>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Well, hi everybody, John Walls here on theCUBE as we continue our IBM Think initiative. And today talking with Clemens Reijnen who is the Global CTO Cloud and DevOps Leader at Capgemini. And the Clemens, thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. Good to see you today. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. >> Yeah, tell us a little bit about Capgemini, if you will, first off for our viewers at home who might not be familiar with your services. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit more about your specific responsibilities there. >> So who doesn't know Capgemini in this system in the greater world and the IT world as we lived on a stone. So Capgemini is a worldwide system integrated with offerings in all kinds of spaces and all areas there. My responsibility is mainly around cloud and DevOps and taking care of countries or delivery centers have the right knowledge around cloud and the right capabilities around DevOps. And to support our customers and with their journey to the cloud into a digital organization. >> Yeah. Everybody's talking about digital these days. >> Everybody yeah. >> And it's magical digital transformation that's occurring, that's been going on for quite some time. What does that look like to you? And when you start defining digital organizations and digital transformations what are the kinds of things that you're talking about with organizations in terms of that kind of migration path? >> Yeah. So it's quite interesting to just start discussion about how does a digital landscape looks like for an organization wants to start transforming to a digital organization. And then when you are looking at that I'm always talking to discretion with business capabilities. An organization wants to create business capabilities either to interact and engage with their workforce and to make them work in the most efficient way. And what they are using for that are all kinds of different digital channels. And those digital channels they can be a mobile app. I'm working with my mobile app to connect with my work. I'm calling, I'm using zoom, I'm using teams and that kind of stuff. We also using chatbots for IT devices. And that's what the normal workforce expect nowadays. All have to have all those digital channels to interact with the business. That's also on the other side, at the customer side and organizations want to engage and grow on the customer site and have their nice interaction there. And again, they are using those digital channels all the different digital channels, maybe IoT, maybe API to interact with those customers to bring them the engagement interaction they really want to have. And in that transformation part definitely they are looking at what kind of challenges I have with working with customers like this and working with my workforce. Now everybody's working from home challenges with maybe the connections and that kind of stuff. But they are also starting to leverage, and that's where the transformation and migration start with their on-prem systems, their legacy systems to move those kinds of capabilities and enrich that with cloud native capabilities to all kinds of enterprise solutions like the ones from IBM for example, to expose that to their digital channels, to their organizations. And that's the landscape, how it looks like. And then we have the discussion with organizations. How do you want to engage with your customers? What kind of digital channels do you need? What are the business systems you have and how can we enrich them and expose them to the outside world with all the enterprise solutions around them. >> And when you talk about a process like this which sounds holistic, right? You're looking at, what do you have? Where do you want to go? What are your business needs? Which all makes great sense. But then all of a sudden you start hitting speed bumps along the way. There are always challenges in terms of deployments There are always challenges in terms of decisions and those things. So what are you hearing again from on the customer side about, what are my pain points? What are my headaches here as I know, I want to make this jump, but how do I get there? And I have these obstacles in my way. >> Yeah, definitely. And the ones I explained already which are underlooked for site and on the customer side. You want to have the engagements there you want to have interactions there. And then you have that whole digital landscape which comes with some interesting challenges. Then how do I implement this landscape in the right scalable way? How do I expose my data in such a way that it is secure? How do I leverage all the capabilities from the platforms I'm using? And how do I make all these moving parts consistent, compliant with the regulations I need to work towards to? How do I make it secure? So those are definitely big enterprise challenges like appliances, security and that kind of stuff but also technology challenges. How do I adopt those kinds of technologies? How do I make it scalable? How do I make it really an integrated solution on its own? So that my platform is not only working for the digital channels we know right now but they are also ready for the digital channels We don't know yet will start to come here. That's the biggest challenges there for me. >> Yeah. I want to get into that a little bit later too. Cause you raised a great point. Well, let's just jump right now. We know what the here now is but you just talked about building for the future building for a more expansive footprint or kinds of capabilities that frankly we're not even aware of right now. So how do you plan for that kind of flexibility that kind of agility when it's a bit unpredictable? >> Yeah. And that's what every organization tries to be agile, flexible, resilient