>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live 2020, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live 2020, I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE, My co Stu Miniman. We've been talking about the value of data for many, many years and privacy and today's Data Privacy Day, and super important we are here every year past couple years, and the routine at Cisco has some answers for us. Our next guest Robert Waitman Director, Data Privacy and Economic Security and Trust Organization at Cisco, Robert Cube alumni, welcome back, good to see you. Thanks for coming back on. >> Thank you. Great to see you again. >> John: So you know we've had great chats in the past. You knows my favorite topic, the value of data, the role of data, we all believe data driven organizations. You guys just put out your annual report, which is privacy to profit. We asked question here on theCUBE, what's the value of data? That's the Holy Grail. But you guys actually got some progress on this, and narrowly defining around privacy, what's it worth with privacy if you invest in privacy, there is an ROI. We've seen similar reports on diversity, investing in these areas that look like impact mission based items actually has economic value. You guys have new data on a return on investment of privacy, share us the results. >> Happy to do so. And we've been on this journey for three years to try to understand where the value is coming from from privacy, putting protections in place. We first saw that it was showing up in terms of better sales motions, we're having fewer sales delays because organizations put privacy in place. Last year, we started looking at some of the security benefits that those organizations that invested in privacy we're seeing fewer and less costly breaches for example, and less records exfiltrated. So the idea of getting your data house in order is translating into business value. This year, we've not only validated those results from the past two years, but we've now taken it to the next step to have an actually a return on investment on those privacy investments. So our survey this year, which we put out yesterday, was based on 2800 companies, 2500 of which knew about privacy at their organizations. And we asked them about their investments, we ask them about the benefits that they thought they were getting, some in tangible ways and also some intangible ways, like competitive advantage, or operational efficiency, things that are hard to quantify. Overall results on that the average organization spends $100 on privacy, they're getting $270 back, it is a great investment. I don't know how many investments they have to have that kind of return. But in this environment, and this is where we're seeing, the customers who want these kinds of protections, it's a great investment. >> It's an omni directional kind of forcing function if you think about it. I wanted to ask you, how do you see some of the categories because I can certainly see the benefit of just, people who are afraid of their privacy and their data. You see a lot of train wrecks in the industry, from Facebook to other things where users are in control, right? They want to be in control. That's the trend. So I can see the halo effect of saying, well, this company's got good privacy, I like that company. >> Robert: Right? >> It's almost a modern kind of table stakes, like going green or something like that. Is there areas that pop out in the survey, where the ROI was a must have, in terms of privacy or sort of categorical? >> Well, the this idea of building your loyalty and trust of your customers, is something that we had explored. If like, there's a companion piece that we just put out a few weeks ago, exactly on this issue of the consumer interest in having that available to them. And I would say, wouldn't take it for granted. Until recently, most people have said, privacy is dead, and I don't know who has access to my data, and I don't know what's controlling it. But the combination of GDPR, which swung the pendulum a little bit back so that users again had the ability to know what data companies had about them, and in some cases to modify or delete it, started that tread, the CCPA in California, carries out a little bit further. And what we saw in this companion survey around individuals was fascinating because we saw people that are more active. They're saying not only do I care about privacy, which most people will say that I will spend time and money, which many people may say that, but the real test was here that they've made a change, that they've changed a provider or someone that they work with over their data practices or data policies. And what that saying to us is, there's an active community, we're calling them privacy actives. It's a third of the population today, who are standing up to say, I now know that I have some control over how my data is used. Therefore, think about the companies and how they relate to that their customers are saying to them, I'm not going to work with you. And I'm not going to do business with you. And I want to only work with companies who I know how the data is being used. It's now become an important priority. It's part of the brand. It's part of the overall customer experience. So customers aren't going to-- >> John: I think you are understanding the numbers too. I think you I believe what you just said, is only going to be amplified because with social networking and what we've seen with virality and even just with fake news and disinformation. There's also information that could go viral, like, hey, this company, the buyer swing, the influence that these groups could have could be a force multiplier on impact negatively and positively. >> Robert: Right. And I think that actually, we would bear that out as well. So even though I described the third of people who already have made that change, there's another 30 plus percent, who said the first two, they just haven't made that change yet, maybe they aren't comfortable with doing it yet or they haven't had the opportunity. So again, this is something that all companies A need to pay attention to, and B it's going to be fundamentally part of the overall experience. If you don't have the privacy right, you're like not in business. And