>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of women transforming technology brought to you by VM Ware. >>Hi, Lisa Martin covering the fifth annual Women Transforming Technology event the first time it has been running in. So we're not coming to you from Palo Alto today coming to you from San Jose that I'm really excited to be talking with one of the event speakers, the founder of Happier Inc. Natalie Kogan. Natalie, Welcome to the Cube. Thanks so much for having me great to join you, even virtually. Exactly. And we're so fortunate that this I guess, if you can, if you can put a positive spin on it that this event happened when we have technology to still be able to enable as much interaction into a conversations or multiple way conversations as possible. And I know that you just did a session and a couple of days ago at the Digital Women transforming Allergy then But before we get into that, I saw your Ted talk was awesome and it's it's such a and the timeliness happier as a subject, couldn't be more, um, really pivotal. Tell me a little bit about what happier is what the inspiration Waas for your company? >>Definitely. So as many entrepreneurs. The inspiration was my personal journey. So I grew up in the former study on when I was 13 years old, my parents and I left everything and everyone behind and on a journey deep fried becomes refugees did the United States, and we had, as you can imagine, this is a really difficult experience with several months and refugee settlements in Europe before getting permission to come to the U. S. As refugees. And we started our journey and the projects that have destroyed, you know, on welfare and food stamps, very grateful to have an opportunity, but really, really tough. And I was really overwhelmed. That was a teenager. I spoke almost no English, and it was all overwhelming for me. And I kind of decided for myself that if I could just work really hard, achieve a lot of things become successful, then I would feel happy. And then I would just feel like honor this American dream. And for the next 20 years, I did work very, very hard. I did become very successful. I reached the price of four for success. I worked at Mackenzie, you know, the very well known consulting firm. By the age of 25 I was a managing director. We're a venture capital firm in New York. There's fewer than 6% women in venture capital. I started for different companies. I was part of Microsoft in the tech companies, and on the outside I was a feeding incredible stuff. And while I still am still proud of every single thing I achieved, whenever I would've David, I feel happy. And then it was just like the bubble just off, and I didn't feel happy anymore. And so I pushed myself harder and harder because I equated happiness for the achievement. Until, after two decades of doing this, I just couldn't do it anymore. I completely burnt out. Um, it was a really, really dark time in my life, and I knew I had to find a different way to live so that I could do work that's meaningful to me, but that I could also honor myself as a human and find joy in the present. And that led me to doing a lot of research in psychiatry and psychology and neuroscience and learning all of these incredible skills and practices that changed my life, starting with gratitude, which is how you cultivate join the present moment and really inspired me to leave. My career is a technology exact behind you found happier. We have the same mission since we've been founded and that is to help millions of people. Dr. In working in life by practicing science, back skills to cultivate there will be what are >>some of the scientific skills behind it and anything that that, you see that is even more pivotal in week eight of this work from home shelter in place? >>Yes. You know it It sounds really weird to say, but I feel like I've been preparing my full life. Do you help people right now? Because the skills that I have learned and I share are so essential. And >>the two that I >>would mention that I've been you know, we've been doing all these virtual sessions for teams and companies, and this is the ones I talk about. The first is the skill of gratitude. You know, gratitude is just very simply zooming in on something in your life that is good. That is positive. That is meaningful. and honoring it with your full appreciation. And you know, we're all right now going for so many challenges and we all have with all the negativity bias. And that means we're much more sensitive humans, anything that's negative and anything that positive and when we're going through a challenge, that negativity biases even more sensitive. So I know many folks right now are feeling really overwhelmed with their own feelings, but their own sense of loss and fear and with all the negative news and so practicing gratitude is essential because when you pause and you focus on the things >>in your life as it is, >>um, it's the challenge that you do appreciate. You remind your brain that the the challenge is not everything, that there is more to your life than what is going wrong. And that actually helps you to feel a little bit less stressed and anxious. And the other piece of science that I love to share is another skill that I talked about, which does Ah, and acceptance. Really. It simply means that we learn, look at how things are and how we feel with clarity instead of judgment, right and shorthand for judgment is should shouldn't feel like this. It shouldn't be this way, and that's having clarity. Allowing yourself to actually feel the difficult feelings helps us to move through them with a little bit more easy. I think it's one of the most, um, powerful mindset. A mindset shift that I learned on my journey is that happiness does not mean that you feel positive all the time. Happiness and emotional being