kind of an either or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling both inner data center resiliency within multi data center resiliency within the same enterprise as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So, I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >> Yeah, no, it's actually, to me, it's really not counterintuitive because in the end, what I'm focusing on and the company is focusing on is what our customers want to do and need to do. And that's really, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multicloud. In the end, what it is is really the ability to have the flexibility, to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reason. You might played some compliance reasons depending on which customer segment you're after. If you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your syncs. And so I think in the end what an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like a cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move syncs as needed. But the logic context section which we see in the last couple of months accelerating is really this whole theme around digital transformation, which goes hand in hand than was the requirement on the IT side really do. And IT operations transformation, right? How IT operates. And I think that's really exciting to see, and this was excellent. Well, a lot of my discussions I was customized. What does it actually mean with respect to the IT organization? And what are the operational changes there's a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly accelerated going through? >> Right, and automation is in the title of the event. So, automation is an increasingly important thing, you know, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data. Either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera. And a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those you know, kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focused on and not stuff that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of automation. >> Yeah, that's a good point. And I said, TechLine, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from CloudReady, which is in most of our infrastructure is today to cloud-native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? It's like the CloudReady is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that our customers have, network infrastructure or the Nexus 9000, they're all CloudReady, right? And what this really means, you have APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled. And that's just the foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability, right? And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools and that's the whole range, right? This is where the IT operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speed, right? Some just, you know, I use these APIs and use normal tools that they have on a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for further saying, "I want to integrate this with some CMDB tools." Some go even further and saying, "This is like the cloud-native (indistinct), "Oh, I want to use, let's say, Red Hat Ansible, or I want to use (indistinct) Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I managed my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability plus the integration was relevant cloud-native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating in that motion. Which really then drives us how they run their IT operations. >> Right. >> And so that's a pretty exciting area to see. given as I said, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this. It's just not doing the operational change the process change is to actually get there. >> Right, and it's funny, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and they highlight what you just talked about, the cloud-native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API, you know, pulling data from all these technical applications. So, hey, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throats to choke out there and find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within very small units of time. So, that you don't lose that customer. You complete that transaction. They check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these things that are now created with cloud-native applications that just couldn't really do before. >> Now, you're absolutely right. And this is like, just as I said, I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers. How they want to actually structure the operation, right? One of the nice things around this whole automation plus cloud network tool integration is you actually opened us up not a sole automation training, not just to the network operations personnel, right? You also open it up and can use those for the SecOps person or for the DevOps person or for the CloudOps engineering team, right? Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, it's literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process? Do you want to have a more traditional process, you have to request, a network operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hands it back over. Or do you say, "Hey, maybe some of these security things, "I can hand over the SecOps team and they can "directly call these APIs, right?" Or even one step further, you can have the opportunity that the DevOps or the application team actually says, "Hey, I going to write a whole infrastructure as code "kind of a script or template, and I just execute, right?" And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles in our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it literally unleashes a lot of flexibility. How they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the IT operations processes. >> That's interesting, you know, 'cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right? Obviously changed software programming for the last 20 years. And I think, you know, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of DevOps versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, NetworkOps or, NetOps, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have kind of a fast changing dynamic kind of point of view versus a stick it in, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So, I wonder if you can, you can share how, kind of that DevOps attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is has impacted things at Cisco in the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >> Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? It's none of these is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it is just customer driven feedback. And yeah, we do have EU Network Operations Teams come to you saying, "Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute, "so, we might use this for Alpha Seven. "We want to use the same for networking." And so we made available all these integrations with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI and dc network controller or our multi site orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right. The other one as I mentioned that how she formed Tarco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. And so that is the motion we're in for over a year now. And another blog actually is out there we just posted saying, Yeah, all set what you can do. And then a parallel to this, right? Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training. And, you know, a little plucking I know probably part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. And the beauty of this is right. If you look at us, whether you're a NetOps person or a DevOps person or a SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. There's a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level, right? And there's simple things like sandbox environments where you can, you know, without stress try things out, snippets of code are there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous time people spend to learn. Quite frankly then, that's another side product of the suggestion when people say, "Oh man, and say, okay, online learning is the thing." So, these tools are used very heavily. >> Right. That's awesome 'cause you know, we've had Susie Leon a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team, right? Really built this DevNet thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right? Democratization is the access tool, taking it out of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work. And it can make the changes in an opening up to a software defined world where now it's application centric point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out in and out of these environments really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happened with public cloud and how they kind of changed the buying parameter, how they kind of changed the degree of difficulty to get project started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >> Yeah, I mean, again, I typically look at this more from a customer lens, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility, I want flexibility and I want resiliency, right? This is where we talk to a business owner what they're looking for. And then that translates into an IT operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. And that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this, right? And the enablement again is for different roles, right? You need to give sync services to the app developer and the platform team and the security team, right? To your point so the network can act at the same speed. But you also give tools to the network operations teams because they need to adjust then, they have the ability to react to some of these requirements, right? And it's not just automation, I said we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just for backup and recovery, and how do I extend into public clouds, right? And in the end that's a network connectivity problem, and we have solved as, we have meters available, we have integrations into AWS. We have integrations into Ajua to actually make this very easy from a network perspective to extend your private domains, private networks into which have private networks on these public clouds. So, from an app developer perspective, now it looks like it's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here, some of it might sit here. But it's really looking the same. And that's really in the end I said what a business looks at, right? They don't necessarily want to say, I need you to have something separate for this deployment or separate for that deployment. What they want is I need you to deploy something. I need to do this resilience. And the resilient way and an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools available that we support, but they're all open. They're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right? That everybody's using. So, you're not getting into this, "Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right? It's really democratization, I actually liked your term. >> Yeah, it's a great term and it's really interesting, especially with the APIs and the way everything is so tied together. That everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. And it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers in respond to, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So, it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure to really support kind of this app first point of view, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be. And enable this hyper fast development, hyper fast change in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. So, super important stuff. >> Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's kind of interesting because we started on the Cisco data center. It's where we started this probably six or seven years ago. When we named the application-centric, clearly a lot of these concepts evolved. But in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, this is what I want to do. And I need a service thinking on the networking side to expose services that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. And as I said, automation is a key foundation that we put in place. And our customers most of our customers at this point are on these products. They have all the capabilities there are. They can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them at this point. >> Well, it's good times for you because I'm sure you've seen all the memes in social media, right? What's driving your digital transformation is the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question. So, I don't think the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So, (indistinct) keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >> Yeah, I know, thanks for having me and again, yeah, if you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started? Cisco definitely is the place to go. It's, you know, fantastic, fantastic environment. And I highly recommend everybody, roll up the sleeves and you know, the best reasons you can have. >> Yeah, and we know once the physical events come back, we've been to DevNet Create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, really engaged community, sharing lots of information. It's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So, like Susie and the team have really built a great thing and we're happy to continue to cover it and eventually we'll be back face to face. >> Okay, (chuckles) look forward to that as well. >> All right, thanks. He's Thomas and I'm Jeff you're watching continuing coverage of CiscoDevNet Accelerating With Automation and Programmability. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)