>> Narrator: From theCube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCube Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCube. We're still on our Palo Alto studios, we're still getting through COVID and we're still doing all of our remotes, all of our interviews via remote and I'm really excited to have a guest we had around a long time ago. I looked it up is 2016, April 2016. She's Coco Brown, the founder and CEO of the Athena Alliance. Coco, it's great to see you. >> It's great to see you as well. We actually formally started in April of 2016. >> I know, I saw, I noticed that on LinkedIn. So we were at the Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference in Phoenix, I remembers was a really cool conference, met a ton of people, a lot of them have turned out that are on your board. So yeah, and you formally on LinkedIn, it says you started in May. So that was right at the very, very beginning. >> Yeah, that's right. >> So for people that aren't familiar with the at the Athena Alliance give them the quick overview. >> Okay. Well, it's a little different that it was four years ago. So Athena first and foremost is a digital platform. So you literally log in to Athena. And we're a combination of community access to opportunity and learning. And so you can kind of envision it a little bit like a walled garden around the LinkedIn, meets Khan Academy for senior executives, meets Hollywood agency for women trying to get into the boardroom and senior level roles in the c-suite as advisors, et cetera. And then the way that we operate is you can have a self-service experience of Athena, you can have a concierge experience with Athena with real humans in the loop making key connections for you and you can add accelerators where we build brand packages and BIOS and give you executive coaching. So... >> Wow. >> Kind of a... >> You've built out your services portfolio over the last several years. But still the focus >> yes, we have. is boards, right? Still the focus is getting women on public boards, or is that no longer still the focus? >> No, that's a big piece of it for sure. I mean, one of the things that we discovered, that was the very first mission of Athena, was to bring more women into the boardroom. And as we were doing that we discovered that once you get into a senior realm of leadership in general, there's more things that you want to do than just get into the boardroom. Some of it may be wanting to be an investor or an LP in a fund or become a CEO, or certainly join outside boards but also be relevant to your own inside board. And so we started to look at Athena as a more holistic experience for senior leaders who are attempting to make sure that they are the best they can be in this very senior realm of overarching stewardship of business. >> Awesome. and have you seen, so obviously your your focus shifted 'cause you needed to add more services based on the demand from the customers. But have you seen the receptiveness to women board members change over the last four years? How have you seen kind of the marketplace change? >> Yeah, it's changed a lot, I would say. First of all I think laws like the California law and Goldman Sachs coming out saying they won't take companies public unless they have diverse board data. The statements by big entities that people are paying attention to made the boardroom dynamics a conversation around the dinner table in general. So it became more of a common conversation and common interest as opposed to just the interest of a few people who are trying to get in there. And so that's created a lot of momentum as well as sort of thoughtfulness from leaders and from employees and from larger stakeholders to say the diversity at the top business has to mimic the demographics of society as a whole. And that's become a little bit more accepted as opposed to grudgingly sort of taken in. >> Right. So one of the big problems always it's like the VC problem, right? Is the whole matchmaking problem. How do you, how do qualified people find qualified opportunities? And I wonder if you can speak a little bit as to how that process has evolved, how are you really helping because there's always people that are looking for quality candidates, and there's great quality candidates out there that just don't know where to go. How are you helping bridge kind of that kind of basic matchmaking function? >> Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of different ways to go about it. One is certainly to understand and have real connections into the parts of the leadership ecosystem that influences or makes the decision as to who sits around that table. So that would be communities of CEOs, it's communities of existing board directors, it's venture capital firms, its private equity firms, and as you get really entrenched in those organizations and those ecosystems, you become part of that ecosystem and you become what they turn to to say, "Hey, do you know somebody?" Because it still is a "who do yo know" approach at the senior most levels. So that's one way. The other mechanism is really for individuals who are looking for board seats who want to be on boards to actually be thinking about how they proactively navigate their way to the kinds of boards that they would fit to. I like in a very much to the way our children go after the schools that they might want to when it's time for university. You'll figure out who your safeties, your matches, your reaches are, and figure out how you're going to take six degrees of separation and turn them into one through connections. So those are that's another way to go about it. >> You know, it's interesting, I talked to Beth Stewart from True Star, they also help place women on boards. And one of the issues is just the turnover. And I asked that just straight up, are there formal mechanisms to make sure that people who've been doing business from way before there were things like email and the internet eventually get swapped out. And she said, that's actually a big part of the problem is there isn't really a formal way to keep things fresh and to kind of rotate the incumbents out to enable somebody who's new and maybe has a different point of view to come in. So I'm curious when someone is targeting their A-list and B-list and C-lists, how do they factor in kind of the age of the