again, I think that's a positive trend, getting to the creating the conditions in the world that I think we all want to live in where, where when I share my information with somebody who uses it well, I'm happy with that. If I share it with somebody who misuses it, I don't want anything to do with them. And that's, I think, what we all think how it should work. >> Yeah, that's really fascinating and I love what you're saying about how the consumers are getting involved. I was a little bit concerned that things like GDPR and CCPA were going to be like the old, software accept it to use it. Nobody reads it, nobody pays any attention to it, I just opt in to anything. So, what advice do you have to users, how do you make sure that you're working with companies that are going to be using your data correctly and get involved, if they're not? >> Robert: Well, first thing they should do is be aware of the regulations and the rights that they have. I mean, the awareness even if GDPR in Europe runs under two thirds, right? So it's not something to take for granted that everybody knows about what they can do. So the first thing is know what you can do ask for the data if you're not sure. And ask the questions about how your data is being used. If the company is not completely upfront and transparent with how the data is being used, and I don't mean a 20 page consent document, which you can't figure out what they're doing, then you should be either not doing it or asking those questions and you should have comfort that there are a lot of other consumers out there that are doing the same. So make sure you're doing that. Cisco tries to work very hard to share with our customers exactly how data is using in all of our products that's why it published the data privacy maps and the data privacy sheets to kind of make that easy on our customers. But in any business, that's something that, a consumer should be asking, a customers should be asking and the company should explain, simply and transparency. The one number one complaint that individuals still have today is they don't understand what companies are doing with their data. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's just mind boggling and that's, I think, again, the advice I give them is, you've got to get that right. >> How does Cisco do? What do you guys do? What do you offer people? I mean, let's just say people want to check. What was the mechanism that you guys are putting in place? Because I have no idea of WebEx my video is going to be facial recognition or my packets being routed through Cisco routers are being sniffed out, how do you guys put that transparency out there? >> Robert: Well, you like many customers ask those questions. And so we started creating and publishing these privacy data sheets, which were relatively streamlined, fairly short documents that you could go through and say, okay, I understand where the data is going. And we've done that on a whole bunch of the most requested products. We've taken another step to make them now very visual. I think we talked, we just launched that a year ago, where we tried to make them look like subway maps. Where you have sort of color coded ways the data flows through the system. And those are available. Anybody can come get them from trust.Cisco.com on the website, publicly available for customers who are interested in a product, don't have to go down the road and say well, it's just going to be my needs, they can get almost all of their questions answered through that. Yes, there may be some additional questions we want to answer later, like through the lawyers and through the conversations, but we least have a mechanism for giving the most of that information up front. >> Stu: Yeah, I love that trust was something that was front and center in the keynote this morning. I'm curious, Robert, with Cisco's position in the marketplace, the ecosystem you have is either something Cisco can lead or their industry considering to have kind of like a better business bureau. I shouldn't be able to go there and say, is this a reputable company? Am I okay, doing business with them? From a privacy standpoint, are there any initiatives in the works or is that something you might foresee going forward that I know oh, hey, this is somebody that it makes sense for me to work with. >> It's an interesting idea of, that could be created around that. I mean, I think where we are today is there's still a huge value of the government playing a role. I mean, the idea of GDPR and other regulations, if you have too much of it may not be helpful. But in today's environment, because the consumer can't always trust the company to do what they say they're going to do, you may not even be able to figure it out from the policy to begin with. But the government's role is to make sure that they're doing what they say they're going to do and therefore, consumers want government involved in that. So that again, there's a role to see fines and see penalties means that some of the guys are at least being-- >> Stu: Well, I wonder even you look at some of the fragmentation of the internet today, is there something that government or intergovernmental, kind of like the organization that runs the internet today, if there's there would be some room for them to be involved in something like that? I know it's a big audacious thing, but it is something that the general public companies, they don't trust most corporations with their information. >> Right. And it's a nice idea, especially in an environment where we want to avoid 50 different state legislative environments that companies are going to have to comply with. I mean, so far we go back to our study, we see this very positive return on privacy investment. If we get 50 more state laws that people have to comply with, that's very quickly going to get negative, right? So as although consumers are demanding more, it's more part of the brand. If we have too much regulation will start to see that around. So you're getting your idea of consolidation, having a single way is a very positive idea. >> Stu: In your report, I saw that GDPR and CCPA, oh, China's doing something, Brazil's doing something, it's going to be well it's from it's going to become onerous on the supplier and the consumer