and you need to build your system conform that. And well we normally start with you need to have a clear foundation and a foundation when, for example when you are using the cloud for it every organization is cloud for it. You want to have that foundation in such a way that those digital channels can connect really easy to it. And then the capabilities the business capabilities created are done by product teams product and feature teams are creating those kinds of capabilities on top of that cloud foundation. And in that foundation, you want to put everything in place. What makes it easy for those teams to focus on that business functionality on those business capabilities. You want to make it very easy for them to do it the right thing that I always love to say that that's what you want to put in your cloud foundation. And that's where you are harnessing your security. Every application with learning on the foundation has secure. You are embracing a standard way of working although not every DevOps teams like that they want to be organizing and that kind of stuff. But when you are having 50 or a 100 DevOps teams you'd want to have some kind of standardization and provide them a way. And again, the easy way should be the right way to provide them templates, provide them technologies so that they can really focus very quickly on those kinds of business capabilities. So the cloud foundation is the base that needs to be in place. >> Now, you've been doing this for a long time and the conversation used to be, shall we move to the cloud? Can we move to the cloud? Now it's about how fast can we move to the cloud? How much do we move to the cloud? So looking at that kind of the change in paradigm if you will, what are organizations having to consider in terms of the scale, the depth, the breadth of their offering now, because innovation and as you know, it can happen at a much faster pace than it could have just a very short time ago. >> Yeah. And then I'm reflecting again back to the easy thing should be the right thing. That's what you want to do for your DevOps. >> I love that concept. (laughs) >> And that's where you should focus on as an organization. For example, what we've put in place. We put a lot of standardization, a lot of knowledge in place in what we call in an Inner Source library. And in that Inner Source library, for example we put all kinds of strips, all kinds of templates all kinds of standardization for teams who want to deploy OpenShift on their platform or want to start working with certain cloud packs. That they can set it up very easily conforms the standards of your organization and start moving from there. And then in the cloud foundation, you have your cloud management and the IBM Cloud Manager because organizations are definitely going towards the hybrid scenarios, different organizational or units wants to start using different clouds in there. And also for the migration part you want to have that grow from there. And standardization, Inner Source and having those templates ready, it's key for organizations now to speed up and be ready to start juggling around with workloads now on any cloud where you want to and that's the idea. >> Sure. Now, so Red Hats involved in this she had IBM involved as well obviously your partnership working with them. Talk about that kind of merger of resources, if you will. And in terms of what the value proposition is to your clients at the end of the day to have that kind of firepower working in their behalf. >> Yeah. And that's for example, IBM is for us a very important partner. Definitely on the hybrid multi-cloud scenarios where we can leverage OpenShift on those kinds of platforms for our customers. And we created what I said, templates, scripts. We use the IBM garage projects for it to create deployments for our teams in a kind of self servicing way to deploy those OpenShift clusters on top of the cloud platform of their choice. And then for sure, with the multi-cloud manager from IBM we can manage that actually in the lending zone and that's actually the whole ID. And you want to give the flexibility and the speeds to your DevOps teams to be able to do the right thing is the easy thing. And then manage it from your cloud foundation so that they are comfortable that when they're putting the workloads in that whole multi hybrid cloud platform that it is managed, organized all in the right way. And that that's definitely where IBM Red Hat OpenShift comes in play. And because they have already such a great tool sets ready it really think DevOps. That's what I really like. And also with the migrations, it comes with a lot of DevOps capabilities in there not playing lift shift but also the modelisation immediately in there. And that's what I like about our partnership with IBM is just, they are DevOps in mind also. That's cool. >> Yeah. What about the speed here? Just in general, just about the, almost the pace of change and what's happening in that space cause it used to be these kinds of things took forever. It seemed like or evolutions, transitions were to take a long period of time. It's not the case anymore now that things are happening in relatively lightning speed. So when you're talking with an organization about the kinds of changes they could make and the speed at which they can do that. Marry those up for me and those conversations that you're having. And if I'm a CIO out there and I'm thinking about how am I going to flip this switch? Convince me right now, (Clemens laughing) What are the key factors? And how easy, how right will this be for me? >> So as a CIO, you want to have your scalable and your flexible organization probably at this moment, you're sitting with your on-prem system with probably a very large relational database with several components around there. And now you want to fuel