means that we embrace all of our different feelings, including the difficult one, and we learned how to move through them with compassion. What are >>some of the things that when you're talking to the C suite executives that certain companies, whether it's bm ware or others, how our executive teams managers, where does the emotional health come in to the play? Knowing that these folks are managing teams, there are, we're seeing, as you point out, you know, the negativity vice. We're seeing the numbers of unemployment go up and up and up. Where is emotional health in terms of priority at the executive level? So this is >>one of the it, so it sounds really weird to say, but all of a sudden its like in this huge wave it already started, right? Some companies and we work with many of them already understood. The executives already understood that employee well, being an emotional health, it's not an extra. It is not optional. It is non negotiable. If you want your people to be at their best, there are literally mountains of research that show that when you cultivate, employees will be people are more productive, more resilient. More so, Cecil, they still better problems. But happened in this crisis is that the companies that were in a place where oh, this isn't really important or this is nice to have They are now recognizing that this is actually the most important thing that they could invest in for the success and longevity and survival of their businesses. And so I'm actually incredibly grateful for that. I don't like that off that we have to pay for it. But I am incredibly grateful that in this challenging time, more and more leaders there understanding that their own well being and the emotional health of their employees is non negotiable, not just for survival of their businesses, but if they want to be at their best and actually figure out how to thrive in whatever the future holds. >>And I'm glad to hear that, because the massive amount of uncertainty that we're all facing is unprecedented. You know, you can't pick up the phone and call your Brian mother and say, What did you guys do back in the day? And honestly, even if there had been something similar, 1918 hasn't been that long ago. People have nowadays are used to getting everything that you want on demand and also being able to get connected. Um, have good WiFi and be able to deliver what your clients what your what your bosses expect. The uncertainty factor that really weighs heavily on emotion is a huge inhibitor to productivity negotiation. Being worry >>if I can jump in uncertainty is the hardest thing for a brain to deal with. Our brains would rather know that something very bad will definitely happen. Then the B and uncertainty and I've actually been talking so much the companies and leaders about this, that this is literally the most stressed that we can experience because our brains number one job and I'm the founder of a company called Happier. But I always say that your brain number one job is not to keep you happy. It >>is to help you surmise. And so >>you're bring this constantly Evaluating your environment is the state of fruit or is a dangerous right fighter. But we know that was fun. What's happening right now is that the brain and I've come up with an answer. It doesn't know. Is it safe? Is it not safe? And I don't just mean in a macro way, um, macroeconomic way with the virus. I mean day to day. Things change day to day. We're juggling kids and family, and our businesses are changing so the brain doesn't give up. It's still tries really hard to figure out how to keep your state and that hard that working overtime the way it does that is by releasing stress hormones. So on top of just the very real challenges that so many folks have with worrying about loved ones juggling, working from home and family, there's also this chronic level of stress the world feeling because of uncertainty. >>Tell me a little bit about the interactive session that you held at WT through the other day. What were some of the common concerns or questions that you heard from the >>audience. Yeah, it's really interesting. It was such a great session, and we we had a lot of questions. We could not answer all the questions. Um, and I think that it means a lot to make it really thought about what they wanted to ask. There's a couple of things that emerged as common thread. The first was, How do I help someone in my life a colleague that I manage a loved one? How do I help them during this time if they're really overwhelmed or stressed? They're feeling sad, and we talked about the seal of acceptance, and we talked about how it might be our instincts to immediately cheer up the first thing. But actually, the bigger gift we can give them is to let them know that it's okay to not be okay and to honor their feelings with our effectiveness, and that actually helped them get through. So that was one of the themes that came up a lot. Another one was, with all of this uncertainty and the stress, like people would ask, I have trouble getting motivated like I love my job I love what I do, but I have so much trouble getting motivated, and that is very real. And the first thing that if anyone listening, feels this way, um, there's nothing wrong with you. Think about the amount of energy you're brain is using on all the stress. So no wonder you feel more fired and not as motivated. And so we talked about practicing self compassion, Um, in our expectations of ourselves and recognizing that we're undergoing something unprecedented and so difficult and then get motivated connecting the past on your to do list. Do How do they help someone else? Because that is where we connect first since the purpose, right, So that projects you're working on with your team or that presentation that you just can't get motivated to do. Ask