side if there isn't some commonality between them. >> Robert: Fully agree. That's right. >> John: Well, I got the report here folks, check it out. It is an amazing report. Every year, the team does an amazing job. This year it's about privacy ROI. This proves that good hiring works. Privacy, hiring practice, diversity inclusion, inclusion and diversity has pay off and this is the new modern era. I want to switch gears well on that note because Robert, we always love to talk about your role you're a data privacy and economics. So privacy economic, ROI, get that security and trust organization. The economic value is a big part of your study here. I think it's just scratching the surface. And I want to give you an example and I want you to react to it. Was having a conversation with a big time venture capitalist who just changed this job to start a fund for impact investing for profit. And one of his focus area is economics around self governing communities around policing some of these regulation issues. So there's so much regulation, business could get stunted. There's a trend going on now, Stu kind of lead it into it where communities are going to start to govern the brands as a check based on buyer behavior. So there's real signals that users are reacting to companies, policies, with data or whatever whether its environment whatever people are making purchasing decisions and organizing, that's going to change the economics, which is the top line impact, not just so much a cost structure to have certain regulatory policies. This is a venture capitalist. What's your reaction? He's investing in this direction. He thinks it's going to be big, your thoughts. >> Well, I think there's evidence for that, again, it's the idea that a company is more valuable because of some of the things that we're talking about was also we actually asked that question, did respondents think that their company was more valuable because they had progressed along the privacy dimension. Because you think about the loyalty and trust they built with their customers, aside from the operational benefits, and maybe the compliance benefits as well. So I would say, evidence for companies thinking that they themselves are further along, and those companies that have gone more than just the minimum that it's sort of becoming a little more mature, a little more accountable from their privacy programs are getting the best returns. We talked about that $270 on 100. If you're investing a little more and going up that curve, it's $310 on that 100. So again, better return on your investment, more loyalty and value and you see your company as being more valuable. So I think there's strong evidence for that happening again, you know how that actually works operationally another question, but there's something there. >> John: Stu and I were talking about how advertising and how social network and medium is all changing. And one of the things is you're driving at is that advertising used to be an attention game, get on TV, spread the message around, while you're teasing out and what Stu was talking about earlier in our other session is that influence and reputation is a new benchmark. So it's not so much, know my brand, my key rating or brand impression, its reputation, you're getting at something that's really interesting around reputation, which is swinging buying behavior. This is a new dynamic. >> Robert: Yeah, I think that reputational aspect is such an important part of the brand and even doing business and why this whole issue. I mean, the idea of privacy becoming a central tenet of the company and the brand and the overall experience is kind of what we're seeing as that pendulum swings back to the consumer and the ability to make those choices. It's becoming more and more important for the companies to get that right and have that be part of it. That's the value of the company, again, the value of the overall relationship. So I think that's a positive direction. >> John: We really appreciate you coming on. I want to get your thoughts, last question. What's your vision of where we are today in the world? You look around and you'll be happy with some of the things. You look at things like Facebook's going through a change, Jeff Bezos' phone was hacked via video on WhatsApp. You got the political environment, you have this entire trust equation. And it's just a dynamic time, your vision of how trust and data privacy and the economics and all your role. What do you see happening? What's your vision? >> I'm very optimistic about where it's going. I mean, I think we see ups and downs and we see setbacks. We see millions of records get exposed on users, and they get concerned about things. But I think we're trying to put the right processes and controls in place so that those controls and so the right things do happen with data, all trying to create that world that we all want to live in. That when our data is shared, it's used appropriately. So it's not going to be a smooth upward curve, but again, I think that idea of not only the legislative process where our governments are seeing that consumers need these protections that we can't go it alone, we need help with the companies that we work with, and the idea that they're willing to take it more into themselves. I mean, the fact that governments and companies who are concerned about the regulations and individuals themselves, would share the responsibility for creating all of those protections is, I mean, that makes me very positive about where it's going. >> John: And as politicians from all around the world, whether it's United States or other countries have to figure out how much regulation to put on the tech companies, this is a flashpoint of where industry could do their part and be part of the solution, not just be regulated, hopefully. Too much regulation kills entrepreneurship, in my opinion, but that's my opinion. >> Robert: It would kill our ROI right? >> ROI. >> Down the toilet. >> Okay, theCUBE comes bringing all the great conversations here at Barcelona, Data Privacy Day, this is a big part of our society now, and there's now evidence that it's worth investing in privacy thanks to Cisco's report. Good ROI. Of course great ROI of you stay with theCUBE for more action after this short break