those digital channels there. The great way with IBM with Red Hat is that we can deploy OpenShift container solutions everywhere and then starting to modernize those small components or at that big relational database. And we were at starting to do that, we can do that really at Lightspeed. And there are, we have a factory model up and running, where we can put in the application landscape of a customer and look at it and say, "Okay, this one is quite easy. We are running it to, or modernization street. And it runs into a container." And from there, you start to untangle actually the hair ball of your whole application landscape and starting to move those components. And you definitely want to prioritize them. And that's where you have discussions with the business, which is most valuable to move first and which one to move there. And that's actually what we put in place is the factory model to analyze an application landscape of a customer, having the discussions with those customers and then say, "Okay we are going to move these workloads first. Then we are going to analyze the count of these and then we are going to move these." And we really start rocking fast moving their workloads to the cloud and so that they can start and reach those digital channels you want to do it in half. >> Well, a great process. And I love your analogies by the way you say about hairball there. (Clemens and John laughing) I totally get it. Hey Clemens, thank you for the time today. I appreciate hearing about the Capgemini story and about your partnership with IBM. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> All right. So well, we have learned one thing the easy thing is the right thing and that's the Capgemini way of getting things done. You've been watching part of the IBM Think initiative here on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>from around the >>globe. It's the cube >>with digital >>Coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM >>Well how everybody john wall is here on the CUBA as we continue our IBM think initiative And today talking with Clemens, Raymond, who is the global CTO cloud and DeVOPS leader at Cap Gemini And Clemens, thanks for joining us here on the cube. Good to see you today. >>Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. >>Yeah. Tell us a little bit about Cap Gemini. If you will first off for our viewers at home that might not be familiar with your services. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit about your specific responsibilities there. >>So who doesn't know Cap Gemini in this system? Integrator world and the world has been living on the stone. And uh, so Geminis a worldwide system, integrated liquid offerings in all kinds of spaces in all areas there. >>Uh, my >>responsibility is mainly around cloud and devils >>have taken care >>our countries on delivery centers have the right knowledge around clouds, right capabilities around devils to support our customers and with their journey to the cloud into a digital organization. >>Everybody's talking about digital these days, right. And everybody this magical digital transformation that's occurring that's been going on for quite some time. Um, what does that look like to you? And when you start defining digital organizations and digital transformations, what are the kinds of things that you're talking about with organizations in terms of that kind of migration path? >>Yeah, so it's quite interesting to start discussion about how does a digital landscape looks like >>for an >>organization wants to start transforming to a digital organization. >>And then when you are >>looking at that, I'm always starting the discussion with business capabilities. An organization wants to create business capabilities >>either to uh, interact and engage with their workforce to make them work in the most efficient way. And what we are using for that are all kinds of different digital channels and those digital channels that can be a mobile app. I'm working with my mobile app to connect with my work, I'm calling, I'm using zoom are using teams and that kind of stuff were also using chatbots for IOT devices and that's what the normal workforce expect. Nowadays all have to have all those digital channels to interact with the business. That's also on the other side, at the customer side, our organizations want to to to engage and and grow on the customer side and have the nice interaction there. And again they are using those digital channels, all the different digital channels, maybe IOT maybe a P. I. S. To interact with those customers to bring them uh the engagement interaction they really want to have. And and in that transformation part definitely they are looking at what kind of challenges I have with working with customers like this and working with my workforce now everybody is working from home, challenges with maybe with uh connections and that kind of stuff, but they're also starting to leverage and that's that's where the transformation and migration starts with their their own prem systems, their legacy systems to move those kinds of capabilities and enriched with cloud native capabilities to all kinds of enterprise solutions, like the ones from IBM for example to expose that to their digital channels to their organizations and that that's the landscape how it looks like. And then we have the discussion with organizations, How do you want to engage with your customers? What kind of digital channels do you need? Uh What are the business systems you have and how can we enrich them and expose them to the outside world with all the enterprise solutions around them? >>And when you talk about a process like this, which is, you know, sounds holistic, right? You're looking at, what do you have? What do you want to go? What are your, what are your business needs? You know, which all