yourself who does this help and actually answer the question? And in that moment, you connect yourself the purpose, which helps us be more resilient and more motivated. >>Get a notification or lack thereof is a huge problem, and I you know, you can't think it's not just may, not just you. It's got to be all the way up to the tops of companies that are really struggling because, as you say, the brain is so focused right now and busy and trying to assess things. And there are no concrete answers. But one of the things that you said I read your article in The Washington Post that you just did in the last week or so with your daughter and with my daughter. Yeah, with your daughter Mia. And the validation was Start on. And it it's so simple. But it's one of those things that I think often we think, Well, let me explain something and try to help you in that way without maybe stepping back and going well, actually help me. But what helps you? Are you seeing that that the executive leaders are also kind of stepping back and asking their teams? How are the ways that you want me to communicate with you? Or is that something that's happened? You know, I think that >>we are in an era of, um, human embracing leadership of, and I am so welcoming the era of leaders who are leading with their humanity first and are embracing the humanity of their people first. You know, I have this, um, actually working on my next book right now with this for leaders. And I have this concept, um, because I was a leader for so many years, and I always thought that I keep my emotions hidden, that emotions really didn't have anything to do with work. So I have this part that for leaders, they imagine you're holding a white board, and this is your emotional whiteboard on it are written your feeling. Whether you want to admit them or not, that team feels them, and it's the same for everyone on the team. So when you walk into a meeting, whether the virtual meeting or in person what is written on your emotional whiteboard, what are you feeling? And how are you approaching others? What do you want to be written on your emotional whiteboard, right? I think, as leaders, we would say, Well, I want to stay there, hear about you as my employees, that I want to hear how you're feeling. But think about are the actions you're taking aligning with with on your emotional whiteboard, right? And so listening and hearing, you know, I have this, um, came up with shorthand. Really? For me as a leader during a challenging time, and it's at C D. The first is acknowledge. Acknowledge your own challenges. Acknowledge your teams challenges, right. Validation. This point we're talking about, he is prepare genuinely care, right? So don't just do it as a check mark. But bring your humanity and compassionate actually care about people. There's so much research that when employees know that their leader cares about them, that on its own is hopeful for them. So there will be in their productivity. And he acts. So a c c es teach by example. So do the things that you want, your employees, the follow. And, um, I do see leaders stepping up more and more in their passion and their acceptance. And again, I think this is, ah, difficult but unique moment in time Do elevate our human embracing leadership. >>Do you advise women and men? Teoh. When we talked about gratitude a few minutes ago, right down, maybe. Right. Maybe it helps with your visual learner or someone that learns by storytelling to write things down, Maybe write down each day a few things. Maybe they seem so simple that you're grateful for, Or maybe even I like the idea of the emotional White Board. I can see that as something that would be helpful to write down. Do you recommend that to folks and maybe write down what your actual emotional thing is and what you want it to be? So a couple >>things on that. So the short answer is yes, you know, when it comes to gratitude, Um, it doesn't really matter how you practice like people say to me like I'm not a journalist, that's fine. That as long as you're specific and your gratitude So instead of I'm grateful for my family, how about I'm really grateful that I could give my daughter hug before I started interview? Right? So the more specific, the better. And actually the smaller the better. You talked about small things. Research shows that it's the frequency of small, positive experiences that contribute thoroughly. Satisfaction more than anything, grants so the smaller the better and capturing does health, so you can write in a journal. You can write it on a sticky notes. Maybe it's a text that you send to a friend to encourage them to practice practice as a leader. Maybe it's an email that you send to your teams. The factoring in some way really does help. And when it comes to the emotional white board, the practice that I share with, um, everyone is a check in. Check in with yourself, right? It's so incredible. You know, we have this group for women executives elevating women leaders. Is that all Vertical group, the year long program. It was worked well before this. So we have a group that goes with us every year, and one of the practice that we do is in the morning and in the afternoon, you check in with yourself on just day all my feeling, and you would not believe the impact that that has on their ability to solve problems on their ability to show up as their best just by pausing and checking in, like, How am I feeling what is in my emotional whiteboard? Acknowledging that without Dutchman being compassionate towards yourself and then saying, What is one thing I can shift if I would like you feel differently? >>The acknowledgement piece is critical, I think because it's it's the vulnerability to step up and go. I don't feel great about this and let me let me say that out loud. Maybe it helps me become accountable