board composition of the existing board, to really look for where there's these opportunities where a spot opens up, 'cause if there's not a spot open up clearly, there's really not much opportunity there. >> Yeah, I mean, you have to look at the whole ecosystem, right? I mean, there's anything from let's say series A, venture backed private companies all the way up to the mega cap companies, right? And there's this continuum. And it's not, there's not one universal answer to what you're talking about. So for example, if you're talking about smaller private companies, you're competing against, not somebody giving up their seat, but whether or not the company feels real motivation to fill that particular independent director seat. So the biggest competition is often that that seat goes unfilled. When you're talking about public companies, the biggest competition is really the fact that as my friend Adam Epstein of the small cap Institute will tell you, that 80% of public companies are actually small cap companies. And they don't have the same kinds of pressures that large caps do to have turnover. But yeah, it takes a big piece of the challenge is really boards having the disposition collectively to see the board as a competitive advantage for the business as a very necessary and productive piece of the business and when they see that then they take more proactive measures to make sure they have a evolving and strong board that does turnover as it needs to. >> Right. So I'm curious when you're talking to the high power women, right, who are in operational roles probably most of the time, how do you help coach them, how should they be thinking, what do they have to do different when they want to kind of add board seats to their portfolio? Very different kind of a role than an operational role, very different kind of concerns and day to day tasks. So, and clearly, you've added a whole bunch of extra things to your portfolio. So how do you help people, what do you tell women who say, "Okay, I've been successful, "I'm like successful executive, "but now I want to do this other thing, "I want to take this next step in my career"? What usually the gaps and what are the things that they need to do to prepare for that? >> Well, I'm going to circle in then land a little bit. Autodesk was actually a really great partner to us back when you and I first met. They had a couple of women at the top of the organization that were part of Athena, specifically because they wanted to join boards. They are on boards now, Lisa Campbell, Amy Bunszel, Debbie Clifford. And what they told us is they were experiencing everything that we were offering in terms of developing them, helping them to position themselves, understand themselves, navigate their way, was that they simply became better leaders as a result of focusing on themselves as that next level up, irrespective of the fact that it took them two to three years to land that seat. They became stronger in their executive role in general and better able to communicate and engage with their own boards. So I think, now I'm landing, the thing that I would say about that is don't wait until you're thinking oh, I want to join a board, to do the work to get yourself into that ecosystem, into that atmosphere and into that mindset, because the sooner you do that as an executive, the better you will be in that atmosphere, the more prepared you will be. And you also have to recognize that it will take time. >> Right. And the how has COVID impacted it, I mean, on one hand, meeting somebody for coffee and having a face to face is a really important part of getting to know someone and a big part of I'm sure, what was the recruitment process, and do you know someone, yeah, let's go meet for a cup of coffee or dinner or whatever. Can't do that anymore, but we can all meet this way, we can all get on virtually and so in some ways, it's probably an enabler, which before you could grab an hour or you didn't have to fly cross-country or somebody didn't have to fly cross-country. So I'm kind of curious in this new reality, which is going to continue for some time. How has that impacted kind of people's ability to discover and get to know and build trust for these very very senior positions. >> HBR just came out with a really great article about the virtual board meeting. I don't know if you saw it but I can send you a link. I think that what I'm learning from board directors in general and leaders in general is that yes, there's things that make it difficult to engage remotely, but there's also a lot of benefit to being able to get comfortable with the virtual world. So it's certainly, particularly with COVID, with racial equity issues, with the uncertain economy, boards are having to meet more often and they're having, some are having weekly stand ups and those are facilitated by getting more and more comfortable with being virtual. And I think they're realizing that you don't have to press flesh, as they say, to actually build intimacy and real connection. And that's been a hold up, but I think as the top leadership gets to understand that and feel that for themselves, it becomes easier for them to adopt it throughout the organization that the virtual world is one we can really embrace, not just for a period of time. >> It's funny we had John Chambers on early on in this whole process, really talking about leadership and leading through transition. And he used the example, I think had been that day or maybe a couple days off from our interview where they had a board meeting, I think they were talking about some hamburger restaurant, and so they just delivered hamburgers to everybody's office and they had the board meeting. But that's really progressive for a board to actually be doing weekly stand ups. That really shows a pretty transformative way to manage the business and kind of what we think is the stodgy old traditional get together now and then, fly and then get some minutes and fly out, that's super progressive. >> Yeah. I mean, I was on three different board meetings this week with a company I'm on the board of in Minnesota. And we haven't seen each other in person in, I guess since January. (woman laughs) >> So final tips for women that want to make this this move, who, they've got some breathing space, they're not homeschooling the kids all day