makes great sense. But then all of a sudden you start hitting speed bumps along the way. Right? Um, there are always challenges in terms of deployments are always challenges in terms of decisions and those things. So what are you hearing again from on the customer side about what are my paying points? What are my headaches here? As I know I want to make this jump. How do I get there? And I have these obstacles in my way? >>Yeah, definitely. And, and, and, and uh, the ones I explained already which are, are on the workforce site and on the customer side, you want to have the engagements there, you ought to have the interactions there and then you have that whole digital landscape which comes with some interesting challenges. And how do I implement this landscape in in the right scalable way? How do I expose my data and situate that it is secure? How do I I leverage all the capabilities from the platforms I'm using and how do I make all these moving parts, uh, consistent, compliant with the regulations I need to work towards to how do I make it secure? So, so those are definitely big enterprise challenges that compliance is security and that kind of stuff. But also technology challenges. How do I adopt those kinds of technologies? How do I make it scalable? How do I make it really and integrated solution on its own so that my platform is not only working for the digital channels we know right now, but they are also ready for the digital channels. We don't know yet. We'll start calling uh, biggest challenges after you >>get into that a little bit later too, because you raised a great point. Well, let's just jump right now. We know what the hearing now is, but you just talked about building for the future building for more expansive footprint or kinds of capabilities that frankly, we're not even aware of right now. So how do you plan for that kind of flexibility, that kind of agility when it's a bit unpredictable. >>Yeah, and, and, and that's what every organization tries to be an agile, flexible resilient. Uh, and you need to build your system conformed that and, and uh, where we normally start with, you need to have a clear foundation and and and, and and the foundation when, for example, when you are using the cloud for it, uh, every organization is cloud for it. You want to have that foundation in such a way that that those digital channels can, can connect really easy to it and that the capabilities, the business capabilities created are done by product teams. Product and feature teams are creating those kinds of capabilities on top of that cloud foundation. And in that foundation you want to put everything in place. What makes it easy for those teams to focus on that business functionality on those business capabilities? You want to make it very easy for them to do it the right thing that I always love to say that that's what you want to put in your cloud foundation, that's where you are are dishing your security. Every application was landing on the Foundation has secured. Uh, you are embracing a standard way of working, although not every devops teams like that, they want to be self organizing and that kind of stuff. But when you are having 50 or 100 devops teams, you want to have some kind of standardization and provide them away. And again, the easy way should be the right way to provide them templates, provide them technologies so that they can really focus very quickly on on those kinds of business capabilities. So, so the clerk Foundation is the base mm that needs to be in place. >>You've been doing this for a long time and, you know, the conversation used to be, you know, should we move to the cloud? You know, can we move to the cloud now? It's about how fast can we move to the cloud? How much do we move to the cloud, you know? Um So looking at that kind of the change in paradigm, if you will, what are organizations having to consider in terms of, you know, the scale, the depth, the breadth of their offering now, because innovation and as you know, it can happen in a much faster pace than it could have just, you know, a very short time ago. >>And then I'm reflecting again back to the easy things should be the rifle, that's what you want to do with your for your concept, it's and and and that's where you should focus on as an organization, for example, what we put in place and we put a lot of standardization, a lot of knowledge in place, in what we call in an inner source library. And in that inner source library, for example, we put all kinds of strips, all kinds of templates, all kinds of standardization. Four teams who either want to to deploy open shift on that platform or want to start working with certain cloud packs that they can set it up very easily conforms the standards of the organization and start moving from there. And then in the cloud foundation you have your cloud management, the IBM Club Manager because organizations are definitely going towards the hybrid scenarios. Different organizational units, wants to start using different clouds in there and and and also for the migration part. You want to have that grow from there and standardization Inner Source and having those templates ready. It's it's, it's, it's key for organizations now to, to to speed up and be ready to start joking around with red workloads on any cloud where you want to add that. That's the idea. >>Sure. So red hats involved in issue and IBM involved as well. Obviously your partnership working with them um talk about that kind of merger of resources if you will. And in terms of how what the value proposition is to your clients at the end of the day, they have that kind of firepower working on their behalf. >>Yeah, that's for example, I B M is for us, a very important partner, definitely on the hybrid multi cloud scenarios where we can leverage open shift on on on those kinds of