to that or expect it to a boss or a colleague that put it out there. That's a hard thing for people to do. Especially I think there is this dichotomy of people being concerned about John Safety when we're seeing what's going on in the news. Did any of that have come up during your WT two session about? I'm afraid to admit that I'm not motivated because our company's experiencing layoff. >>Yeah, it's definitely come up in the session and other sessions of kind of finding that balance. And look, you have to be realistic because we all have different filters in our teams. You have to be realistic about your leadership. But what I find over and over is that authenticity wins today, right? So, um, you have to you have to make all right how much you share. But even if it's just a little bit of Acknowledgments, it is helpful because it helps you not resist it so much and more likely than not. There's somebody on your team who feel similarly so that, by the way, there's comfort in knowing we're not alone. there's actually neurological comfort in knowing we're not alone like we need that sense of safety, but also you made them be able to move through that and brainstorm together and help each other get motivated. So you know, you have to judge by the culture of your team. But authenticity and you acknowledging your humanity to whatever degree you feel comfortable is usually an incredibly hopeful practice to help you be at your best, whatever that means. That >>day, I couldn't agree with you more. I always The authenticity is contagious. Natalie. It's been so great having you on the program. I wish we could keep chatting, but it is time to go. Thank you so much so folks can go toe happier, dot com or help your fellow happier and more. How about your home? Lots >>of lots of tons of free block posts and videos on all of the different practices I shared more about anything we do. So yes, come visit us that happier dot com and thank you so much for such thoughtful questions. I'm always incredibly grateful for thoughtful questions at interviews, but I really appreciate that. Well, >>good. Now it's been a pleasure having you. And I want to thank you for watching on behalf of Natalee code. And I'm Lisa Martin covering women transforming technology. The virtual version 2025. For now. >>Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Women Transforming Technology. Brought to you by VMware. >> Welcome to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin covering the fifth annual Women Transforming Technology. The first year that this event has gone completely digital. We're very pleased to welcome back to theCUBE one of our favorite alumni, the Chief People Officer of VMware, Betsy Sutter. Betsy, welcome back! >> Oh, thank you, Lisa. It's great to see you and it's great to be back. Love this time of year. >> Likewise, me too. And you know, I've had the great opportunity and pleasure of covering WT2 for theCUBE the last few years so I know walking into that courtyard area in Palo Alto, VMware's headquarters, you feel the energy and the excitement, and it's really genuine. And so, knowing that you had to pivot a couple you know, eight weeks or so ago or more, to convert what is such an engaging in-person experience to digital, hard decision, the right decision, but huge in terms of the number of attendees. Tell us a little bit about that process of taking We Rise digital. >> Yeah, you know, it was a pretty quick decision. At VMWare, we were starting to virtualize some other events, and so in realtime, we said, "let's go ahead "and virtualize Women Transforming Technology 2020." And so, when we immediate, flipped to that mode, things started to really open up. The possibilities became pretty interesting. And so honestly, we did not imagine you know, the people attending would grow from roughly thousands to over 5,000. And that's what digitalizing the event, virtualizing the event did. And it was super fun to use technology to make it so much more inclusive and accessible for people around the world. I'm sure you've heard that we had over 5,000 people from over 500 companies represented from 30 different countries. So that was amazing in its own right. >> One of the things that I think was a great advantage knowing that this was the fifth one, but that you had the opportunity to build the community, and such a strong, tight-knight community over the last few years, I think was probably a great facilitator of the event being so much bigger digitally. But when I spoke with a number of your speakers, everybody said, and I saw the Twitter stream, that the engagement, it wasn't like they were watching a video. It was really interactive, and that is hard to achieve with digital. >> Yeah, you know, what I love about the technology was that there were chat rooms, and there were Q&A rooms. And so, there was a lot of back and forth in realtime, even while the speakers were talking. You could sort of multitask, and the speakers were really, really fun to interact with that way as well. And it's super fun to see people in their home environments. You know, it's a just a little bit more information about them, and they seem a little bit more relaxed too, so it was tremendous. Watching Laura Dern, who is an activist and an obviously a very famous actress, in her own home talking to us about the issues she's faced as a woman in her industry, and then moving to another woman named Kathryn Finney, who is the CEO of digitalundivided, in her home with all the activity, she had a four-year old sort of in the background, was super fun and really landed their conversations with us even more solidly. It was a great day. >> I heard that throughout Twitter that people really felt that there was a personal connection. Lot of people talking about, I'm sitting here zooming with Laura