while they're trying to get their job done and trying to save their own business, but have some cycles and the capabilities. What do you tell them, where should they begin, how should they start thinking about, kind of taking on this additional responsibility and really professional growth in their life? >> Well, I mean, I think something very important for all of us to think about with regard to board service and in general as we get into a very senior level point in our careers at a managing and impact portfolio. People get into a senior point and they don't just want to be an executive for one company, they want to have a variety of ways that they're delivering impact, whether it's as an investor or as a board member or as other things as well as being an operator. And I think the misnomer is that people believe that you have to add them up and they, one plus one plus one equals three, and it's just not true. The truth is that when you add a board seat, when you add that other thing that you're doing it makes you better as a leader in general. Every board meeting I have with [Indistinct] gives me more than I bring back to Athena as an example. And so I think we tend to think of not being able to take on one more thing and I say that we all have a little more space than we think we have to take on the things we want to do. >> Right? That's a good message to me. It is often said if you want to get something done, give it to the busiest person in the room. It's more likely to get it done 'cause you got to be efficient and you just have that kind of get it done attitude. >> That's right. >> All right, Coco. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts. >> Congratulations, so I guess it's your four year anniversary, five year anniversary [Indistinct] about right? >> Yes, four. >> That's terrific. And we look forward to continuing to watch the growth and hopefully checking in face to face at some point in the not too distant future. >> I would like that. >> All right. Thanks a lot Coco. >> Great talking to you. >> Already. >> She's Coco, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCube. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From Phoenix, Arizona, theCUBE. At Catalyst Conference, here's your host Jeff Frick. (soft music) >> Hey Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Phoenix, Arizona at the Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference. About 400 people. The fourth year of the conference. Really getting together, talking about women in tech issues. Something in the water, here in Phoenix. We were here two years ago at the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women and Computing, also just down the road. So we're happy to be here and really get a feel. And bring to you some of the leaders here, that are making things happen. We're really excited by our next guest, Coco Brown, the founder and CEO of the Alena Alliance, or Athena Alliance, excuse me, welcome. >> Thank you. >> So the Athena Alliance, what's it all about? >> Well so the Athena Alliance is an organization of executive women who've achieved great success in their careers. And they have vision collectively of women operating at their highest level of impact. And within the context of a business leadership realm, that highest level really is the boardroom. And so our mission is to help women obtain board seats and be successful in the role. >> So there's a lot of conversations about board. It seems to be kind of the new hot button topic about inequality. There's certainly ton of conversations about inequality and pay highlighted recently by the women's national soccer team, which got a lot of buzz. And I think everyone knows that conversation that's been going on for a while. But the boardroom conversation is kind of new. It's kind of bubbling up. Or at least that's my sense of it, that barely have cracked the surface in terms of historical numbers in getting women representation on boards. >> Yeah. >> Why does that continue to be a problem? Is it a pipeline issue? Is it a match making issue? Is it a networking issue? Is it just, I just don't know? What is the issue? >> It's not a pipeline issue. And so what's happened in this discussion is there were some, sort of, pretty notable examples of situations where women raised their hands and said, hey where are the women on these boards. And the response was, well where are the women? Which kind of created this energy around the topic a lot more strongly more recently. Which is to say, there are a lot of qualified women out there who would be great board directors. And yet the positions of board director are gate kept by largely men. This is just the circumstance. Men are the ones who back companies. They're their VCs, they're the founders, they're the CEOs. And within their networks, they don't have a lot of women. Executive women. Likewise, executive women tend to seek each other out too. So we're not in each other's realms. So a lot of the conversation has been around raising awareness to the issue. There's been great tracking of exactly where is the issue. And how are we making progress. And then there's been a lot of great organizations that have been helping women get ready for board positions, training them. And thirdly, there's a lot of great organizations out there who are, essentially, identifying qualified women, and cataloging them, putting them in data bases and saying, hey no excuses, here they are. But the key missing element and my feeling as to why the problem continues to persist, part of it is just time. It's just going to take time. But part of it is also, really networking, what you said. It is about networking. It is that the women who want these positions and who are qualified for these positions need to know the men who are looking for board directors. And when you actually connect, make those two connections happen, you get incredible success. And we're seeing it already. >> Or as the age old advice, it's not who you know, but who knows you. >> Yes! >> It used to always be the other way around. But it's really who knows you. And we live in such a time of personal branding and external communication via LinkedIn, Twitter, blogs, medium, however you choose to externalize your professional position. And it kind of gets intermingled with your personal position. There