platforms for our customers. We created what I said uh templates, scripts, we use the IBM garage project for it to create deployments for our teams in the kind of self serving way to deploy those open shift clusters on top of the cloud platform day of their choice. And then for sure with the multi cloud manager from IBM we can manage that actually in the landing zone and that's actually the whole I. D. And you want to give the flexibility and the speed uh to your devoPS teams to be able to do the right thing is the easy thing and then manage it from your cloud foundation so that they are comfortable that when they put in the work loads in that whole multi hybrid cloud platform that it is managed organized all in the right way. And that that's definitely where IBM read that over shift comes in play and and because they have already such a great tool sets ready, they really think devoPS, that's what I really like. Also with the migrations it comes with a lot of devops capabilities in they're not playing lift shift but also the modernization immediately in there. And and that's what I like about our partnership which made the IBM it says they are devops in mind also that, that's, that's cool. >>What about the speed here? Just in general? Just but almost the pace of change and what's happening in that space because it used to be like these kinds of things took forever. It seemed like and where evolutions transitions were to take a long period of time, it's not the case anymore. You know, things are happening in relatively lightning speed. Um, so when you're talking with the organization about the kinds of changes they can make and the speed at which they can do that marry those up for me and those conversations that you're having and if I'm a, you know Ceo out there and I'm thinking about how am I going to flip this switch convinced me right now, the, the key factors right? And and how, how easy, how right will this be for me? >>So as a C I. O. You want to have your, your scalable and you're flexible organization. Probably at this moment you are sitting with your thumb print system with probably a very large relational database with, with several components around there. And now you want to fuel those digital channels there at a great way with IBM with red hat is that we can deploy open shift container solutions everywhere and then starting to modernize those small components around the big relational database. We were starting to do that. We can do that really at at light speeds and then there are, we, we have a factory Modell up and running where we can put in the application landscape of a customer and look at it and say, okay, this one is quite easy, we are running it to our modernization street and it runs into a container and from there you start to to untangle actually the hairball of your whole application landscape and started to move those components and you definitely want to prioritize them. And, and that's where you have discussions with the business, which is most valuable to move first and which one to move there. And that's actually what we put in place is the factory model to analyze an application and escape off a customer having the descriptions with those customers and then say, okay, we are going to move these workloads first. Then we are going to analyze the code of these and then we are going to move these and we really start rocking fast, moving their workloads to the cloud and so that they can start enrich those digital channels you want to do that and have. >>Right, well, a great process and I love your analogies by the way you talk about hairball here, I totally get it. Clemens, Thank you for the time today. I appreciate hearing about the Cap Jim and I story and about your partnership with IBM. Thank you very much. >>Thank you very much. >>All right, so what we have learned one thing, the easy thing is the right thing and that's the Cap gemini way of getting things done. You've been watching part of the IBM think initiative here on the cube. Mhm. Yeah, Yeah.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Well, hi everybody, John Walls here on theCUBE as we continue our IBM Think initiative. And today talking with Clemens Reijnen who is the Global CTO Cloud and DevOps Leader at Capgemini. And the Clemens, thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. Good to see you today. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. >> Yeah, tell us a little bit about Capgemini, if you will, first off for our viewers at home who might not be familiar with your services. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit more about your specific responsibilities there. >> So who doesn't know Capgemini in this system in the greater world and the IT world as we lived on a stone. So Capgemini is a worldwide system integrated with offerings in all kinds of spaces and all areas there. My responsibility is mainly around cloud and DevOps and taking care of countries or delivery centers have the right knowledge around cloud and the right capabilities around DevOps. And to support our customers and with their journey to the cloud into a digital organization. >> Yeah. Everybody's talking about digital these days. >> Everybody yeah. >> And it's magical digital transformation that's occurring, that's been going on for quite some time. What does that look like to you? And when you start defining digital organizations and digital transformations what are the kinds of things that you're talking about with organizations in terms of that kind of migration path? >> Yeah. So it's quite interesting to just start discussion about how does a digital landscape looks like for an organization wants to start transforming to a digital organization. And then when you are looking at that I'm always talking to discretion with business capabilities. An organization wants to