Dern, what are you doing today? And some of the things that she said about, you know, you don't have to stay in your own swimlane. That resonated with me and I think with your community very well. >> You know,the diversity, the eclecticness of the women that were able to join from around the world and from many different industries, but you know, technical women, women in tech, was, it just up-leveled everything and it fit into the theme of the conference which was "We Rise", because you know, you're trying to rise as an individual, but there we were rising as a collective for a full day, and the workshops were super fun. I mean I participated in a number of 'em, and I literally went through a workshop with I don't know how many women, but you know, I was drawing on paper then engaging on the screen, then chatting, using the Q&A feature. It was a really dynamic day. I'm wondering now if we'll ever go back, honestly. >> Right, well I was already thinking, "Wow, you can take WT to global and do original events." And there's so much opportunity right now. Tremendous amount of challenge but on the same time, there is a lot of opportunity. In fact, when I was speaking with Sharmain (mumbles) yesterday, it was amazing that she was talking about, you know, right now, like the percentage increase, in people actually reading email because they have more time to, the commute time is gone. And so her advice to be really vivid, in making yourself visual, in terms of how you communicate, and evaluate your role and how you can add new value during this challenging time and I thought that was such a powerful message because we do need to look at what opportunities are we going to be able to uncover? There will be certain things that will go away, to your point, maybe we do digital because we can engage, we can interact and we can reach a bigger audience and learn from more people. >> Yeah, I think that's spot on. I couldn't have said that better. And you could really feel it that day and then the response from both the attendees, but even the keynote speakers, both Laura and Kathryn reaching back to us and talking about the experience they had. It was a pretty uplifting day, I'm still flying pretty high from it. And it was Cinco de Mayo so there had to have been at least margaritas, skinny margaritas, maybe, you know, virgin margaritas. But something there to celebrate an accomplishment of doing something in a short period of undertaking that community and being able to push the energy through the screen is awesome. I'd love to understand, you've been the Chief People Officer at the VMware for a while, the COVID crisis is so challenging in every aspect of life. We often talk about disruption, you know, in technology, a technology disruptor, you know, video streaming was a technology disruptor and Uber was a disruptor to transportation and the taxi service, but now the disruption is an unseen, scary thing and so the emotional impact, people are talking and a number of your folks I spoke to as well said it's hard to be motivated but it's important to acknowledge that I don't feel so motivated today for managers to be able to have that check-in with our employees and our teams. Tell me a little bit about the culture of VMware and how maybe the "We Rise" theme is really kind of, pervasive across VMware right now. >> Yeah, you know, one of the things that I believe and that I've seen in the people business is that more and more people join communities, they join companies but they join communities and communities come together based on you know, their actions, their ideas, their behaviors and what I've seen in terms of VMware's response to COVID-19 has been pretty remarkable. I think at first, you know, we were in crisis mode, sort of going in triage mode about what we do to keep our people feeling safe and healthy. But now we're sort of in a mode of "okay, there's a lot of opportunity that this presents." Now, we are very very fortunate, very blessed to be in the industry that we're in, and a lot of what we do and build and provide for our customers and partners fits into this new business model of working distributedly, so there's been some highs and some lows as we've navigated. First and foremost, we've just put our employees first and their health and safety, making sure that they're comfortable is just been top of mind for us. We just did a small sentiment survey, six questions. Because about two weeks ago, I realized, "I wonder if we really know how people are feeling about this?" And one of the things that came through, I'll say this, out of 32,000 people within 24 hours, over 10,000 people responded to this six question survey, they wanted to tell us how they were doing. But over 70% said they felt, if not the same amount of connection but more connection with each other working in a distributed fashion. And I think COVID-19's brought that alive. That we're going to work in a new way, it's a new business model and so we're doing it at VMware and then we're really pleased that we can offer that to our customers and partners around the globe. >> You know, I'm glad that you talked about the employee experience because obviously, with any business, customers are critical to the life, blood of that business. But equally important, if not sometimes more impactful to the revenue of an organization is the employee experience and being productive day in and day out. And that, if the employee experience is, I think, I don't know, you can't have a good customer experience without a good employee experience. And to (mumbles) that focus is key. So it must have been really nice for the VMware employees to go, "they're wanting to know how I feel right now." That's huge for people to know, the executive team genuinely cares. >> Yeah, you know, Lisa, we have really amped up our