really is not much excuse, at least, to make the attempt, to get yourself out there. >> Exactly, it's why. So there's 16 of the speakers here at this conference, are Athena Alliance women. And part of the reason we're here, we're here because this is such a noble and important and fantastic event for us to participate in. The other reason we're here is because this is apart of our way of getting known too, right. Of becoming more visible. Of making our brand, personal brand known. So this is one of those key things about who knows you that we should and need to be doing. >> So how many Athena foundation women are in executive boards now? >> So Athena Alliance is relatively new. So we're just getting started. About 50% of, 47% of the women associated with Athena Alliance are already on boards. >> That's pretty good, 47%. >> Yes, largely those are non-profit boards. >> Okay. >> They also are on a fair number of advisory boards. And they're now looking for the private boards and corporate boards and they're looking for public boards as well. >> And do you see that as kind of a logical stepping stone between an advisory board, a non-profit board, potentially a private company board, a VC company and then to a larger public entity. Is that kind of? >> Yeah I see it two ways. On the one hand, it's stepping stones and on the other, we have a variety of careers. So let's take me for example. I ran and was an owner of a privately held company. We reached about 50 million dollars in revenue before I sold my ownership, moved on. I'm qualified for a certain kind of a board. I'm qualified for a private board of a certain type of growth, sort of trajectory or stage. Others like Yvonne, who you spoke with, she's qualified for public boards of a different size. So some of it is what we're qualified for and what we can really contribute to and some of it is stepping stones. So for example, advisory boards are a great stepping stone. You get absolutely zero board credit for being on an advisory board, 'cause it doesn't have fiduciary responsibilities. >> No fiduciary responsibility. >> Right. But it's incredible network experience. It's a great way to get to know CEOs, to get to know VCs, to make yourself known as a candidate for other aspects of that company. >> Where do you see the natural networking opportunities? 'Cause clearly there's networks that exist around where you went to school. There's networks around, increasingly alumni groups, within companies, especially a big company like an Intel or an HP, where you got these huge alumni groups, 'cause they've been around for so long. Where are some of the other natural alumni groups that then cross over that are going to allow rubbing of shoulders with the old school guy board members with some of these women that are trying to break through? >> Yeah it's interesting. I think that is a really good opportunity space because I do see that mostly, the networking pods, if you will, are within school alumni groups, or corporate alumni groups, or organizations that women belong to. But that are largely then just women organizations. Or maybe some industry organizations. And industry boards are a great way to make that connection point. But I don't think that women do have opportunities of overlap with men in those organizations and those networking communities. So the way it has to happen is, I think we have to make it happen. So it's almost like, creating mixers. We need some mixers, right? Male VCs mixed with Athena Alliance women. Let's get together. We actually have an event coming up like that. Where you can have some men and women in the same room. They get to get a sense of each other. Those you do start seeing more of that going on and it's kind of essential. >> 'Cause you really need that right? I mean, they are networks. And everything going on today is all about networks, whether it's IOT or social media or whatever. It's networks and they're all naturally bound by something but how do you get that overlap from one network to the other when there's not enough overlap to really make the activity that you're seeking. Of course, there's always CUBE alumni, which is a terrific network. So we'll use that as a founding point. >> Absolutely. Well and Dan Scholnick, who is a general partner with Trinity, he's on a number of boards. He's speaking at an event for the Athena Alliance on a panel coming up. And he's got board openings in the variety of boards that he's on. Those are the kinds of connections. Make opportunities for Dan to be in the same room as a number of these great women. I think we just have to create it. >> It's interesting, interesting. 'Cause it is all about the connection, right. You got to know people and you got to put the word out. Nobody ever got a board seat sending out a resume. I don't know. How many come from executive head hunters? I never got a job from executive head hunters. It's really more about who you know. >> And executive recruiters only actually fill about one to two percent of board seats. It's only the top companies with the deepest pockets or the greatest pressure that can do that. >> Okay so what are your priorities for the next six months, nine months, what are your top things your guys are working on at the Alliance? >> So we're relatively new, so big, big priority for us is funding. We're also scaling. So scaling is one of the important things. In other words, scaling our relationships with those VCs, with CEOs, and starting to create great linkages through these networking events. >> All right, well Coco, thank you for taking a few minutes. >> Thank you. >> Absolutely and good luck with the Alliance. It sounds like you guys are on your way. We see increasingly, we did a show at SAP in conjunction with MAKERS and they got a great movie about some of the women who just broke down barriers in advertising, fashion, finance, tech, et cetera. Meg Whitman, among many women highlighted there. And it's tough to break down that door. When the first one gets through, hopefully they leave a little space for somebody else to scooch in behind them. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Absolutely. All right, Jeff Frick here with Coco Brown. We are the Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference, Phoenix, Arizona. You're watching theCUBE. See you next time. (soft music)