create business capabilities either to interact and engage with their workforce and to make them work in the most efficient way. And what they are using for that are all kinds of different digital channels. And those digital channels they can be a mobile app. I'm working with my mobile app to connect with my work. I'm calling, I'm using zoom, I'm using teams and that kind of stuff. We also using chatbots for IT devices. And that's what the normal workforce expect nowadays. All have to have all those digital channels to interact with the business. That's also on the other side, at the customer side and organizations want to engage and grow on the customer site and have their nice interaction there. And again, they are using those digital channels all the different digital channels, maybe IoT, maybe API to interact with those customers to bring them the engagement interaction they really want to have. And in that transformation part definitely they are looking at what kind of challenges I have with working with customers like this and working with my workforce. Now everybody's working from home challenges with maybe the connections and that kind of stuff. But they also started to leverage and that's where the transformation and migration start with their on-prem systems, their legacy systems to move those kinds of capabilities and enrich that with cloud native capabilities to all kinds of enterprise solutions like the ones from IBM for example, to expose that to their digital channels, to their organizations. And that's the landscape, how it looks like. And then we have the discussion with organizations. How do you want to engage with your customers? What kind of digital channels do you need? What are the business systems you have and how can we enrich them and expose them to the outside world with all the enterprise solutions around you. >> And when you talk about a process like this which sounds holistic, right? You're looking at, what do you have? Where do you want to go? What are your business needs? Which all makes great sense. But then all of a sudden you start hitting speed bumps along the way. There are always challenges in terms of deployments There are always challenges in terms of decisions and those things. So what are you hearing again from on the customer side about, what are my pain points? What are my headaches here as I know, I want to make this jump, but how do I get there? And I have these obstacles in my way. >> Yeah, definitely. And the ones I explained already which are underlooked for site and on the customer side. You want to have the engagements there you want to have interactions there. And then you have that whole digital landscape which comes with some interesting challenges. Then how do I implement this landscape in the right scalable way? How do I expose my data in such a way that it is secure? How do I leverage all the capabilities from the platforms I'm using? And how do I make all these moving parts consistent, compliant with the regulations I need to work towards to? How do I make it secure? So those are definitely big enterprise challenges like appliances, security and that kind of stuff but also technology challenges. How do I adopt those kinds of technologies? How do I make it scalable? How do I make it really an integrated solution on its own? So that my platform is not only working for the digital channels we know right now but they are also ready for the digital channels We don't know yet will start to come here. That's the biggest challenges there for me. >> Yeah. I want to get into that a little bit later too. Cause you raised a great point. Well, let's just jump right now. We know what the here now is but you just talked about building for the future building for a more expansive footprint or kinds of capabilities that frankly we're not even aware of right now. So how do you plan for that kind of flexibility that kind of agility when it's a bit unpredictable? >> Yeah. And that's what every organization tries to be agile, flexible, resilient and you need to build your system conform that. And well we normally start with you need to have a clear foundation and a foundation when, for example when you are using the cloud for it every organization is cloud for it. You want to have that foundation in such a way that those digital channels can connect really easy to it. And then the capabilities the business capabilities created are done by product teams product and feature teams are creating those kinds of capabilities on top of that cloud foundation. And in that foundation, you want to put everything in place. What makes it easy for those teams to focus on that business functionality on those business capabilities. You want to make it very easy for them to do it the right thing that I always love to say that that's what you want to put in your cloud foundation. And that's where you are harnessing your security. Every application with learning on the foundation has secure. You are embracing a standard way of working although not every DevOps teams like that they want to be organizing and that kind of stuff. But when you are having 50 or a 100 DevOps teams you'd want to have some kind of standardization and provide them a way. And again, the easy way should be the right way to provide them templates, provide them technologies so that they can really focus very quickly on those kinds of business capabilities. So the cloud foundation is the base that needs to be in place. >> Now, you've been doing this for a long time and the conversation used to be, shall we move to the cloud? Can we move to the cloud? Now it's about how fast can we move to the cloud? How much do we move to the cloud? So looking at that kind of the change in paradigm if you will, what are organizations having to consider in terms of the scale, the depth, the breadth of their