communications. We have done more town halls, whether it's to our management community our leadership and executive community or to the whole company. Yesterday alone, I think I did six town halls and two ask-me-anythings just to make sure we know it's on top of people's minds, what's important to them and that's kind of the new normal. And it's so much easier, right? I'm not trying to get to places, I'm just kind of clicking on a button and I'm all of a sudden talking to the employees in India. And you know, when I talk to my colleagues in other industries, like, Beth Axelrod or Tracey Ballow, that are in the you know, the Marriott and the Air BnB industries, their challaneges are so different. And what they're facing in this short-term, in the medium term. VMware is in a position where we can really help these businesses and at the core of that is really, how well our employees are doing and so that's been our focus. >> One of the things that I also talked about yesterday with Jo Miller, the CEO of Be Leaderly, was the difference between a mentor and a sponsor. And I had never even understood that they were two different things until WT2. And so, I thought, you know, we all know about mentors, we talk about that all the time. But I, she was really, I think it's an important message for your audience and ours to understand the difference and she said, "people are often over-mentored and under-sponsored." And so I thought, well, "I want to understand VMware's culture of sponsorship." Tell me what's going on in that respect. >> Yeah, we're, well, I agree with everything that you said on the mentorship side and so what we've instituted on the mentorship side at VMware's reverse mentorship. So every executive at VMware has a reverse mentor, so that they can learn something that they might not be thinking about. And whether it's a reverse mentor who happens to be, if you're a man, who happens to be a woman, or if you want to engage with the under-represented minority, or if you just want to learn about the different aspect of the business, we're big on reverse mentoring. On the sponsorship side, we do do that. And that's a really important aspect to any company's culture if you're trying to cultivate talent. And sponsorship is really championship, right? And I know I champion a lot of people, a lot of the talent around the company and it's very different than maybe coaching, advicing, and interacting in that venue. It's more about, what's the right opportunity for this person? When I'm in the board room, or when I'm in the executive staff meeting, actually advocating for that person, and I'm fierce about that. Especially for women right now at VMware, and it's just important. And a lot of people are starting to adopt that mindset because there's a lot more power and influence in having sponsorship behind you than having mentorship. >> I completely agree. Are you saying that, you know, we often talk about the hard skills and then the soft skills. And I always think soft is the wrong word but I keep forgetting to look it up on the thesaurus to get a better word. Because right now, I think, more important than ever, looking at someone who might have all of the hard skills to be on this the track to the c-suite,  but the importance of authenticity and empathy, I think now are under a microscope. We talked a lot about that too with some of your guests, tell me little bit about those kinds of conversations, that came up during the interactive sessions with WT2. >> Yeah, well, you know, this is one of the blessings that's come out of COVID-19, and this pandemic is that people are starting to see, because everyone's impacted by this and not just in one way, but in multiple ways. So, there's really this once in a lifetime opportunity, at least as far as what I've seen in my lifetime, to seize this heightened level of compassion and empathy for all the people around you in terms of what we're doing. At WT2, I saw it a lot in terms of the quality of the conversations that were happening virtually and sometimes with the key notes and the guest speakers, with the audience, there was always a lead-in with compassion and empathy in terms of all of us. All of us, no matter where you are in the world, or no matter what you're doing, adjusting to what we're calling this new normal. And there's a new business normal but the new normal on the personal side I think is going to take a little bit longer, right? In terms of what people are managing. But in the business world, I think you know, people are starting to re-bound and rebuild, they're honing those skills, and they're going to be wiser and better because of it. But at the heart of it all is, as you said, a lot more compassion and empathy 'cause never before, have we all kind of gone through something quite so traumatic as COVID-19. >> Traumatic and surreal. And you know, we are all in this same storm and I think there's a level of comfort there, that I know I feel with knowing, okay, everyone is going to be feeling this rollercoaster at some point. Some days you're here, some days you're here. But we're all in this, whether you're, you know, in your role, or Pat Gelsinger or an individual contributor role, we're all in the same sea. Betsy, congratulations on a successful fifth WT2, first digital. I'm so glad the theCUBE and myself was able to participate digitally. It's always one of my favorite events every year and I look forward to seeing you again soon, which I soon will be digitally, but I look forward to it. >> Lisa, thank you so much and thanks for all of your sponsorship and mentorship with WT2 over the years too. Thank you. >> All right, you too. That was Betsy Sutter, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of Women Transforming Technology 2. Thanks for watching, see you next time. (soft music)