offering now, because innovation and as you know, it can happen at a much faster pace than it could have just a very short time ago. >> Yeah. And then I'm reflecting again back to the easy thing should be the right thing. That's what you want to do for your DevOps. >> I love that concept. (laughs) >> And that's where you should focus on as an organization. For example, what we've put in place. We put a lot of standardization, a lot of knowledge in place in what we call in an Inner Source library. And in that Inner Source library, for example we put all kinds of strips, all kinds of templates all kinds of standardization for teams who want to deploy OpenShift on their platform or want to start working with certain cloud packs. That they can set it up very easily conforms the standards of your organization and start moving from there. And then in the cloud foundation, you have your cloud management and the IBM Cloud Manager because organizations are definitely going towards the hybrid scenarios, different organizational or units wants to start using different clouds in there. And also for the migration part you want to have that grow from there. And standardization, Inner Source and having those templates ready, it's key for organizations now to speed up and be ready to start juggling around with workloads now on any cloud where you want to and that's the idea. >> Sure. Now, so Red Hats involved in this she had IBM involved as well obviously your partnership working with them. Talk about that kind of merger of resources, if you will. And in terms of what the value proposition is to your clients at the end of the day to have that kind of firepower working in their behalf. >> Yeah. And that's for example, IBM is for us a very important partner. Definitely on the hybrid multi-cloud scenarios where we can leverage OpenShift on those kinds of platforms for our customers. And we created what I said, templates, scripts. We use the IBM garage projects for it to create deployments for our teams in a kind of self servicing way to deploy those OpenShift clusters on top of the cloud platform of their choice. And then for sure, with the multi-cloud manager from IBM we can manage that actually in the lending zone and that's actually the whole ID. And you want to give the flexibility and the speeds to your DevOps teams to be able to do the right thing is the easy thing. And then manage it from your cloud foundation so that they are comfortable that when they're putting the workloads in that whole multi hybrid cloud platform that it is managed, organized all in the right way. And that that's definitely where IBM Red Hat OpenShift comes in play. And because they have already such a great tool sets ready it really think DevOps. That's what I really like. And also with the migrations, it comes with a lot of DevOps capabilities in there not playing lift shift but also the modelisation immediately in there. And that's what I like about our partnership with IBM is just, they are DevOps in mind also. That's cool. >> Yeah. What about the speed here? Just in general, just about the, almost the pace of change and what's happening in that space cause it used to be these kinds of things took forever. It seemed like or evolutions, transitions were to take a long period of time. It's not the case anymore now that things are happening in relatively lightning speed. So when you're talking with an organization about the kinds of changes they could make and the speed at which they can do that. Marry those up for me and those conversations that you're having. And if I'm a CIO out there and I'm thinking about how am I going to flip this switch? Convince me right now, (Clemens laughing) What are the key factors? And how easy, how right will this be for me? >> So as a CIO, you want to have your scalable and your flexible organization probably at this moment, you're sitting with your on-prem system with probably a very large relational database with several components around there. And now you want to fuel those digital channels there. The great way with IBM with Red Hat is that we can deploy OpenShift container solutions everywhere and then starting to modernize those small components or at that big relational database. And we were at starting to do that, we can do that really at Lightspeed. And there are, we have a factory model up and running, where we can put in the application landscape of a customer and look at it and say, "Okay, this one is quite easy. We are running it to, or modernization street. And it runs into a container." And from there, you start to untangle actually the hair ball of your whole application landscape and starting to move those components. And you definitely want to prioritize them. And that's where you have discussions with the business, which is most valuable to move first and which one to move there. And that's actually what we put in place is the factory model to analyze an application landscape of a customer, having the discussions with those customers and then say, "Okay we are going to move these workloads first. Then we are going to analyze the count of these and then we are going to move these." And we really start rocking fast moving their workloads to the cloud and so that they can start and reach those digital channels you want to do it in half. >> Well, a great process. And I love your analogies by the way you say about hairball there. (Clemens and John laughing) I totally get it. Hey Clemens, thank you for the time today. I appreciate hearing about the Capgemini story and about your partnership with IBM. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> All right. So well, we have learned one thing the easy thing is the right thing and that's the Capgemini way of getting things done. You've been watching part of the IBM Think initiative here on theCUBE. (upbeat music)